DUST Search - [Discussion] Weapon damage flattening, now with facts and spreadsheets!

Reimus Klinsman wrote:

Tiel Syysch wrote:

Belzeebub Santana wrote:

Ok so the point of the spreadsheet is to show that as a person running proto or adv. suits and have the SP in the correct spots don't need to run adv. or proto. guns, saving said player isk.

So a person running a standard dropsuit with a proto gun should put out about the same damage as a proto suit running a standard gun, does this assumption seem correct?

No, it's that it doesn't matter what gun you use regardless of where you're at. If you have no SP invested, or max your SP investment, or even stack damage mods on top of that, no matter which gun you use, you'll kill at almost the exact same rate. So there's no point in actually using those higher guns you unlock, just as long as you spend your SP in the skills that increase damage passively, because that makes a difference. Using a higher level gun gives you either no extra killing power or practically negligible extra killing power.

When you have a small advantage, that means you survive longer which results in more income and more kills. Currently the game is far more balanced than it ever has before. I never considered their change but I love it.

Rocking higher tier weapons still puts you well ahead of your opposition and it's saved me plenty of times.

Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Reimus Klinsman BetaMax. 319	Posted - 2012.12.30 07:34:00 - [31] - Quote Tiel Syysch wrote: Belzeebub Santana wrote: Ok so the point of the spreadsheet is to show that as a person running proto or adv. suits and have the SP in the correct spots don't need to run adv. or proto. guns, saving said player isk. So a person running a standard dropsuit with a proto gun should put out about the same damage as a proto suit running a standard gun, does this assumption seem correct? No, it's that it doesn't matter what gun you use regardless of where you're at. If you have no SP invested, or max your SP investment, or even stack damage mods on top of that, no matter which gun you use, you'll kill at almost the exact same rate. So there's no point in actually using those higher guns you unlock, just as long as you spend your SP in the skills that increase damage passively, because that makes a difference. Using a higher level gun gives you either no extra killing power or practically negligible extra killing power. When you have a small advantage, that means you survive longer which results in more income and more kills. Currently the game is far more balanced than it ever has before. I never considered their change but I love it. Rocking higher tier weapons still puts you well ahead of your opposition and it's saved me plenty of times.
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2012.12.30 07:36:00 - [32] - Quote Reimus Klinsman wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: Belzeebub Santana wrote: Ok so the point of the spreadsheet is to show that as a person running proto or adv. suits and have the SP in the correct spots don't need to run adv. or proto. guns, saving said player isk. So a person running a standard dropsuit with a proto gun should put out about the same damage as a proto suit running a standard gun, does this assumption seem correct? No, it's that it doesn't matter what gun you use regardless of where you're at. If you have no SP invested, or max your SP investment, or even stack damage mods on top of that, no matter which gun you use, you'll kill at almost the exact same rate. So there's no point in actually using those higher guns you unlock, just as long as you spend your SP in the skills that increase damage passively, because that makes a difference. Using a higher level gun gives you either no extra killing power or practically negligible extra killing power. When you have a small advantage, that means you survive longer which results in more income and more kills. Currently the game is far more balanced than it ever has before. I never considered their change but I love it. Rocking higher tier weapons still puts you well ahead of your opposition and it's saved me plenty of times. Math and life are hard yo, get ******* good baddie.
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2012.12.30 07:47:00 - [33] - Quote Reimus Klinsman wrote: Rocking higher tier weapons still puts you well ahead of your opposition and it's saved me plenty of times. I fail to see how using vastly more fitting space and ISK to kill someone in 1 less bullet (or the same amount of bullets depending on the upgrade) is putting you "well ahead."
Lion Redstar ZionTCD Legacy Rising 66	Posted - 2012.12.30 07:57:00 - [34] - Quote Quote: I'm not misreading, you're going under the assumption that it's just the guns that make a difference. I'm arguing that YES the difference in guns is NOT big. HOWEVER, when you factor in EVERYTHING, the proto player can kill the militia player in half the shots. You are not misreading, just misinterpret. A proto suit player will kill a militia suit player in 20 shots if he is using a standard/militia AR. A proto suit player will kill a militia suit player in 19 shots if he is using a advanced AR. A proto suit player will kill a militia suit player in 18 shots if he is using a proto AR. The only difference between using the standard and the proto AR is 2 shots. But the cost in ISK and SP needed is huge. P.S. This thread is not about full fittings variations, it's about the difference between weapon classes. Please read the OP and keep it on topic.
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2012.12.30 07:58:00 - [35] - Quote Tiel Syysch wrote: Reimus Klinsman wrote: Rocking higher tier weapons still puts you well ahead of your opposition and it's saved me plenty of times. I fail to see how using vastly more fitting space and ISK to kill someone in 1 less bullet (or the same amount of bullets depending on the upgrade) is putting you "well ahead." He's bad yo?
SATORI CORUSCANTi Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 253	Posted - 2012.12.30 07:59:00 - [36] - Quote I think I can understand what mike is saying, about proto fits still having a large advantage over militia fits, but that advantage lies elsewhere; the weapon damage difference is terrible. There really is no reason to use higher than basic stuff now.
Reimus Klinsman BetaMax. 319	Posted - 2012.12.30 08:02:00 - [37] - Quote Tiel Syysch wrote: Reimus Klinsman wrote: Rocking higher tier weapons still puts you well ahead of your opposition and it's saved me plenty of times. I fail to see how using vastly more fitting space and ISK to kill someone in 1 less bullet (or the same amount of bullets depending on the upgrade) is putting you "well ahead." Its really quite simple. One less bullet needed to kill a person means that there is less reaction time, higher chance of scaring your opposition, and when you kill them just in the nic of time YOU get to go on to get more kills. I would have assumed you'd understand that by now.
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2012.12.30 08:07:00 - [38] - Quote Reimus Klinsman wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: Reimus Klinsman wrote: Rocking higher tier weapons still puts you well ahead of your opposition and it's saved me plenty of times. I fail to see how using vastly more fitting space and ISK to kill someone in 1 less bullet (or the same amount of bullets depending on the upgrade) is putting you "well ahead." Its really quite simple. One less bullet needed to kill a person means that there is less reaction time, higher chance of scaring your opposition, and when you kill them just in the nic of time YOU get to go on to get more kills. I would have assumed you'd understand that by now. Explain it in game? Nice try though scrub.
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2012.12.30 08:08:00 - [39] - Quote SATORI CORUSCANTi wrote: I think I can understand what mike is saying, about proto fits still having a large advantage over militia fits, but that advantage lies elsewhere; the weapon damage difference is terrible. There really is no reason to use higher than basic stuff now. Whats the ISK math though dude? It's 100x to get even 2x tank advantage and the DPS advantage is now nonexistent....
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2012.12.30 08:08:00 - [40] - Quote Reimus Klinsman wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: Reimus Klinsman wrote: Rocking higher tier weapons still puts you well ahead of your opposition and it's saved me plenty of times. I fail to see how using vastly more fitting space and ISK to kill someone in 1 less bullet (or the same amount of bullets depending on the upgrade) is putting you "well ahead." Its really quite simple. One less bullet needed to kill a person means that there is less reaction time, higher chance of scaring your opposition, and when you kill them just in the nic of time YOU get to go on to get more kills. I would have assumed you'd understand that by now. Now explain the areas where there is zero improvement in performance when upgrading, because there's many of those. Also, some fits require sacrificing something to fit that proto gun, due to the high cpu/pg cost. If you're having to sacrifice your hp in order to kill in 1 less bullet, you might be dying in 1 less bullet to begin with yourself.

