DUST Search - [Request] balance tanks / AV on players, not ISK

R F Gyro wrote:

EnglishSnake wrote:

Its how the HAV is made atm

Yep, and I'm proposing we change it.

Quote:

I need all the skills to fit it, even for my gunners i still need to get the small turret skills up just so i can fit the best turrets onto my tank, basically its the driver me who has to do everything as it is

In a game im looking for tanks/AV guys while driving around and activating mods and watching my back

If the HAV is split up so you have 1 driver and 3 gunners then all the skills have to change tbh because i wouldnt skill up any turret skills and tbh i shouldnt have to because im not going to be using them so ther has to be away for my gunners to be able to skill up to the gun/buy the gun then be able to give me the gun to fit onto the tank so they can use it

As a driver in most games i dont want a gun tbh because it distracts me mainly from watching my back and looking out for threats but i have one and i cant even take it off if i wanted to or give it to someone else

But as it is it does take teamwork to take out a tank or it should but i cant help it that its just me in a tank against 3ppl its how its made atm, as a driver/gunner i do more than 3ppl with forge guns who hold down R1 at a supply depot while i try to back up around cover firing and activating mods and hope to god that my turret being at a wrong angle doesnt put me into a wall or up a rock

It sounds like you would support a change that takes the main gun away from the driver then; the current proposal is to give the driver the front small turret instead.

I expect the skills would all change, so this would probably have to be done at the same time as a skills wipe.

