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M4ster Hyde testrun46788 8	Posted - 2013.01.29 21:02:00 - [1] - Quote Hello forums. I been around for many months with Dust 514 and have recently picked it back up to play once more. It is MUCH better than what it was. Koodos CCP. Some obvious early problems other than the mechanics, were the "Super Soldiers". Guys with no lives, becoming God of the game overnight. Im sure this was on purpose so that we could test all the good stuff. So lets move on to the BIG PROBLEM with this game: Skill points. Dont get defensive just yet; as a eve player for 6 years, the skill sheet is awesome and a welcome site in a shooter. There are many threads about the problems of the current system, but barely any solutions. Currently CCP is doing daily/weekly sp caps. I think this is wise. BUT eventhough there is a cap, it still doesnt fix the gap between the hard core and casual gamer. So here is the real question. Whenever this game has gone on for a year, and it is 2014, how is a new player ever hope to catch up? Wont this turn noobies away because they know they are garbage compared to even the casual players with no hope of ever catching up? Or taking forever to do so? MY SOLUTION: Do a daily cap. BUT allow those who are not at the max sp, to GRIND up to the max sp. For example: Say the game came out Jan 1st. And the daily cap is 50k sp. Since we start out at 500k sp, at the end of 30 days the new cap would be 2,000,000 sp. The hard core gamers would be getting that daily sp day after day like we are now. So lets say i join in Feb 1st. Im at 500k sp, and many other are at 2m sp. So i would be able to grind sp till i hit that 'max sp' limit. And then i would be on the same playing field. It still took alot of work, and a casual gamer wont grind as often as a hard core gamer. But at least there is incentive. MAX sp is the way to go. Make the max sp increase by w/e # every day. This allows the daily players to win, and also gives guys who get in the game YEARS later comfort knowing that they can gain ground over time.
Disturbingly Bored Universal Allies Inc. 93	Posted - 2013.01.29 21:36:00 - [2] - Quote M4ster Hyde wrote: MAX sp is the way to go. Make the max sp increase by w/e # every day. This allows the daily players to win, and also gives guys who get in the game YEARS later comfort knowing that they can gain ground over time. Love the idea. And honestly, when CCP says that they really are working on a true roll-over system, I think this is exactly what they have in mind. The difference I see is that CCP might have your character's max start on the day it's created, rather than a running total for all time...but I think I like your idea better.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 385	Posted - 2013.01.29 21:36:00 - [3] - Quote that's an interesting idea
Swufy Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 70	Posted - 2013.01.29 21:42:00 - [4] - Quote Your title was a little misleading, but it's a sound idea. No sense in new players feeling as if they're being kept down just for our amusement ~_^.
Full Metal Kitten Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 152	Posted - 2013.01.29 21:50:00 - [5] - Quote M4ster Hyde wrote: Whenever this game has gone on for a year, and it is 2014, how is a new player ever hope to catch up? Wont this turn noobies away because they know they are garbage compared to even the casual players with no hope of ever catching up? Or taking forever to do so? The SP issue is a paper tiger. As a former EVE player you already understand that the skill tree is designed with diminishing rewards. If somebody wants to have marginally better stats at the high end (level 5 skills instead of level 4) instead of more gameplay options, that is their choice. As a squad commander, would you rather have a guy in your squad that is really really good at only one thing? Or a guy who can do multiple things reasonably well? Decisions, decisions. Here is another thing to think about, using EVE as an example. If a 5 year veteran has gone the route of fully spec'ing a shield battleship, what happens when the fleet commander calls for armor battleships? Thats, right. The new guy who has only been playing for a year with a focus on armor is going to be on the front line and the veteran shield battleship is staying at home. My continued advice to everyone is not to worry about max SP, caps, or veterans that are years ahead of you. I guarantee strategic minds will find excellent opportunities for newbros to contribute to a battle.
Squally 160 SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 33	Posted - 2013.01.29 21:52:00 - [6] - Quote Why would a player at this cap ever get a booster then? I understand the idea and like it overall, but it nullifies boosters once you are at the cap. Something i dont think ccp wants. Unless there is a booster and non booster cap.