slap26 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 462	Posted - 2012.12.30 08:24:00 - [41] - Quote not being an AR user besides the exile. Do the Proto AR's handle differently? As in better accuracy, better range, tighter bullet spread and what not? Then their standard and advanced counterparts.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2012.12.30 09:11:00 - [42] - Quote The only weapon set with noticable difference in bullets/kill is HMG. Ithought i noticed a faster kill spread. nice to know i wasnt smoking crack. The AR variation should be more than 1 bullet per kill between milita and proto for sure.
SATORI CORUSCANTi Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 253	Posted - 2012.12.30 09:55:00 - [43] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: SATORI CORUSCANTi wrote: I think I can understand what mike is saying, about proto fits still having a large advantage over militia fits, but that advantage lies elsewhere; the weapon damage difference is terrible. There really is no reason to use higher than basic stuff now. Whats the ISK math though dude? It's 100x to get even 2x tank advantage and the DPS advantage is now nonexistent.... Yeah, I said the weapon difference is negligible. The price you pay for more HP is a different issue. I didn't see any complaints about EHP of proto suits and their cost before(aside from the ridiculous heavy vk1)? The spreadsheet shows old AR with max SP and new AR with max SP both kill a 600 EHP suit with the same amount of bullets.
Heavenly Daughter CrimeWave Syndicate 71	Posted - 2012.12.30 10:24:00 - [44] - Quote Hmmm, A few thoughts......Sorry OP... 1). Firstly have you thought about breaching the NDA........ 2). Did you take into account fire rate 3). did you take into account clip size 4). did you take into account No where have I seen you take into account accuracy of each weapon or the clip size or how long each clip will last given the shot rate of each weapon. Looks pretty, but to me, totally inaccurate and meaning less. Given that maybe CCP wont mind you breaching the NDA !
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2012.12.30 10:31:00 - [45] - Quote Heavenly Daughter wrote: Hmmm, A few thoughts......Sorry OP... 1). Firstly have you thought about breaching the NDA........ 2). Did you take into account fire rate 3). did you take into account clip size 4). did you take into account No where have I seen you take into account accuracy of each weapon or the clip size or how long each clip will last given the shot rate of each weapon. Looks pretty, but to me, totally inaccurate and meaning less. Given that maybe CCP wont mind you breaching the NDA ! Its not an nda breach if the only link that accesses the file is on the forum for beta. Also, given the absolute lack of real data that doesnt require familiarity with dust jargon in a beta tester way, itd be hard for outsiders to figure out what that data is even relevant to.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2012.12.30 10:41:00 - [46] - Quote Heavenly Daughter wrote: Hmmm, A few thoughts......Sorry OP... 1). Firstly have you thought about breaching the NDA........ 2). Did you take into account fire rate 3). did you take into account clip size 4). did you take into account No where have I seen you take into account accuracy of each weapon or the clip size or how long each clip will last given the shot rate of each weapon. Looks pretty, but to me, totally inaccurate and meaning less. Given that maybe CCP wont mind you breaching the NDA ! As far as I know the ROF and clip size are the same across the tiers on all the weapons. The only thing besides damage that might be different is range.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.30 10:51:00 - [47] - Quote Those 1 or 2 bullets are likely to be lost anyways, I am all quite sure you have all done it though, fired one or two more shots before realizing the guy was dead. Nobody is that price to only shot the guy one or two less times than normal on fully automatic weapons. Take the F-18 M8 Autocannon for example. One single extremely short pull of the trigger and you just emptied out the 2,000 round magazine. Though an exaggeration the concept applies.
G Torq ALTA B2O 88	Posted - 2012.12.30 11:02:00 - [48] - Quote Dropping your opponent using 1 bullet less is not about the cost of the gear, but about who lives (no loss of gear/ISK) and who dies (loss of gear+ISK). If in a gun-fight and the *only* difference between the other berry killing me and me killing the other berry is a single bullet, I will prefer to have that advantage. So, doesnt matter that you might spray 1 more bullet (bullets are cheap), it doesn't matter that gaining that 1-bullet difference costs 100.000 ISK - what matters is that you gain a small advantage, and your clone may live a little longer. Note: The above assumes that all else is identical - same fitting, same skills etc - then the 1 bullet matters. In critical (non-Pub) battles, this is where the Proto gear will matter.
lordjanuz Norwegian Dust514 Corporation 88	Posted - 2012.12.30 11:33:00 - [49] - Quote +1 OP But as a EVE player I see the DropSuit as a ship in EVE, will try to be short. When I begun playing EVE I went straigt for Battleship and big guns, I thought no one could defeat me, ooo was I wrong, I got jumped by 3 small ships in low sec on a mission. One ship used Scrambler and Nosferatu the 2 other ships killed me, now I am flying tech 3 ships in gang and we can take down most ships and fleets. What I am saying is its not always the DPS I would think about, its about the slots you get to put modules in, it dosent matter if you have a uber gun but are not able to fire it beacouse I have a module and prevent U from using your gun, and I can put a scrambler gun to your body and kill you and you can only watch. CCP will give us houndreds of modules to play with, scarmbler/web/cloak etc.... its all about what you can fit , just my 2 cent.
lordjanuz Norwegian Dust514 Corporation 88	Posted - 2012.12.30 11:37:00 - [50] - Quote 1 more thing, what I am looking forward to is programs like EFT , then we can play with different dropsuits , modules and guns, then I think we will get some very interessting fits.

