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I switched my vote to option 5 for SP poll and why i think you should too.

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Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 18:26:00 - [1] - Quote I just posted this proto's thread https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=53519&find=unread It can be found here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=495754#post495754 but i made my own thread because i think i provide a reasoned argument that may get overlooked because of just large amount of text. I apologize if you feel this is spam but please take the time to read it in its entirety. Please don't let my tags bias you and just read with an open mind, i think you will be convinced by the end of the text. I just switched my vote because originally i thought option 5 was for an unrestricted SP gain with no CAP of any kind. I think the confusion is coming from no CAP and no Soft CAP. I think people mistakenly think that option 5 will be no cap of any kind when it clearly means that the soft CAP will not have a restriction on how much you can earn in terms of SP but it is still 1WP=1SP. It's a weekly cap + no limit on soft CAP. However from i understand the soft cap still means 1WP=1SP. Well if thats the case i think that is fine because in most Skirmish matches people wont get much higher than 1000 SP avg WP for me is about 1200-1400 WP. I have had games of 2000+ and reached 3000WP once. In the larger WP games it was because it was a large map with multiple objectives and multiple things to hack. Another thing to consider is redline matches DIMINISH your WP potential since once a team is redlined there is hardly anything to generate WP except resupply, revive, repair, kills, assists. Sounds like a lot but against a team that is redlined its not like there will be much need for those things. And kills/assists will be fought over for by the entire team. When the match is hotly contested then WP gains is easier but that means you have two relatively equal teams and there is a back and forth that deserves a better SP reward by way of more WP that you gain from rehacking stuff. But this scenario is far and few between when you have a team of vets vs noobs. But vets vs vets and NOOBS vs NOOBS offer the greatest WP generation and both instances allow for a fair SP acquisition. Of course if one squad has a tank and proceed to destroy every installation that is a lot WP that can be hogged by that individual 100-120 WP per installation adds up fast. But even then it often results in a redline situation and the player isnt likely to get more than 2000SP in a skirmish match which lasts roughly twice as long as ambush where top players are consistently earning in the 800-1200 WP range every game. So it ultimately works out. Everyone saying they get 4000+ SP games on a regular forget that is before they hit the cap which provides SP for WP plus time spent in game. Once the cap hits the soft cap will ONLY be 1WP=1SP, im sorry nobody here is earning more than 2000WP/game on a regular basis unless the games are very hotly contested. If you are seeing this then you are either playing other vets or more likely not playing all that well because hardcore vets limit your WP potential by way of redlining anyway. This mean casual players are more likely to benefit since they are the most likely to be involved in matches that result in volatility where as vets will often get a team redlined and then be limited to how much more WP they will gain. Ultimately the way the game dishes out WP and how greater skill against a team of less skill can actually hurt your WP generation this serves as an inherent check and balance against vets players while helping casual and newer players. In conclusion based on my above arguments it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY a person will earn more than 1000 SP per game in ambush and also balances skirmish where 2x time spent in match gives 2x potential SP on avg instead of a blanket 1000SP. Think about those numbers for a second you know i am right. If option 2 goes into effect there will be no point to skirmish once cap is hit since 1000SP soft cap in either mode makes ambush more attractive. Whereas no limit on Soft cap other than the 1WP=1SP (this is what option 5 means) corrects for the time imbalance between ambush and skirmish while still giving an avg of 1000SP per 7min cycle. I base this on the fact that most of my ambush matches last me about 7 mins or less Skirmish match fully redlined lasts about 10-12 minuts.(These matches will very unlikely see greater than 2000WP for the top players in the match) Matches that last longer will generate higher WP and thus more SP but its still avg out to 1000SP/7mins of game time 3000WP=3000SP but ill bet everything that match lasted close to 20-full 25 minutes. Do you see how option 5 balances the time difference between both modes while still playing close to the 1000WP/match limit option 2 would have across all game modes?
Salazar Skye-fire Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 85	Posted - 2013.01.26 18:36:00 - [2] - Quote nope still going with #2 cant hack it with the rest of us theres always COD, i hear they give you unlocks like every few minutes now. if your attention span is that lacking call a friend over and have them jingle keys in front of you every now and then.
Jeremiah ambromot Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 8	Posted - 2013.01.26 18:38:00 - [3] - Quote No because it will allow those who play very often to gain a huge advantage against those that are able to play until cap, and an unreachable gap for those who play less often. High sp=\=high skill but with a large enough gap in sp an average player could beat a good player most if the time. Now once we have a large enough pool of players who can not skill taller but only wider it could be reasonable to allow new players to catch up, but currently it would give others too much of an advantage. Thank you for trying to be thorough and explain yourself though gunner.