Orin the Freak Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 334	Posted - 2013.01.29 22:00:00 - [7] - Quote nope. Despite what a few are saying here, the SP cap isn't there to "keep the balance between players", it's there to pace our advancement through gear/the game. If you started 3 years from now, and could grind to have prototype in a few days and max your character in a few months, where is the challenge in that? where is the fun? where is the longevity? the only thing that would do for CCP is make it so only the committed players who are already sticking around stay and play. I don't understand why people keep saying it's for anything other than pacing. I don't care if a player has the same gear as me. I actually want people to be able to be competitive. but to allow someone to grind up to 30 mil or whatever SP would be so broken it wouldn't even be funny. For starters, this game isn't about "letting" people do anything. It's about dedication and investment. It's for this very reason there needs to be a cap on skill points earned, and why I feel that cap should be no more than 500 SP per match beyond the cap. If you let your playerbase advance too quickly, they are going to be bored and moving on to the next game before you can even get your first big "new build" released. Not to mention we are all paying way too much attention to the SP cap. This new SP cap will soon be replaced by a rolling cap, which hopefully will drain every week if you can't fulfull it, or at the very least, not allow people to earn more than a weeks worth of SP. It's not about you having to miss a week or two of SP, it's about the hundreds of thousands of people who will play all day ever day to "be the best", and then get bored with it and move on. CCP needs to stop the pussification of DUST, and start being more like it's older brother. Just because we are console players doesn't mean we can't handle a challenging game. Besides, a challenging FPS would be MORE THAN welcome. look at demon's souls. crazy difficult game... crazy popular. stop trying to speed up Dust because a few tryhards want their mad skills/gear nao, and start telling them exactly what you'd tell someone wanting active SP gains in EVE. We aren't all kids on the PS3, you know.
Full Metal Kitten Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 152	Posted - 2013.01.29 22:13:00 - [8] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: The SP cap isn't there to "keep the balance between players", it's there to pace our advancement through the game. Exactly. For those not familiar with EVE's skill system, it is purely passive. There is nothing you can do to actively earn SP in EVE. I was surprised to find it any different in DUST to be honest, but I understand CCP is reaching out to a different demographic here. Ultimately, there is turnover in the player base and today's newbros become tomorrow's vets. After you reach a minimum level of proficiency, it's not about who has the most skill points, but who can add the most tactical flexibility. I certainly hope you guys can do more than fire a Duvolle assault rifle and drive a milita LAV when we go to war.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.29 22:19:00 - [9] - Quote Squally 160 wrote: Why would a player at this cap ever get a booster then? I understand the idea and like it overall, but it nullifies boosters once you are at the cap. Something i dont think ccp wants. Unless there is a booster and non booster cap. boosters add 50% to the SP you can earn for the day/week/whatever. So the current cap is like 27,000. The post-booster is closer to 40,000 per day
M4ster Hyde testrun46788 8	Posted - 2013.01.29 22:34:00 - [10] - Quote Squally 160 wrote: Why would a player at this cap ever get a booster then? I understand the idea and like it overall, but it nullifies boosters once you are at the cap. Something i dont think ccp wants. Unless there is a booster and non booster cap. If i came in the game a year from now, and the max sp by then would be lets say around... 15m sp. Then i would drop all kinds of aurum for those boosters. The hard core gamers never get aurum. Look at a game like MWO, the hard core gamers never drop real money. The real money comes from casual gamers that dont want to grind as long. If anything, this would get MORE ppl buying the boosters.

M4ster Hyde testrun46788 8	Posted - 2013.01.29 22:38:00 - [11] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: If you let your playerbase advance too quickly, they are going to be bored and moving on to the next game before you can even get your first big "new build" released. Are you implying that ppl will want to play a FPS just because of the grind?? No, ppl will play dust because they will want to take planets, run empires, and destroy enemy alliances. DUST 514 isnt at that point yet, but will be soon. This game is a sandbox, so the stories alone will keep it running. Look at EVE ffs, ppl dont keep playing eve just to watch their skill points slowly climb. They play because they can play w/e role they want to do: diplo, FC, market guru. One day soon Dust will be the same.
