Math is hard! Let's go shopping!

Snifff...........sniff.......It warms the cockles of my heart to see someone do a spreadsheet so quickly for this. You should get a prize for being the first to EVEn the game up some.

Also How long did it take you to make the spread sheet?

Spreadsheet is AWESOME! Lets look at the totality of fits... not just weapons!
A Proto assault fit, will have aprox 600HP (maybe more or less depending on layout, but 600 is reasonable.
It will take a militia fit around 23-24 shots to kill them.

Now, reverse that. The proto fit, can drop the militia fit (which will have 300-400HP) in about a dozen rounds.

The proto drops them in half the time! And that with current damage differences. This sounds reasonable to me. Just imagine how bad the disparity was before the damage redistribution!

It's just one equation, changing the cells that it's pulling numbers from. Each section just required inputting different weapon damages and the rest filled out itself. It took longer waiting for people to get me some of the numbers I was missing than it did to make it.



Yeah, SP is where discrepancies come from now, which is the opposite of where CCP has said they wanted it to be. However, it doesn't matter which gun you use, really, wherever you're at with your SP investment. You've got a 1, maybe 2 (sometimes zero, sometimes 3 for HMG) difference in the number of bullets it takes you to kill your target depending on which tier weapon you use.

Why should people spend a buttload more ISK, CPU, and PG for a target to die in sometimes just a single bullet less, if any difference at all? The bigger differences really only start to appear for going against hp-tanked heavies, and even then, it's just a couple bullets.

It's just one equation, changing the cells that it's pulling numbers from. Each section just required inputting different weapon damages and the rest filled out itself. It took longer waiting for people to get me some of the numbers I was missing than it did to make it.



Yeah, SP is where discrepancies come from now, which is the opposite of where CCP has said they wanted it to be. However, it doesn't matter which gun you use, really, wherever you're at with your SP investment. You've got a 1, maybe 2 (sometimes zero, sometimes 3 for HMG) difference in the number of bullets it takes you to kill your target depending on which tier weapon you use.

Why should people spend a buttload more ISK, CPU, and PG for a target to die in sometimes just a single bullet less, if any difference at all? The bigger differences really only start to appear for going against hp-tanked heavies, and even then, it's just a couple bullets.

It's not a single bullet though. The expensive proto fit will have several complex shield extenders, shiled regulators, armor reppers, etc. This is on top of the duvolle. They can withstand 24ish rounds from a militia fit (using militia gun) The militiea fit has much less in terms of shield extenders, etc, and when getting hit by Duvolle rounds, they go down in 12 rounds. That's not a difference of 1 or 2 rounds, that's a difference of 12 rounds.

True but the one guy stated this is just weapon and you should take the whole fit into account. It is militia vs proto that is the problem not the guns them selves.

If he is first, what does that make me?

Btw, thanks for pointing out that prototype weapons are a waste of SP and ISK in a clear way. SP has a significantly greater effect than gear, which seems backwards...

If he is first, what does that make me?

Not everyone using a proto suit has 500 or more total hp

You don't understand how to read the spreadsheet, so we'll go through it together.

Look at the top section under the Standard heading (this is with no SP investment in damage increasing skills). You're shooting at some guy who has, let's say 400 hp. You pick up a militia or standard assault rifle (they have the same damage), and you'd kill him in 13 shots. If you had an advanced gun instead, you'd have killed him in... 13 shots. BUT if you had proto, you'd have killed him in a whole 12 shots.

Now, if you had maxed your SP, you'd have killed him in 11 shots with a militia or standard AR, but only 10 shots with advanced or proto.

If you had maxed SP and 2 damage mods, you'd have killed him in 9 shots if you were using militia, standard or advanced AR. Only 8 shots if you had proto.

You're only saving 1 bullet (if any) in those situations. Why would you need to use a higher gun? There's need to upgrade your SP investment and maybe stack damage mods, but there's absolutely no real reason to fit a higher level gun if it's only going to save you a single bullet vs your target. You're sacrificing a lot of ISK, CPU, and PG to kill someone in 1 less bullet.

I'm not misreading, you're going under the assumption that it's just the guns that make a difference. I'm arguing that YES the difference in guns is NOT big. HOWEVER, when you factor in EVERYTHING, the proto player can kill the militia player in half the shots.

I'm not misreading, you're going under the assumption that it's just the guns that make a difference. I'm arguing that YES the difference in guns is NOT big. HOWEVER, when you factor in EVERYTHING, the proto player can kill the militia player in half the shots.

This has nothing to do with proto vs militia fits. The difference in the tiers of guns isn't "not big" it's almost nonexistent. This is to highlight that it doesn't matter what weapon YOU use, because you kill everyone in almost the same amount of bullets regardless of which tier you have equipped. There is no reason to sacrifice more ISK, CPU and PG to fit the higher level gun because it doesn't kill any faster for you.