BobThe843CakeMan BurgezzE.T.F 132	Posted - 2013.01.26 18:43:00 - [4] - Quote Jeremiah ambromot wrote: No because it will allow those who play very often to gain a huge advantage against those that are able to play until cap, and an unreachable gap for those who play less often. High sp=\=high skill but with a large enough gap in sp an average player could beat a good player most if the time. Now once we have a large enough pool of players who can not skill taller but only wider it could be reasonable to allow new players to catch up, but currently it would give others too much of an advantage. Thank you for trying to be thorough and explain yourself though gunner. They still will. A cap isn't going to stop them. People will always be better than you and get used to it. But have to limit on the soft cap at least lets you get what yo deserve. 1k a match is already enough to grind for. But making it have no limits will let people get more for playing better.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 18:50:00 - [5] - Quote Jeremiah ambromot wrote: No because it will allow those who play very often to gain a huge advantage against those that are able to play until cap, and an unreachable gap for those who play less often. High sp=\=high skill but with a large enough gap in sp an average player could beat a good player most if the time. Now once we have a large enough pool of players who can not skill taller but only wider it could be reasonable to allow new players to catch up, but currently it would give others too much of an advantage. Thank you for trying to be thorough and explain yourself though gunner. Yes but you do see how option 2 would allow for that as well right? What im trying to say is that option 5 doesnt allow for an unchecked level of SP gain, it merely ends up balancing the time difference spent between ambush and skirmish. There is only so much WP you can earn. Just to make sure i wasn't wrong about the differnce im requoting excerpts of the original dev poll found here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52633&find=unread 1)Daily cap with an increased soft cap 2)Weekly cap with an increased soft cap 3)No changes to the current system (daily cap + low soft cap) 4) Daily cap with no limit on the soft cap 5) Weekly cap with no limit on the soft cap The increased soft cap would entail rewarding one skill point for each warpoint after the normal daily or weekly cap has been hit, up to the increased soft cap (currently 50 SP, we will raise it to 1000 SP per match). This is to provide an incentive towards playing well even after the cap has been reached and make the play experience after hitting the cap better. *We are also considering another alternative, which is to not* have a cap (of 1k) on the soft cap, so, after weekly cap is hit, you still get 1 SP per WP at end of match**. We would like to hear which of these you like better as well (cap on the soft cap vs no cap on soft cap). So it still limits SP based on WP but again as ive laid out the WP gain in an ambush match is rarely greater than 1000WP. In skirmish its closer to 2000WP but you spend twice the time so if a person played two ambush games they would spend about the same time as one skirmish match. So then if option 2 goes into effect why would any "grinders" play anything but ambush. And ultimately that disparity will still exist regardless of option 2 or option 5. Option 5 simply corrects for the increased time spent in skirmish is all im trying to say. But thank you for your responses and i appreciate your concerns. Edit--Also from what i understand by weekly cap is that it will remain hard cap like we have now with daily so no diminishing returns. The only difference between option 2 and 5 is the restriction on soft cap but as ive laid out that difference is almost negligible and ultimately limits players who want to play skirmish after they hit their cap but also want to grind and even then it isnt any different that 1000SP limit other than it correct for the time spent in skirmish.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 18:55:00 - [6] - Quote BobThe843CakeMan wrote: Jeremiah ambromot wrote: No because it will allow those who play very often to gain a huge advantage against those that are able to play until cap, and an unreachable gap for those who play less often. High sp=\=high skill but with a large enough gap in sp an average player could beat a good player most if the time. Now once we have a large enough pool of players who can not skill taller but only wider it could be reasonable to allow new players to catch up, but currently it would give others too much of an advantage. Thank you for trying to be thorough and explain yourself though gunner. They still will. A cap isn't going to stop them. People will always be better than you and get used to it. But have to limit on the soft cap at least lets you get what yo deserve. 1k a match is already enough to grind for. But making it have no limits will let people get more for playing better. Even without the soft cap 1WP=1SP mean nobody is going to be earning more than 1000SP/ambush match 2000SP/skirmish match since nobody earns that much more WP in a match at least not on avg of course there will be outliers but they are far and few in between and ive explained under what circumstances when that would happen. Ive seen 1500WP in ambush but thats rare and ive never seen 2000WP or anything ridiculous like that in ambush, anybody else? In skirmish ive never seen score greater than 2000WP on a regular basis and if they did it was a match that lasted quite a long time. So ultimately all the no soft cap does is adjust for the time disparity spent between ambush and skirmish.
BobThe843CakeMan BurgezzE.T.F 132	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:04:00 - [7] - Quote Gunner Nightingale wrote: BobThe843CakeMan wrote: Jeremiah ambromot wrote: No because it will allow those who play very often to gain a huge advantage against those that are able to play until cap, and an unreachable gap for those who play less often. High sp=\=high skill but with a large enough gap in sp an average player could beat a good player most if the time. Now once we have a large enough pool of players who can not skill taller but only wider it could be reasonable to allow new players to catch up, but currently it would give others too much of an advantage. Thank you for trying to be thorough and explain yourself though gunner. They still will. A cap isn't going to stop them. People will always be better than you and get used to it. But have to limit on the soft cap at least lets you get what yo deserve. 1k a match is already enough to grind for. But making it have no limits will let people get more for playing better. Even without the soft cap 1WP=1SP mean nobody is going to be earning more than 1000SP/ambush match 2000SP/skirmish match since nobody earns that much more WP in a match at least not on avg of course there will be outliers but they are far and few in between and ive explained under what circumstances when that would happen. Ive seen 1500WP in ambush but thats rare and ive never seen 2000WP or anything ridiculous like that in ambush, anybody else? In skirmish ive never seen score greater than 2000WP on a regular basis and if they did it was a match that lasted quite a long time. So ultimately all the no soft cap does is adjust for the time disparity spent between ambush and skirmish. +1 i agree.
Sir Meode Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 317	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:09:00 - [8] - Quote 1wp=1sp up to 1000SP max a game, it is very easy to get 2500+wp a match in Skirmish even if the enemy is camped in there red line so just leaving it 1wp=1sp is a bad idea
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:17:00 - [9] - Quote Sir Meode wrote: 1wp=1sp up to 1000SP max a game, it is very easy to get 2500+wp a match in Skirmish even if the enemy is camped in there red line so just leaving it 1wp=1sp is a bad idea In a match that last 2x as long in skirmish if not longer than a typical ambush match. where it is even easier to earn a 1000WP every game. So all it will do is drive the grinders and vets into ambush for their WP. Maybe 1.5-2WP=1SP? Also i think "very easy to get 2500WP" a match is a bit of an overstatement and certainly doesnt reflect the avg WP gain from a typical redline skirmish match, doable yes, constantly and consistently no. 2000WP yes that is in the realm of constant and consistent every SKIRMISH match. But again skirmish last TWICE as long. See how all it really does is correct for the time disparity between the two game modes whereas option 2 will only result in people moving to ambush. (A mode that more noobs play because its TDM and everybody noob wants to play TDM).