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 96	Posted - 2013.01.29 22:42:00 - [12] - Quote I don't get this obsession with new players "catching up" to older ones. This isn't World of Warcraft, being high level doesn't continually make you more powerful. If you have all Vs with your current fit then no amount of additional SP helps. From there you're just making more fits available. So a new player absolutely can catch up, once they have at least one good fit. Shouldn't take more than a couple months.
M4ster Hyde testrun46788 8	Posted - 2013.01.29 22:51:00 - [13] - Quote Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote: I don't get this obsession with new players "catching up" to older ones. This isn't World of Warcraft, being high level doesn't continually make you more powerful. If you have all Vs with your current fit then no amount of additional SP helps. From there you're just making more fits available. So a new player absolutely can catch up, once they have at least one good fit. Shouldn't take more than a couple months. Let me take this at a different angle. Whenever you watch Dust 514 trailers or movies, what do you see? A metic crap ton of flying vehicles, tanks, and flashy lights. When you watch the CCP Dust 514 gameplay trailer what do you see? A dude in a tank in a convoy of 5 tanks going up a road blapping turrets and Remote repping coming out of the sky. Yes, one day this will all happen. But the vets are going to be the ppl flying these while the new bro is stuck training for a decent gun fit for months. And months. While other peeps are flashing toys. EVERY FPS HAS ACCESS TO TOYS. But not Dust. Tbh, the only reason i play FPS's is to drive tanks. Period. I love it. In dust, it will take me litterly months to get into a good tank. And im cool with that. But i see other dudes in tanks already and i think "man, i have to get on and have to play 15 matches a day or else im not going to keep up". Dust feels like a chore tbh. I would rather play some matches every day, and then do my 10 hours of FPS on the weekends like i normally do. This way i dont feel punished if im not spending 2-3 hours playing dust on a monday.
Mark Crusader Much Crying Old Experts 8	Posted - 2013.01.29 23:01:00 - [14] - Quote M4ster Hyde wrote: Dust feels like a chore tbh. I would rather play some matches every day, and then do my 10 hours of FPS on the weekends like i normally do. This way i dont feel punished if im not spending 2-3 hours playing dust on a monday. Then your problem is not with SP caps existing at all, but with the daily cap, which is going away in a day or few and being replaced with a weekly cap so you can power-play to your hearts content on the weekends.
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 96	Posted - 2013.01.29 23:27:00 - [15] - Quote M4ster Hyde wrote: Tbh, the only reason i play FPS's is to drive tanks. Period. I love it. In dust, it will take me litterly months to get into a good tank. And im cool with that. But i see other dudes in tanks already and i think "man, i have to get on and have to play 15 matches a day or else im not going to keep up". Dust feels like a chore tbh. I would rather play some matches every day, and then do my 10 hours of FPS on the weekends like i normally do. I drive a HAV. Until yesterday I hadn't even trained vehicle command. I won't even try to train it up to V for a good while. Don't need it, because a Sica with advanced mods is really all you need. Just train infantry engineering (I think that's what it's called) up to IV and some shield skills (or armor skills if you're the armor type), and you could be a successful HAV driver on a character only a few days old. People always go on about their three million isk prototype HAVs, but that's just so very unnecessary for public games.
Rei Shepard Spectre II 72	Posted - 2013.01.29 23:35:00 - [16] - Quote Quote: Tbh, the only reason i play FPS's is to drive tanks. Period. I love it. In dust, it will take me litterly months to get into a good tank. And im cool with that. But i see other dudes in tanks already and i think "man, i have to get on and have to play 15 matches a day or else im not going to keep up". Dust feels like a chore tbh. I would rather play some matches every day, and then do my 10 hours of FPS on the weekends like i normally do. Ive played a couple of days 6-8 hours, but today i didnt feel like it and only played 2 hours, in the endgame (i play EVE aswell) and fly a 1 Billion ISK Tengu tier 3 Tactical Cruiser that someone who only plays for a month could blow up with a ship worth of 50 Million ISK if i get too careless. Dust just cant be grinded hardcore 24/7 so that you can drive that tank tommorow, because if you grind it like that youll be bored in 2 weeks flat.