This has nothing to do with proto vs militia fits. The difference in the tiers of guns isn't "not big" it's almost nonexistent. This is to highlight that it doesn't matter what weapon YOU use, because you kill everyone in almost the same amount of bullets regardless of which tier you have equipped. There is no reason to sacrifice more ISK, CPU and PG to fit the higher level gun because it doesn't kill any faster for you.

Either way, I'm not even saying that currently the weapons are fine... they're NOT.
They need to be re-evaluated. There should be a bigger difference than just 3.1 dmg between militia and proto. However, I don't think it should be the 6dmg difference we had before. Somewhere in between would probably be best.

Go back in your hole, princess.

Ok so the point of the spreadsheet is to show that as a person running proto or adv. suits and have the SP in the correct spots don't need to run adv. or proto. guns, saving said player isk.

So a person running a standard dropsuit with a proto gun should put out about the same damage as a proto suit running a standard gun, does this assumption seem correct?

No, it's that it doesn't matter what gun you use regardless of where you're at. If you have no SP invested, or max your SP investment, or even stack damage mods on top of that, no matter which gun you use, you'll kill at almost the exact same rate. So there's no point in actually using those higher guns you unlock, just as long as you spend your SP in the skills that increase damage passively, because that makes a difference. Using a higher level gun gives you either no extra killing power or practically negligible extra killing power.

When you have a small advantage, that means you survive longer which results in more income and more kills. Currently the game is far more balanced than it ever has before. I never considered their change but I love it.

Rocking higher tier weapons still puts you well ahead of your opposition and it's saved me plenty of times.

Rocking higher tier weapons still puts you well ahead of your opposition and it's saved me plenty of times.

I'm not misreading, you're going under the assumption that it's just the guns that make a difference. I'm arguing that YES the difference in guns is NOT big. HOWEVER, when you factor in EVERYTHING, the proto player can kill the militia player in half the shots.

I fail to see how using vastly more fitting space and ISK to kill someone in 1 less bullet (or the same amount of bullets depending on the upgrade) is putting you "well ahead."

I fail to see how using vastly more fitting space and ISK to kill someone in 1 less bullet (or the same amount of bullets depending on the upgrade) is putting you "well ahead."

Its really quite simple. One less bullet needed to kill a person means that there is less reaction time, higher chance of scaring your opposition, and when you kill them just in the nic of time YOU get to go on to get more kills. I would have assumed you'd understand that by now.

I think I can understand what mike is saying, about proto fits still having a large advantage over militia fits, but that advantage lies elsewhere; the weapon damage difference is terrible. There really is no reason to use higher than basic stuff now.

Its really quite simple. One less bullet needed to kill a person means that there is less reaction time, higher chance of scaring your opposition, and when you kill them just in the nic of time YOU get to go on to get more kills. I would have assumed you'd understand that by now.

Whats the ISK math though dude?

It's 100x to get even 2x tank advantage and the DPS advantage is now nonexistent....

Hmmm,


A few thoughts......Sorry OP...

1). Firstly have you thought about breaching the NDA........

2). Did you take into account fire rate

3). did you take into account clip size

4). did you take into account


No where have I seen you take into account accuracy of each weapon or the clip size or how long each clip will last given the shot rate of each weapon.

Looks pretty, but to me, totally inaccurate and meaning less. Given that maybe CCP wont mind you breaching the NDA !

Hmmm,


A few thoughts......Sorry OP...

1). Firstly have you thought about breaching the NDA........

2). Did you take into account fire rate

3). did you take into account clip size

4). did you take into account


No where have I seen you take into account accuracy of each weapon or the clip size or how long each clip will last given the shot rate of each weapon.

Looks pretty, but to me, totally inaccurate and meaning less. Given that maybe CCP wont mind you breaching the NDA !

1 more thing, what I am looking forward to is programs like EFT , then we can play with different dropsuits , modules and guns, then I think we will get some very interessting fits.

Yeah, I said the weapon difference is negligible. The price you pay for more HP is a different issue. I didn't see any complaints about EHP of proto suits and their cost before(aside from the ridiculous heavy vk1)? The spreadsheet shows old AR with max SP and new AR with max SP both kill a 600 EHP suit with the same amount of bullets.

not being an AR user besides the exile. Do the Proto AR's handle differently? As in better accuracy, better range, tighter bullet spread and what not? Then their standard and advanced counterparts.

The only weapon set with noticable difference in bullets/kill is HMG.

Ithought i noticed a faster kill spread. nice to know i wasnt smoking crack.

The AR variation should be more than 1 bullet per kill between milita and proto for sure.