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:20:00 - [10] - Quote I see your point on how it will help keep skirmish a playable mode once cap is reached. My issue is with the gap option #5 presents, no I will not deny that option #2 still presents the issue it is just on a smaller scale than #5. I personally think that there should be a benefit for the hardcore to play nonstop everyday it is not fair for the not to be one really. They put in the time why don't they get something out of it. I want there to be no cap on the amount you can get, I just want the amount you can get to be limited so you do out run a lot of people. As far as the WP gain per match I have a different opinion there. Personally I have a bad game if I get less than 1500 SP. I know that a lot of the Vets probably feel the same way. I usually run skirmish so it actually fits you 1000 WP per min on average not always though. These numbers can actually get really high with good Squad Commands. My squad actually had a game the other day where we together earned right under 9000 WP and it was a short game only like 9 min or so. But it was a match of smart farming where we let them hold one objective and they kept funneling out of it. Again I see your point I just feel like #2 will keep the gap smaller and that is why I picked it and, Skirmish won't die hopefully because people prefer to play it.

Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:26:00 - [11] - Quote The soft cap isn't really a cap at all because it never "caps" out. It's really just a throttle on gains above the time in match SP cap. So the only difference between this and "no cap at all" that we are dead set against as a community, is that you don't get the match time bonus after a certain amount of SP (the so called "soft cap"). The proposed "no cap" was also 1WP = 1SP without any time in match bonus. So option #5 is precisely what everyone is up in arms about sans match time SP! As such it will still encourage constant grinding, allow no-lifers to pull way ahead, and imbalance the player base before it matures enough not to adversely affect the DUST/EVE connection. The 1,000 SP throttle on WP conversion is actually pretty high. Anyone but beast players don't get much more than that in any one match, and it's 1,500 SP with a booster. A no-lifer can still grind a huge advantage with that. Nobody needs to max out the entire skill tree so fast that they need unlimited WP/SP conversion. The 1,000 limit is a plenty reward for plying another match on to of the ISK, and hopefully we will have many other reasons to play in the future.
Alaunryna Hun'ana Algintal Core Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:40:00 - [12] - Quote Be honest. The REAL reason you switched to option 5 is because Protoman told you too.
Scurvy Granger ZionTCD Legacy Rising 75	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:45:00 - [13] - Quote Another one... I responded to you in proto's thread. Look at all the people arguing in favor of option 5, it's the "hardcore" players, and a lot of the time they even state they want it so they don't "get punished" for playing good. It has nothing to do with being punished, if they wanted to punish you for playing good then they would go to a weekly cap with no soft cap and I bet you'd still play anyway at least until you get tired of crushing newberries. All the "hardcore" players(players that have ungodly amounts of time to spend on games) know that option 5 will allow them to get WAY ahead of everyone else which is why they are arguing in favor of it. We understand you don't want to get less gain for playing the same, but we don't want to fall so far behind you because we have a lot going on in our lives that when we do get on we can't even take ten steps without dying. I took a 3 month break and came back about a week ago. I am already so far behind and when I face one of those "hardcore" players it doesn't matter how much skill I have, their rifles recoil less, do mare damage, are deadlier than anything I can put up. Their armor takes less damage, has better equipment, and has better shields so my inferior weapons and armor mean I'm dead. Maybe option 5 will be the way to go in 1-2 years when the "hardcore" vets have found other interests to occupy their time, but implementing it right now would only create a Grand Canyon between them and new players.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:46:00 - [14] - Quote Skihids wrote: The soft cap isn't really a cap at all because it never "caps" out. It's really just a throttle on gains above the time in match SP cap. So the only difference between this and "no cap at all" that we are dead set against as a community, is that you don't get the match time bonus after a certain amount of SP (the so called "soft cap"). The proposed "no cap" was also 1WP = 1SP without any time in match bonus. So option #5 is precisely what everyone is up in arms about sans match time SP! As such it will still encourage constant grinding, allow no-lifers to pull way ahead, and imbalance the player base before it matures enough not to adversely affect the DUST/EVE connection. The 1,000 SP throttle on WP conversion is actually pretty high. Anyone but beast players don't get much more than that in any one match, and it's 1,500 SP with a booster. A no-lifer can still grind a huge advantage with that. Nobody needs to max out the entire skill tree so fast that they need unlimited WP/SP conversion. The 1,000 limit is a plenty reward for plying another match on to of the ISK, and hopefully we will have many other reasons to play in the future. Okay again then explain to me how this limits anyone from just playing ambush matches where earning 1000WP is a regular occurence for every beast player in a shorter duration of time. Few if ANY earn more than that and certainly NOT ON A REGULAR BASIS. All option 5 does is allows somebody who PLAY SKIRMISH to get the same kind of consistency in terms of time spent in the gamemode. Like i said nobody is earning 1500-2000WP in ambush, they get them in skirmish and more so they get b/w 2000-3000WP and that is on a match that will often last 2-3x an ambush match. So again if a person who wants to grind as we all know they will where will they go? Option 5 does have a throttle built in its the 1WP=1SP throttle, there are only so many WP's you can earn in a match and the matches where you earn more than 1000WP are skirmish matches which last longer and has more ways of earning WP.