Centurion mkII SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 10	Posted - 2013.01.29 23:56:00 - [17] - Quote The balance achieved with this skill system with new vs old is specialization. This has been discused for years in eve. The older player can do a wider spread of things then the new player but the new player can specialize. I with 4 million sp ( just an example ) could do a max gallente hav and caldari have ( not real numbers ) while someone with 2.5 could do a max gallente hav but no caldari hav skills. We would be equal toe toe in Gallente havs but I would be able to do caldari have aswell. Also its balanced by diminishimg returns on skill points vs effect. Each higher level is a 5% increase but the cost vs level 1 and 5 are huge but the effect is the same.
SILENTSAM 69 Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 421	Posted - 2013.01.30 00:13:00 - [18] - Quote They are going to give is a rollover cap. So if you miss your cap it will rollover onto the next cap. This way you can always catch up if you fall behind.
Ian Razzledazzle Kilrathi Knights 4	Posted - 2013.01.30 00:37:00 - [19] - Quote I'm loving the weekly cap, as a parent it means I'm not worried about having to find time to play every day or feeling left behind. That being said, I'm not ever too concerned with the level that my competition is at. I'm currently in a heated debate over a guy thinking that dominating new players and padding his stats makes him elite. That's not fun. Challenges are fun. But that's the problem with the First Person Shooter scene today isn't it. Call of Duty has made it possible for you to be rewarded constantly and not have to be good at a game by making it easy for everybody. This issue escalates higher than that, in a society where being mediocre is acceptable, and coming in 8th place is ok when you're still getting a ribbon like everybody else. Until everybody is okay with having to strive and struggle to be better, not everybody will understand the point of games like EVE and Dust 514. It's a game that rewards you through an actual experience, not experience points. And regardless, a group of experienced and skillful FPS players who play all their games together can still all start playing Dust at the same time, and jump into a game and I guarantee you, challenge a group of players who don't play as well as a team but have much better gear and higher skill levels, and the outcome would still be a toss up, teamwork over individual ability all day of the week I'm afraid
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.30 00:51:00 - [20] - Quote Ian Razzledazzle wrote: I'm loving the weekly cap, as a parent it means I'm not worried about having to find time to play every day or feeling left behind. That being said, I'm not ever too concerned with the level that my competition is at. I'm currently in a heated debate over a guy thinking that dominating new players and padding his stats makes him elite. That's not fun. Challenges are fun. this pretty much illustrates why my favorite targets in EVE have guns. But I don't feel sympathy for the miners, and feel no need to chastise the suicide gankers in my corp/alliance/coalition. I quit trying to explain how to stop them but be told to shut up because it lessens ISK/hour. Just because it's not my thing doesn't mean I'm going to protect you from the sharks. I prefer it when there's imperfects on the field in DUST because it means I can't be lazy. and I do kill those bastards. Maybe not as often as they get me, but I still get them. But I have no problem with people who are concentrating on pubstomping newbies. it means they aren't realizing that i've caught up to them with an MH-82 or GEK-38. rolling newberries isn't much of a challenge. But I'm not going to lie and say I'm so shithot that i roll out 30/1 KDR on them. newberries tend to rapidly focus fire after they see 2-3 guys fall down in rapid order. I applaud this behavior.

Ghost-33 ShootBreakStab 108	Posted - 2013.01.30 01:21:00 - [21] - Quote Can an EVE player of 1 year ever catch up to an EVE player of 1.5 years?
Centurion mkII SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 10	Posted - 2013.01.30 01:24:00 - [22] - Quote Ghost-33 wrote: Can an EVE player of 1 year ever catch up to an EVE player of 1.5 years? If he has +4 implants and more focused remaps (eve is passive gain attributes effect learning time of certain skills. For instance someones good at science and another art) yes. Lets say it takes 1.5 years to be the best at a Rokh (eve ship) assuming the follow the same skill plan the 1 year will be missing skills but have others at 5. If the 1 year player gets the most important ( time/gain) to 5 and the less important at 4 they will be very similar. Edit: I want to point out in theory it might be possible to have more SP if they didnt use remaps , had no implants ect. Just highly unlikely. It doesn't matter though if he has a years worth of skills in mining and you have a years worth of skill in pvp. He's going down.