Odiain Suliis ZionTCD Legacy Rising 112	Posted - 2012.12.30 11:42:00 - [51] - Quote lordjanuz wrote: 1 more thing, what I am looking forward to is programs like EFT , then we can play with different dropsuits , modules and guns, then I think we will get some very interessting fits. These programs should be popping up as soon as DUST goes open beta, since at the moment CCP has CREST API developer testing phase goingon and that API can pull information from DUST also. Introducing the free ccp developer license and the crest api beta test period
Cyn Bruin Imperfects Negative-Feedback 651	Posted - 2012.12.30 12:50:00 - [52] - Quote Excellent job as always Tiel. The one's that don't understand the facts you have laid out are just CCP fanboys or don't want to listen because you have an Imperfects tag on you. No matter what solid evidence you lay out, they will refuse to believe it. The accuracy on ARs is almost universally the same, there are 1 or 2 that have a different rating. One thing CCP might be thinking (if they are) is they will tweak weapon damage with the type of ammunition used. Example in EVE is: EMP S ammunition is more powerful against shield. Carbonized Lead S ammunition is more powerful against armor. I could see CCP flattening the damage across weapon types in order to encourage different ammunition uses. Provided the ammunition also gives a damage bonus to whatever weapon type is used. (2% for Militia, 5% for Advance, 8% for Proto) etc. This is would be a weird way to go about it but I could see it happening. This weapon damage flattening and the SP system has me worried about the games future. As it stands now, not many will stick with this game on launch if the SP system stays the same way.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.12.30 13:10:00 - [53] - Quote My hope is this was a move in preparation of weapon modifications. The higher tiers will have more attachment slots despite being nearly the same damage, possibly justifying their price. If the militia has NO sight, and the prototype can fit a variable zoom/red dot hybrid with a cqc laser ... extreme example but you get my point. That is the only reason I can think of that justifies this change.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 13:36:00 - [54] - Quote SATORI CORUSCANTi wrote: Telcontar Dunedain wrote: SATORI CORUSCANTi wrote: I think I can understand what mike is saying, about proto fits still having a large advantage over militia fits, but that advantage lies elsewhere; the weapon damage difference is terrible. There really is no reason to use higher than basic stuff now. Whats the ISK math though dude? It's 100x to get even 2x tank advantage and the DPS advantage is now nonexistent.... Yeah, I said the weapon difference is negligible. The price you pay for more HP is a different issue. I didn't see any complaints about EHP of proto suits and their cost before(aside from the ridiculous heavy vk1)? The spreadsheet shows old AR with max SP and new AR with max SP both kill a 600 EHP suit with the same amount of bullets. I mentioned it in the other thread. The problem is less about the damage (although militia/std need to go back to 30, and Duvolle up to maybe 34.5) It's more about the Gek and Duvolle being too expensive. Make them proportionately cheaper, and it fixes the problem, without ruining the game for new waves of players that decide to take it up 6 months after "launch"
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.12.30 13:39:00 - [55] - Quote slap26 wrote: not being an AR user besides the exile. Do the Proto AR's handle differently? As in better accuracy, better range, tighter bullet spread and what not? Then their standard and advanced counterparts. They do have slightly better range and accuracy, but its a small difference. Someone else had a great point. Start making other stats matter, like reload time, maybe slight improvements in ROF, etc. This would also help differentiate the higher level guns.
trollsroyce Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 164	Posted - 2012.12.30 13:56:00 - [56] - Quote One obvious instance where the extra bit matters is sniping. A single module swap or weapon upgrade can mean the difference between 1 shotting or 2 shotting stuff Which in turn leads to much better offense stopping power as you can go on to next attacker and kill more before the clip runs out