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:46:00 - [15] - Quote Salazar Skye-fire wrote: nope still going with #2 cant hack it with the rest of us theres always COD, i hear they give you unlocks like every few minutes now. if your attention span is that lacking call a friend over and have them jingle keys in front of you every now and then. Wait, not to call you out or anything but did you actually read the entire post? Or did someone jingle keys in front of you and distract you? Basically what he is saying is that the two options are very similar. But that the 1000 sp per match soft cap after the initial soft cap will just funnel more players into ambush because sp earnings over time mean that you can potentially gain 2000 sp in ambush in the time it takes to make 1000 sp in skirmish, if the new 1000 soft cap after initial cap is put into place. I am not sure it really matters in the long run. One because it is temporary, and two because outside of a very few full time dedicated sp grinders, people play the different modes based on a lot of different reasons, not just for the SP. But I agree with the OP and chose 5 to begin with because I think it is fair, reasonable, and makes sense to award players for their WP earning after they reach the cap. Based on their gameplay. Adding another cap after the cap seems like a lot of fussing around for no real reason. And I think players should be able to bring in SP after the cap playing the mode they like the best, based on how well they do. End of story. It has nothing to do with "unlocks" and many players who are maxing out SP have long term goals of being the most competitive merc possible in the huge universe of warefare that we are all looking forward to. (edit* or have a favorite fitting that they were able to get easily in days gone by and just want to get back to that favorite fitting...) Maybe a few corps just want to roll around in tanks pub stomping, but many other mercs want a competive edge for eventual EVE contracts, tournaments, or maybe they just want to rule the galaxy from the ground... Edit* For the record I am not a "hardcore" player. I spend a lot of time on DUST and have a couple different characters, but that is my own f'n business. Also I kind of suck at FPS games compared to a lot of players. I rarely earn 1000 sp anyway. Much less 2000 plus. But the whole SP cap drama is really more or less irrelevant. I feel SP should require patience and hard work and careful planning to accumulate and use wisely. Someone's always going to have more SP though. And if SP is the end all be all of DUST the game has far bigger problems than whether or not there is a flat cap at 1000 per game no matter the game mode or if it is just based on WP...
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:47:00 - [16] - Quote Alaunryna Hun'ana wrote: Be honest. The REAL reason you switched to option 5 is because Protoman told you too. No i can think for myself thank you.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:47:00 - [17] - Quote Also I don't feel that skirmish will not die because people will hit cap at separate times. That combined with people will still play skirmish because they prefer it for their play style will keep skirmish alive at the end of the week. Yes, Skirmish will die down towards Monday but, we are coming from a game that on a weekly cap was kinda dead at the end of the SP week anyway.
Scurvy Granger ZionTCD Legacy Rising 75	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:57:00 - [18] - Quote Goat of Dover wrote: But it was a match of smart farming where we let them hold one objective and they kept funneling out of it. And this is what I'm talking about with "hardcore" players finding a way to exploit the no SP soft cap. They will leave an objective or allow an objective to be taken in order to boost their SP intake. I've done the same with my squads in the past so I know it will be seen more often if there is no SP soft cap. Hardcore players should be rewarded for playing more is saying that people that cannot play more often even though they want to should be punished. Where is the line drawn? I'm happy you have so much free time and don't have to work for a living but honestly telling me that since I have a family, a job, and less time for games that I should get destroyed every time I decide to play this game is worse than taking about half of your SP gain away. You'll still get more than me since you play more but at least it will be awhile before you can one shot me every time I appear.(I know one-shot is an exaggeration, but you get the idea)
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:58:00 - [19] - Quote Scurvy Granger wrote: Another one... I responded to you in proto's thread. Look at all the people arguing in favor of option 5, it's the "hardcore" players, and a lot of the time they even state they want it so they don't "get punished" for playing good. It has nothing to do with being punished, if they wanted to punish you for playing good then they would go to a weekly cap with no soft cap and I bet you'd still play anyway at least until you get tired of crushing newberries. All the "hardcore" players(players that have ungodly amounts of time to spend on games) know that option 5 will allow them to get WAY ahead of everyone else which is why they are arguing in favor of it. We understand you don't want to get less gain for playing the same, but we don't want to fall so far behind you because we have a lot going on in our lives that when we do get on we can't even take ten steps without dying. I took a 3 month break and came back about a week ago. I am already so far behind and when I face one of those "hardcore" players it doesn't matter how much skill I have, their rifles recoil less, do mare damage, are deadlier than anything I can put up. Their armor takes less damage, has better equipment, and has better shields so my inferior weapons and armor mean I'm dead. Maybe option 5 will be the way to go in 1-2 years when the "hardcore" vets have found other interests to occupy their time, but implementing it right now would only create a Grand Canyon between them and new players. I havent looked at your response in the other thread yet, but i wlll Soon TM. Again please explain to me or debunk the argument i have made that the 1000SP soft cap per match has any effect on a hardcore player other than they will simply farm ambush instead of skirmish since the SP gains in ambush will come at quicker clips since avg ambush match with HC player last 4-7mins and an avg skirmish match lasts 7-12mins in which you can POTENTIALLY earn upwards of 3000WP but is more CONSISTENTLY AROUND 2000WP. Just for clarification again, option 5 is not a removal of a CAP ENTIRELY it is WEEKLY CAP +NO SOFT CAP BUT 1WP=1SP. So again the throttle exists based on potential WP gain which again is LiMITED by GAMEMODE and the mode that allows a larger potential LAST LONGER. Im not trying to be standoffish and i really do understand your concern, all im saying is when you look at the two options side by side you realize all option 2 does is throttles players and will move them into Ambush. As for why HC players are choosing 5 and casuals are choosing 2 is because they have misunderstood this fundamental and nuianced difference and think oh gee someone can earn upwards of 2-3K SP a match but they forget to account that the matches in which that is possible are 2-3x longer than an Ambush match where if option 2 is in effect is where they will all go. I think people think that 3K WP is somehow the avg WP for a HC player in skirmish when i know its closer to 2K. Do outliers exist of course they do but they are outliers for a reason. So i ask you again to re-read my post and look at the two options side by side a bit more thoroughly you will see that there isnt this huge unchecked difference between the two and where it is a difference is in how it hurts players who want to grind and yet still play skrimish. Thank you Now an effective comprimise would be to simply raise the SOFT CAP for SKIRMISH to 2000 and we will have addressed my main issue with option 2.