Odiain Suliis ZionTCD Legacy Rising 112	Posted - 2013.01.30 01:26:00 - [23] - Quote Ghost-33 wrote: Can an EVE player of 1 year ever catch up to an EVE player of 1.5 years? Nope, unless that 1.5y player stops playing and keeping up the skill que. But then again, that 1y player has, depending on situation, every as bit chance to beat or even be better then that 1.5y player. It's not about max SP, butr how you one is allocated those. What kind of situation you are and if that plays to your advantages.
Odiain Suliis ZionTCD Legacy Rising 112	Posted - 2013.01.30 01:27:00 - [24] - Quote Centurion mkII wrote: Ghost-33 wrote: Can an EVE player of 1 year ever catch up to an EVE player of 1.5 years? If he has +4 implants and more focused remaps (eve is passive gain attributes effect learning time of certain skills. For instance someones good at science and another art) yes. Well this way yes, but that requires some expensive pod to have.
Centurion mkII SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 10	Posted - 2013.01.30 01:28:00 - [25] - Quote Odiain Suliis wrote: Centurion mkII wrote: Ghost-33 wrote: Can an EVE player of 1 year ever catch up to an EVE player of 1.5 years? If he has +4 implants and more focused remaps (eve is passive gain attributes effect learning time of certain skills. For instance someones good at science and another art) yes. Well this way yes, but that requires some expensive pod to have. I dont think +4s are expensive infact there a pretty standard requirement imo. Disclaimer: I live in high sec and use 4s/5s depending on if its my main or alt. In null ( assuming I don't have good income ) or low id probably stick with 3s.
Ghost-33 ShootBreakStab 108	Posted - 2013.01.30 01:30:00 - [26] - Quote Odiain Suliis wrote: Ghost-33 wrote: Can an EVE player of 1 year ever catch up to an EVE player of 1.5 years? Nope, unless that 1.5y player stops playing and keeping up the skill que. But then again, that 1y player has, depending on situation, every as bit chance to beat or even be better then that 1.5y player. It's not about max SP, butr how you one is allocated those. What kind of situation you are and if that plays to your advantages. That's probably the best point to keep in mind. There's no need to try and catch up or surpass anyone in skill points. At its root DUST is still an FPS and you can kill just as well with tactics as you can with equipment. Plus in the future unless Corp battles are taken you wont have to worry about low levels against high levels with the matchmaking.
Full Metal Kitten Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 152	Posted - 2013.01.30 01:31:00 - [27] - Quote Ghost-33 wrote: Can an EVE player of 1 year ever catch up to an EVE player of 1.5 years? In total SP? No. However, the good news is it doesn't matter! Skill progression has diminishing returns. In EVE as in DUST you want pilots and mercs on your team that have multiple game play options, not one really really good one. PVP is all about counters. You can't just do one thing really well and be successful. This is a simplified answer, but hopefully you see my intent.
Centurion mkII SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 10	Posted - 2013.01.30 01:35:00 - [28] - Quote Ghost-33 wrote: Odiain Suliis wrote: Ghost-33 wrote: Can an EVE player of 1 year ever catch up to an EVE player of 1.5 years? Nope, unless that 1.5y player stops playing and keeping up the skill que. But then again, that 1y player has, depending on situation, every as bit chance to beat or even be better then that 1.5y player. It's not about max SP, butr how you one is allocated those. What kind of situation you are and if that plays to your advantages. That's probably the best point to keep in mind. There's no need to try and catch up or surpass anyone in skill points. At its root DUST is still an FPS and you can kill just as well with tactics as you can with equipment. Plus in the future unless Corp battles are taken you wont have to worry about low levels against high levels with the matchmaking. I got to agree with you in eve its more about numbers. You lock you engage and your trying to see who's setup wins first. There are of-course other things to do like play with range ect but my point is eve combat is more automated. Having shield control 5 isn't as important if someones shooting you in the back while you run down a LONG hall way and have no cover.


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