GM Hercules Game Masters C C P Alliance 335	Posted - 2012.12.30 15:53:00 - [57] - Quote Please stop that flaming comments, shall we? Thanks. I have cleaned the thread a little.

KryptixX Imperfects Negative-Feedback 320	Posted - 2012.12.30 16:00:00 - [58] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The only weapon set with noticable difference in bullets/kill is HMG. Ithought i noticed a faster kill spread. nice to know i wasnt smoking crack. The AR variation should be more than 1 bullet per kill between milita and proto for sure. I guess you forgot HMGs ROF is much higher than any other gun, so 2 bullets for us fire quicker than 1 from an AR. (not looking at the stats)
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2012.12.30 16:08:00 - [59] - Quote Tiel's spreadsheet suggests that CCP has lost control of this game. Forum whining has turned this game into a vanilla shooter. The damage flattening is just the latest incarnation of this process of homogenization. Congratulations folks.

GM Hercules Game Masters C C P Alliance 335	Posted - 2012.12.30 16:21:00 - [60] - Quote Closing this thread for now. The game is still in a closed beta phase and all the information is still protected by the NDA. I'll update and probably (I'm not promise nothing here) unlocked the topic a soon I have confirmation to do it. Please do not open a second thread that refers to the same topic, otherwise forum rules will apply.




Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page