Daddrobit Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 277	Posted - 2013.01.26 19:59:00 - [20] - Quote 1000k+ in ambush is more than doable, and especially on a consistent basis. Drop in a (well fitted) blaster tank, collect your 30 kills, boom, 1500 points right there. Now frago that person, it's now 1800 points, add on a booster, 2700 points, and that's on kills alone, not including any vehicles, installations, or assists you may accrue. Since that player was able to dominate in his tank, that match ended faster, allowing him to get into his next match and repeat ad nauseam. Simply alternate between driver and gunner, (where as a gunner I went 31-0 two nights ago) between matches and you're good to go. Yeah, there's still going to the /occasional/ match where you face resistance, or maybe only put up 20 kills, but even 20 kills can net you 2100 with a frago and booster. Option #2.

Tenchu-13 What The French 76	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:03:00 - [21] - Quote Nah thanks, I voted and I know why I voted for what i chose. Dont need someone reminding me why 'he' thinks I should vote for something else.
Scurvy Granger ZionTCD Legacy Rising 75	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:05:00 - [22] - Quote Goat of Dover wrote: Also I don't feel that skirmish will not die because people will hit cap at separate times. That combined with people will still play skirmish because they prefer it for their play style will keep skirmish alive at the end of the week. Yes, Skirmish will die down towards Monday but, we are coming from a game that on a weekly cap was kinda dead at the end of the SP week anyway. Skirmish will not die down towards Mondays for one simple reason. You hit your cap during the week using Skirmish then play some ambush to best utilize time/SP gain, then on the weekends you'll join your corp matches and try to take control of planets, or right now better your faction in FW. You don't earn SP in corp matches anyway so there ya go problem solved. Option 2 is the best option anyway.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:05:00 - [23] - Quote Deleted as it has since been addressed and resolved.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:07:00 - [24] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: 1000k+ in ambush is more than doable, and especially on a consistent basis. Drop in a (well fitted) blaster tank, collect your 30 kills, boom, 1500 points right there. Now frago that person, it's now 1800 points, add on a booster, 2700 points, and that's on kills alone, not including any vehicles, installations, or assists you may accrue. Since that player was able to dominate in his tank, that match ended faster, allowing him to get into his next match and repeat ad nauseam. Simply alternate between driver and gunner, (where as a gunner I went 31-0 two nights ago) between matches and you're good to go. Yeah, there's still going to the /occasional/ match where you face resistance, or maybe only put up 20 kills, but even 20 kills can net you 2100 with a frago and booster. Option #2. Thanks for the numbers I was getting to those glad someone got to them before i did. Now I will state that this only applies to the best players since they are the ones that put up huge kills in ambush. But the best players are most of your hardcore population so that is a good reason for them to go for option #5.
Jotun Hiem Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 412	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:08:00 - [25] - Quote I went six and four with a logi fit in an ambush yesterday and still nabbed 1200 points. A 1:1 conversion soft cap would royally screw over anyone who didn't play all the time.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:10:00 - [26] - Quote Gunner Nightingale wrote: Scurvy Granger wrote: Goat of Dover wrote: But it was a match of smart farming where we let them hold one objective and they kept funneling out of it. And this is what I'm talking about with "hardcore" players finding a way to exploit the no SP soft cap. They will leave an objective or allow an objective to be taken in order to boost their SP intake. I've done the same with my squads in the past so I know it will be seen more often if there is no SP soft cap. Hardcore players should be rewarded for playing more is saying that people that cannot play more often even though they want to should be punished. Where is the line drawn? I'm happy you have so much free time and don't have to work for a living but honestly telling me that since I have a family, a job, and less time for games that I should get destroyed every time I decide to play this game is worse than taking about half of your SP gain away. You'll still get more than me since you play more but at least it will be awhile before you can one shot me every time I appear.(I know one-shot is an exaggeration, but you get the idea) Hey jerkoff i think ive been more than polite and reasoned in my posts. Sorry you don't have time and you feel the need to peg me as a no lifer. Hate to break it to you but 1. Have a Medical Degree, yeah im a doctor eat it son!! 2. Actively pursuing a residency program as we speak. 3. Am a Clinical Research Scientist in Cardiac Electrophysiology(the electrical rhythm of the heart). 4. Have an active life outside of gaming(golf, dating, family(not my own but brothers, cousins, nieces with plenty of socialization) etc. 5. Just have a freakishly awesome quality of life. 6. Time management skills to balance it all. Next time you make assumptions just remember the cliche "When you assume you make an ass out of you and me". Gunner I don't think he was hitting at you that was more of a hit at the hardcore population. It was just a very well laid our attack at the population that it would hit anyone of them that read it and some of the people who were not that way. I think this because honestly it hit me the same way but I know that I do not fall into that category of hardcore. I do play a lot but I don't even hit my cap every day only most.
