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[Discussion] Weapon damage flattening, now with facts and spreadsheets!

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2012.12.30 02:43:00 - [1] - Quote Before you read further, I want you to think to yourself what you feel the kill difference between standard, advanced, and prototype weapons should be - in terms of the difference in number of bullets it should take to kill a target if you were to upgrade your weapons. Got an idea? Okay, let's go further. I've created a handy *LINK HAS BEEN EDITED BY A MODERATOR* for you to compare your opinion to. This is what the current damage for standard variants of weapons is at ("standard" meaning I didn't grab tactical/breach/assault/etc variants). I've included base damage, max SP damage, and max SP + 2 damage mods damage. The numbers in the spreadsheet list how many bullets it takes to kill targets at various HP levels, and you can compare those across tiers of the same weapon. I've included numbers for Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles, SMGs, Scrambler Pistols and HMGs. Does this look okay? Do you think there is adequate reason, given these values, to upgrade any of these weapons? These aren't rhetorical questions, I'm interested to hear if people genuinely think it's worthwhile upgrading or not. How does it stack up to your opinion of what kind of benefit you should get from upgrading? TL;DR - Upgrading to advanced or prototype weapon often leads to you killing someone in usually just 1 or 2 fewer bullets, if not zero change.
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:23:00 - [2] - Quote Elijah Sol' Dzusaki wrote: Also How long did it take you to make the spread sheet? It's just one equation, changing the cells that it's pulling numbers from. Each section just required inputting different weapon damages and the rest filled out itself. It took longer waiting for people to get me some of the numbers I was missing than it did to make it. mikegunnz wrote: Spreadsheet is AWESOME! Lets look at the totality of fits... not just weapons! A Proto assault fit, will have aprox 600HP (maybe more or less depending on layout, but 600 is reasonable. It will take a militia fit around 23-24 shots to kill them. Now, reverse that. The proto fit, can drop the militia fit (which will have 300-400HP) in about a dozen rounds. The proto drops them in half the time! And that with current damage differences. This sounds reasonable to me. Just imagine how bad the disparity was before the damage redistribution! Yeah, SP is where discrepancies come from now, which is the opposite of where CCP has said they wanted it to be. However, it doesn't matter which gun you use, really, wherever you're at with your SP investment. You've got a 1, maybe 2 (sometimes zero, sometimes 3 for HMG) difference in the number of bullets it takes you to kill your target depending on which tier weapon you use. Why should people spend a buttload more ISK, CPU, and PG for a target to die in sometimes just a single bullet less, if any difference at all? The bigger differences really only start to appear for going against hp-tanked heavies, and even then, it's just a couple bullets.
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:38:00 - [3] - Quote mikegunnz wrote: It's not a single bullet though. The expensive proto fit will have several complex shield extenders, shiled regulators, armor reppers, etc. This is on top of the duvolle. They can withstand 24ish rounds from a militia fit (using militia gun) The militiea fit has much less in terms of shield extenders, etc, and when getting hit by Duvolle rounds, they go down in 12 rounds. That's not a difference of 1 or 2 rounds, that's a difference of 12 rounds. You don't understand how to read the spreadsheet, so we'll go through it together. Look at the top section under the Standard heading (this is with no SP investment in damage increasing skills). You're shooting at some guy who has, let's say 400 hp. You pick up a militia or standard assault rifle (they have the same damage), and you'd kill him in 13 shots. If you had an advanced gun instead, you'd have killed him in... 13 shots. BUT if you had proto, you'd have killed him in a whole 12 shots. Now, if you had maxed your SP, you'd have killed him in 11 shots with a militia or standard AR, but only 10 shots with advanced or proto. If you had maxed SP and 2 damage mods, you'd have killed him in 9 shots if you were using militia, standard or advanced AR. Only 8 shots if you had proto. You're only saving 1 bullet (if any) in those situations. Why would you need to use a higher gun? There's need to upgrade your SP investment and maybe stack damage mods, but there's absolutely no real reason to fit a higher level gun if it's only going to save you a single bullet vs your target. You're sacrificing a lot of ISK, CPU, and PG to kill someone in 1 less bullet.
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2012.12.30 03:54:00 - [4] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: If he is first, what does that make me? A hipster.
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2012.12.30 04:03:00 - [5] - Quote mikegunnz wrote: I'm not misreading, you're going under the assumption that it's just the guns that make a difference. I'm arguing that YES the difference in guns is NOT big. HOWEVER, when you factor in EVERYTHING, the proto player can kill the militia player in half the shots. This has nothing to do with proto vs militia fits. The difference in the tiers of guns isn't "not big" it's almost nonexistent. This is to highlight that it doesn't matter what weapon YOU use, because you kill everyone in almost the same amount of bullets regardless of which tier you have equipped. There is no reason to sacrifice more ISK, CPU and PG to fit the higher level gun because it doesn't kill any faster for you.
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2012.12.30 04:34:00 - [6] - Quote Belzeebub Santana wrote: Ok so the point of the spreadsheet is to show that as a person running proto or adv. suits and have the SP in the correct spots don't need to run adv. or proto. guns, saving said player isk. So a person running a standard dropsuit with a proto gun should put out about the same damage as a proto suit running a standard gun, does this assumption seem correct? No, it's that it doesn't matter what gun you use regardless of where you're at. If you have no SP invested, or max your SP investment, or even stack damage mods on top of that, no matter which gun you use, you'll kill at almost the exact same rate. So there's no point in actually using those higher guns you unlock, just as long as you spend your SP in the skills that increase damage passively, because that makes a difference. Using a higher level gun gives you either no extra killing power or practically negligible extra killing power.
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2012.12.30 07:47:00 - [7] - Quote Reimus Klinsman wrote: Rocking higher tier weapons still puts you well ahead of your opposition and it's saved me plenty of times. I fail to see how using vastly more fitting space and ISK to kill someone in 1 less bullet (or the same amount of bullets depending on the upgrade) is putting you "well ahead."
Tiel Syysch Imperfects Negative-Feedback 633	Posted - 2012.12.30 08:08:00 - [8] - Quote Reimus Klinsman wrote: Tiel Syysch wrote: Reimus Klinsman wrote: Rocking higher tier weapons still puts you well ahead of your opposition and it's saved me plenty of times. I fail to see how using vastly more fitting space and ISK to kill someone in 1 less bullet (or the same amount of bullets depending on the upgrade) is putting you "well ahead." Its really quite simple. One less bullet needed to kill a person means that there is less reaction time, higher chance of scaring your opposition, and when you kill them just in the nic of time YOU get to go on to get more kills. I would have assumed you'd understand that by now. Now explain the areas where there is zero improvement in performance when upgrading, because there's many of those. Also, some fits require sacrificing something to fit that proto gun, due to the high cpu/pg cost. If you're having to sacrifice your hp in order to kill in 1 less bullet, you might be dying in 1 less bullet to begin with yourself.

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