Arramakaian Eka Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 363	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:10:00 - [27] - Quote BobThe843CakeMan wrote: Jeremiah ambromot wrote: No because it will allow those who play very often to gain a huge advantage against those that are able to play until cap, and an unreachable gap for those who play less often. High sp=\=high skill but with a large enough gap in sp an average player could beat a good player most if the time. Now once we have a large enough pool of players who can not skill taller but only wider it could be reasonable to allow new players to catch up, but currently it would give others too much of an advantage. Thank you for trying to be thorough and explain yourself though gunner. They still will. A cap isn't going to stop them. People will always be better than you and get used to it. But have to limit on the soft cap at least lets you get what yo deserve. 1k a match is already enough to grind for. But making it have no limits will let people get more for playing better. It's not black and white as you'd like it to be.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:13:00 - [28] - Quote Scurvy Granger wrote: Goat of Dover wrote: Also I don't feel that skirmish will not die because people will hit cap at separate times. That combined with people will still play skirmish because they prefer it for their play style will keep skirmish alive at the end of the week. Yes, Skirmish will die down towards Monday but, we are coming from a game that on a weekly cap was kinda dead at the end of the SP week anyway. Skirmish will not die down towards Mondays for one simple reason. You hit your cap during the week using Skirmish then play some ambush to best utilize time/SP gain, then on the weekends you'll join your corp matches and try to take control of planets, or right now better your faction in FW. You don't earn SP in corp matches anyway so there ya go problem solved. Option 2 is the best option anyway. Eww good point didn't even take FW into account thanks for that. That was a really good one and, a good schedule to play by for some people.
Scurvy Granger ZionTCD Legacy Rising 75	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:16:00 - [29] - Quote Gunner Nightingale wrote: I havent looked at your response in the other thread yet, but i wlll Soon TM. First off...LMFAO EDIT: for the sake of clarity I was laughing about the SOON TM, was hilarious you putting it in there Back on topic: I have answered you argument. "Hardcore" players will find a way to push the limits without the soft cap by camping objectives or allowing the group to take objectives so they can take them back. I honestly believe the soft cap will keep that from becoming a standard instead of just used if you're bored/goofing around. So no it won't just be making skirmish worth the time it takes to play. I'd rather see the grinders run over to Ambush than continue to gain 3000 SP/game in Skirmish while I'm at work and unable to gain SP(and I bet that 3000 SP would be gained in the least amount of time, probably 2x the length of an Ambush at the longest). You should know better than anyone else what "hardcore" players will do to continue to push ahead of the rest, you are in the highest profile corp, or at least their intro corp. Yea if everyone plays the game the same way and blah blah blah your numbers are completely correct, but you know that isn't how it's going to go if there isn't a soft cap. 1000 SP per game is MUCH better than 50 so you should be happy about that increase in reward instead of trying to push so you can get further ahead.
Scurvy Granger ZionTCD Legacy Rising 75	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:19:00 - [30] - Quote Gunner Nightingale wrote: Scurvy Granger wrote: Goat of Dover wrote: But it was a match of smart farming where we let them hold one objective and they kept funneling out of it. And this is what I'm talking about with "hardcore" players finding a way to exploit the no SP soft cap. They will leave an objective or allow an objective to be taken in order to boost their SP intake. I've done the same with my squads in the past so I know it will be seen more often if there is no SP soft cap. Hardcore players should be rewarded for playing more is saying that people that cannot play more often even though they want to should be punished. Where is the line drawn? I'm happy you have so much free time and don't have to work for a living but honestly telling me that since I have a family, a job, and less time for games that I should get destroyed every time I decide to play this game is worse than taking about half of your SP gain away. You'll still get more than me since you play more but at least it will be awhile before you can one shot me every time I appear.(I know one-shot is an exaggeration, but you get the idea) Hey jerkoff i think ive been more than polite and reasoned in my posts. Sorry you don't have time and you feel the need to peg me as a no lifer. Hate to break it to you but 1. Have a Medical Degree, yeah im a doctor eat it son!! 2. Actively pursuing a residency program as we speak. 3. Am a Clinical Research Scientist in Cardiac Electrophysiology(the electrical rhythm of the heart). 4. Have an active life outside of gaming(golf, dating, family(not my own but brothers, cousins, nieces with plenty of socialization) etc. 5. Just have a freakishly awesome quality of life. 6. Time management skills to balance it all. Next time you make assumptions just remember the cliche "When you assume you make an ass out of you and me". I apologize, that was not directed toward any one person just used as an example, and honestly until you have a family and kids that always want your attention(unless taking a nap like right now) then you will ALWAYS have more time than me even working 60+ hours a week, which I also do sometimes.

Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:24:00 - [31] - Quote Scurvy Granger wrote: Gunner Nightingale wrote: Scurvy Granger wrote: Goat of Dover wrote: But it was a match of smart farming where we let them hold one objective and they kept funneling out of it. And this is what I'm talking about with "hardcore" players finding a way to exploit the no SP soft cap. They will leave an objective or allow an objective to be taken in order to boost their SP intake. I've done the same with my squads in the past so I know it will be seen more often if there is no SP soft cap. Hardcore players should be rewarded for playing more is saying that people that cannot play more often even though they want to should be punished. Where is the line drawn? I'm happy you have so much free time and don't have to work for a living but honestly telling me that since I have a family, a job, and less time for games that I should get destroyed every time I decide to play this game is worse than taking about half of your SP gain away. You'll still get more than me since you play more but at least it will be awhile before you can one shot me every time I appear.(I know one-shot is an exaggeration, but you get the idea) Hey jerkoff i think ive been more than polite and reasoned in my posts. Sorry you don't have time and you feel the need to peg me as a no lifer. Hate to break it to you but 1. Have a Medical Degree, yeah im a doctor eat it son!! 2. Actively pursuing a residency program as we speak. 3. Am a Clinical Research Scientist in Cardiac Electrophysiology(the electrical rhythm of the heart). 4. Have an active life outside of gaming(golf, dating, family(not my own but brothers, cousins, nieces with plenty of socialization) etc. 5. Just have a freakishly awesome quality of life. 6. Time management skills to balance it all. Next time you make assumptions just remember the cliche "When you assume you make an ass out of you and me". I apologize, that was not directed toward any one person just used as an example, and honestly until you have a family and kids that always want your attention(unless taking a nap like right now) then you will ALWAYS have more time than me even working 60+ hours a week, which I also do sometimes. No offense to Gunner or anyone in that feel it was aimed at them but +1 on the kids fact, man is that so true.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:26:00 - [32] - Quote I apologize as well, i really should grow thicker skin on the interwebz and not assume every comment on a my threads are directed at me. Just passion got the better of me and i felt like i was being dismissed for unfair reasons. Personally i agree with you that family is a huge time sink(but totally worth it). And i for one describe myself as casualcore player. Im among as i suspect you are the generation that grew up gaming, from atari to paper and pen RPGS to what we have now. I for one hate being pushed aside from video games especially when they forget that my generation of gamers are as passionate as younger gamers and have our own money that when financially possible will gladly part with it for our "entertainment". Anyway moving on, I have noted a compromise about possibly raising the SP soft cap to 2000 SP for skirmish as i think that address my main issue with option 2 while still addressing everyone's concern with option 5. Think that is a bit more reasonable?
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:30:00 - [33] - Quote I get over 1000sp on ambush quite often. And I am using a active booster so it would be 1.5 times that. So I changed my vote from 5 to the 1000sp cap. So the 2400wp skirmish match would be a 3600sp gain. Ideal to me at least would be. A daily addition of cap with upto week's worth saved in rollover. With soft cap of 514sp, then active booster turn stops working. At 1028(514x2) it goes to 2/3sp per wp. Every 514 additional sp it gives 2/3 of amount the last 514 gave. If this could be made into smooth function even better, I don't feel like trying to find the equation. I'm rusty, been awhile since college and job doesn't use a lot of polynomials.
Scurvy Granger ZionTCD Legacy Rising 75	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:37:00 - [34] - Quote Gunner Nightingale wrote: I apologize as well, i really should grow thicker skin on the interwebz and not assume every comment on a my threads are directed at me. Just passion got the better of me and i felt like i was being dismissed for unfair reasons. Anyway moving on, I have noted a compromise about possibly raising the SP soft cap to 2000 SP for skirmish as i think that address my main issue with option 2 while still addressing everyone's concern with option 5. Think that is a bit more reasonable? The problem with that is then you are basically calling it a time SP gain and honestly I'd rather lower it than raise it, but I am a "casual" player with kids that keep me occupied. I would want to see Ambush 750 cap/Skirmish 1500 cap That would appeal to less skilled players because they would be a bit closer to it.(c'mon we've all seen those guys at the bottom with 250 WP) In fact I have bad days everyone now and then(when playing the "hardcore" mainly) where I've been at the bottom.
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:43:00 - [35] - Quote Yea that could work too, just dont think CCP will do it, oh well. At least we have some good foundations set for when we gear up to debate this again when CCP want to establish the "real" SP system. Thanks for the responses everyone.
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1904	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:48:00 - [36] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: 1000k+ in ambush is more than doable, and especially on a consistent basis. Drop in a (well fitted) blaster tank, collect your 30 kills, boom, 1500 points right there. Now frago that person, it's now 1800 points, add on a booster, 2700 points, and that's on kills alone, not including any vehicles, installations, or assists you may accrue. Since that player was able to dominate in his tank, that match ended faster, allowing him to get into his next match and repeat ad nauseam. Simply alternate between driver and gunner, (where as a gunner I went 31-0 two nights ago) between matches and you're good to go. Yeah, there's still going to the /occasional/ match where you face resistance, or maybe only put up 20 kills, but even 20 kills can net you 2100 with a frago and booster. Option #2. This guy knows the business.
Sobriety Denied Universal Allies Inc. 432	Posted - 2013.01.26 21:23:00 - [37] - Quote Salazar Skye-fire wrote: nope still going with #2 cant hack it with the rest of us theres always COD, i hear they give you unlocks like every few minutes now. if your attention span is that lacking call a friend over and have them jingle keys in front of you every now and then. no need for divisions just because someone has a different sp preference, doesnt make the a cod fan, #5 is a meeting ground of both different sp preferences.
Sir Meode Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 317	Posted - 2013.01.26 21:26:00 - [38] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: 1000k+ in ambush is more than doable, and especially on a consistent basis. Drop in a (well fitted) blaster tank, collect your 30 kills, boom, 1500 points right there. Now frago that person, it's now 1800 points, add on a booster, 2700 points, and that's on kills alone, not including any vehicles, installations, or assists you may accrue. Since that player was able to dominate in his tank, that match ended faster, allowing him to get into his next match and repeat ad nauseam. Simply alternate between driver and gunner, (where as a gunner I went 31-0 two nights ago) between matches and you're good to go. Yeah, there's still going to the /occasional/ match where you face resistance, or maybe only put up 20 kills, but even 20 kills can net you 2100 with a frago and booster. Option #2. This is exactly right
Kira Lannister Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 711	Posted - 2013.01.26 21:28:00 - [39] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: 1000k+ in ambush is more than doable, and especially on a consistent basis. Drop in a (well fitted) blaster tank, collect your 30 kills, boom, 1500 points right there. Now frago that person, it's now 1800 points, add on a booster, 2700 points, and that's on kills alone, not including any vehicles, installations, or assists you may accrue. Since that player was able to dominate in his tank, that match ended faster, allowing him to get into his next match and repeat ad nauseam. Simply alternate between driver and gunner, (where as a gunner I went 31-0 two nights ago) between matches and you're good to go. Yeah, there's still going to the /occasional/ match where you face resistance, or maybe only put up 20 kills, but even 20 kills can net you 2100 with a frago and booster. Option #2. QFT Common sense will prevail!
Scurvy Granger ZionTCD Legacy Rising 75	Posted - 2013.01.26 21:41:00 - [40] - Quote Good and bad players aside lets run some basic numbers assuming that 2 players are equal in skill but one can play more. No SP soft cap: Casual: @ 2 days a week 6 hours a day(casual might play less) 2000 WP per match: if they hit cap after 8 hours 2000 * 4(matches per hour) = 8000 WP 8000 * 4(hours after hitting cap) = 32000 WP (Don't forget the booster) 32000 * 1.5 = 48000 SP Hardcore: @ 5 days a week 4 hours a day(they often play more than this) 2000 WP per match: if they hit cap after 8 hours 2000 * 4(matches per hour) = 8000 WP(same so far) 8000 * 12(hours after hitting cap) = 96000 WP(Wait what?) (Don't forget the booster) 96000 * 1.5 = 144000 SP(Are you serious?!?!?) Hardcore - Casual = 96000 SP 1k SP cap per match: Casual: @ 2 days a week 6 hours a day(casual might play less) 1000 WP per match: if they hit cap after 8 hours 1000 * 5(matches per hour/you can run ambush) = 5000 WP 5000 * 4(hours after hitting cap) = 20000 WP (Don't forget the booster) 20000 * 1.5 = 30000 SP Hardcore: @ 5 days a week 4 hours a day(they often play more than this) 1000 WP per match: if they hit cap after 8 hours 1000 * 5(matches per hour/you can run ambush) = 5000 WP(again same so far) 5000 * 12(hours after hitting cap) = 60000(well that still sucks) (Don't forget the booster) 60000 * 1.5 = 90000 SP Hardcore - Casual = 60000 SP It sucks either way because the hardcore player pulls ahead, but at least with that soft cap he/she doesn't pull ahead quite as much. I think I'll go for the one that doesn't suck as bad for everyone besides the minority that has the time to play more. Both options make life better for "hardcore" players but option 5 makes it just a bit easier on them.

Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:16:00 - [41] - Quote Gunner Nightingale wrote: Skihids wrote: The soft cap isn't really a cap at all because it never "caps" out. It's really just a throttle on gains above the time in match SP cap. So the only difference between this and "no cap at all" that we are dead set against as a community, is that you don't get the match time bonus after a certain amount of SP (the so called "soft cap"). The proposed "no cap" was also 1WP = 1SP without any time in match bonus. So option #5 is precisely what everyone is up in arms about sans match time SP! As such it will still encourage constant grinding, allow no-lifers to pull way ahead, and imbalance the player base before it matures enough not to adversely affect the DUST/EVE connection. The 1,000 SP throttle on WP conversion is actually pretty high. Anyone but beast players don't get much more than that in any one match, and it's 1,500 SP with a booster. A no-lifer can still grind a huge advantage with that. Nobody needs to max out the entire skill tree so fast that they need unlimited WP/SP conversion. The 1,000 limit is a plenty reward for plying another match on to of the ISK, and hopefully we will have many other reasons to play in the future. Okay again then explain to me how this limits anyone from just playing ambush matches where earning 1000WP is a regular occurence for every beast player in a shorter duration of time. Few if ANY earn more than that and certainly NOT ON A REGULAR BASIS. All option 5 does is allows somebody who PLAY SKIRMISH to get the same kind of consistency in terms of time spent in the gamemode. Like i said nobody is earning 1500-2000WP in ambush, they get them in skirmish and more so they get b/w 2000-3000WP and that is on a match that will often last 2-3x an ambush match. So again if a person who wants to grind as we all know they will where will they go? Option 5 does have a throttle built in its the 1WP=1SP throttle, there are only so many WP's you can earn in a match and the matches where you earn more than 1000WP are skirmish matches which last longer and has more ways of earning WP. You are correct sir. To address that I propose a 1,000 SP cap for Skirmish and a 500 SP cap for the shorter ambush.
crazy space 2100046106 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:32:00 - [42] - Quote Talk about the vocal Minority My god
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:59:00 - [43] - Quote crazy space 2100046106 wrote: Talk about the vocal Minority My god This bunch just doesn't want to let go of the SP grind. The masses are concerned with legitimate issues of starting off the game with unlimited SP grinding but there are the who require constant unlocks for validation. DUST is trying to be about more than hitting Prestige level ten before next years release where you can do it all over again. I say just make it completely passive so people learn to play for other reasons. It would put pressure on CCP to fix FW and add the other EVE interaction elements to keep everyone playing.


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