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R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.12.02 01:30:00 - [31] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: I dont want MTACs at all tbh Gimmick cheap crap, we already have powered dropsuits and with the ammount of free LAVs take out a leg with it and its on its back for most of the game OK. So the only thing you'll be happy with is the current tank setup, where you can be both driver and gunner on your own? And you insist that it should require multiple other players operating as a team to be competitive against you (as an individual)?
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.12.03 21:12:00 - [32] - Quote One concern with this approach is whether it would be any fun for the tank drivers. The gunners obviously get to shoot stuff, and the tank commanders would have a lot to do, as well as being the primary anti-infantry element. What could be done to make (just) tank driving more fun?
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2012.12.03 22:27:00 - [33] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: One concern with this approach is whether it would be any fun for the tank drivers. The gunners obviously get to shoot stuff, and the tank commanders would have a lot to do, as well as being the primary anti-infantry element. What could be done to make (just) tank driving more fun? Let him drive OVER and crush LAVs flat. That and shoot stuff in front with a small turret.
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.12.04 00:18:00 - [34] - Quote Skihids wrote: Let him drive OVER and crush LAVs flat. Ooohhh... I like that! Quote: That and shoot stuff in front with a small turret. Yep, we'd already got this one.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.12.04 06:20:00 - [35] - Quote Point of clarity, the whole thread is proceeding with the assumption that there are specific and exclusive guns in every slot on a HAV, is the proposal also to eliminate the ability of players to customize their fittings? If not some of the suggestions need a rework as the specific guns, their damage and their targeting rates are currently not defined by the HAV hull but rather are attributes of the turrets. That aside I've had a very different experience with HAVs that many in this thread. For instance the idea that only the main gun matters is profoundly foreign to me. The majority of HAVs I've run in were never deployed without at least one dedicated gunner established before deployment. ISK is, ironically considering the content of this thread, the major limiting factor on HAVs and their use currently with a "driver takes all the risk" mentality being common place enough that frequently HAVs are left undeployed, or not redeployed, even in high stakes games because it's assumed that the driver assumes all cost risk associated with deploying the vehicle. Back when I was a novice gunner it was easy for me to get spots gunning simply by offering to help share the risk by contributing to the cost of a lost vehicle. When balancing a game which is to have economics as a key factor I don't think we can dismiss it within our balance discussions. For example tonight I killed 2 HAVs and 1 LAV using my Militia Heavy and Meta 1 Forge Gun. I lost 4 fits doing this, 2 of which were to infantry support (1 GEK and 1 HMG). I not only inflected greater losses upon the opposing force than I took but I also made ISK overall on the match. I am a novice forge gunner with no advanced fits or skills supporting my AV, and under three weeks of player experience. It's also worth noting that the tanks in question were neither Proto nor Militia (sorry I don't remember the specific HAV types). I cannot take out Proto tanks solo with my current fit, nor should I really be able to, I've yet to test Proto Forges/Heavy so I can't report on that but if it scales the same as Forge vs HAV at low levels then a lone forge gunner with a vantage and some cover can suppress or destroy even multiple enemy vehicles. (Note: Can =/= always will). Making the driver run the front gun seems fine, and giving the top turret more fluid motion for a better rage of vision would be a positive. Generally speaking however I don't see the need for a number of the other changes proposed, under current conditions/ That being said I realize that many of them have been proposed based on presumptions that certain things are coming (pilot suits for example) so my current view on things isn't an out of hand dismissal of the ideas. Honestly in my experience the main "imbalance" when it comes to Infantry vs Vehicle killing is that people want to be able to do it all and get frustrated when they can't have their cake and eat it too. If you're skills and fits are built to kill infantry then they should be good at that and vehicles should give them a hard time. If they're specialized for AV they should be good at that and infantry should give them a hard time. This holds true of the fitting in question is a dropsuit, a HAV, or a Dropship, how you build it should work but not be an "I win" button. Sure it's frustrating to encounter 'rock' when you're running 'cissors' but that's what teamwork is for and it's a calculated risk, take that away and the game as a whole is diminished. It's also worth noting that we have yet to see Bombers, Mecks, or Cloaking. All of these are coming and will change the landscape of the in game meta quite a bit. One final note worth considering is our map pool if one bases the majority of their balance feedback on game played on the map Manus Peak there will be a heavy slant to that feedback when compared with other more tight industrial maps, or even the mid rage Line Harvest. There are many pilots I know who won't even deploy (be it dropship or HAV, even before the recent missile rebalance) their vehicles into those industrial maps because the Risk vs Reward doesn't make it a viable choice, and some of these guys are the same ones who consistently go46/0 (or in the ballpark) on Manus Peak, or high 30s on Line Harvest. Terrain matters, some will be more advantageous to certain fits while being harsh for others. That's not a weakness in the game, that's a sign that we shouldn't expect one tactic, or one fitting, to work every game no matter what the context. I'll close with a little food for thought. Of the last four vehicle heavy games I've played 3/4 of them the team with lots of vehicles lost the match. The one exception was in a Crop battle where their HAVs were supported by both Sniper fire and roaming Assault Mercs. Yes vehicles can be a dominant force, but so can Assaults, or a good Sniper, or a well fit Heavy with a LAV (no LAV required on some maps). Ultimately it is the terrain and the level of teamwork that is more decisive than then random pub matches might suggest. 0.02 ISK Cross
DarkShadowFox Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 238	Posted - 2012.12.04 06:38:00 - [36] - Quote OHOHOH On a completely unrelated topic HAV note, lets remove those small turrets and seats so people cant sit in my HAV and I can have a beautiful Streamlined machine 8D also when that small turret goes bye bye in the front a nice panel of cosmetic armor smooths things out 8D ROLLING LIKE A TRIANGLE. Nothing like a tank Give me isk or imma rob the bank IDK Woof~ Also, Making HAV's more team work based without the driver having to manage the turret AND drive at the same time AND RELY on other people to man the small guns. I would say make the driver drive but give him 360 degrees of view just like the camera is now but hes only able to drive, give the commander the same view but hes only able to command give the small turret gunners their camera view whatever it may be. and give the gunner the same camera but with the zoom in feature THERE BOOM 8D so if we get the ability to remove the small guns on the HAV's theres two people we need so all in all an HAV should run like a well oiled machine with 4 people. ALSO, I seem to be doing better driving HAV's large turret mastery's are useful End of Rant/ Possible Accidental Off Topicness.
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.12.04 10:54:00 - [37] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Point of clarity, the whole thread is proceeding with the assumption that there are specific and exclusive guns in every slot on a HAV, is the proposal also to eliminate the ability of players to customize their fittings? Not sure where you got that impression from. HAVs will continue to have the current 2 small and one large turrets, and can fit whatever they want in them. Quote: That aside I've had a very different experience with HAVs that many in this thread. For instance the idea that only the main gun matters is profoundly foreign to me. The majority of HAVs I've run in were never deployed without at least one dedicated gunner established before deployment. The main gun is the main weapon of the tank, and is currently operated by the driver. Yes, additional gunners are useful, but it is in no way required to successfully use a HAV currently. Quote: ISK is, ironically considering the content of this thread, the major limiting factor on HAVs and their use currently with a "driver takes all the risk" mentality being common place enough that frequently HAVs are left undeployed, or not redeployed, even in high stakes games because it's assumed that the driver assumes all cost risk associated with deploying the vehicle. ISK may be the limiting factor right now, but is unlikely to remain so. That is one of the key points of this thread: in a persistent MMO with a long shelf-life (as CCP hope Dust will be) you inevitably end up with a large number of very, very wealthy players. For these players ISK is not an issue, so they'll use whatever makes them most effective: if a HAV is better than a dropsuit then they'll use a tank. I'm working on the assumption that CCP does not want to make World of Tanks II. Quote: Making the driver run the front gun seems fine, and giving the top turret more fluid motion for a better rage of vision would be a positive. Generally speaking however I don't see the need for a number of the other changes proposed, under current conditions/ That being said I realize that many of them have been proposed based on presumptions that certain things are coming (pilot suits for example) so my current view on things isn't an out of hand dismissal of the ideas. The other changes were primarily aimed at ensuring that it takes 3 players working as a team to operate a HAV, in balance with the need for 3 AV players working as a team to counter it. Quote: Sure it's frustrating to encounter 'rock' when you're running 'cissors' but that's what teamwork is for and it's a calculated risk, take that away and the game as a whole is diminished. In this case I think it is "my rock kills your three scissors". Way more than 0.02 ISK of value there Cross, thanks. Keep it coming. Oh, and I've had to be a bit selective about what I respond to, primarily to keep within the limits of the forum software. Sorry if I seem to have ignored something important.
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.12.05 19:50:00 - [38] - Quote DarkShadowFox wrote: OHOHOH On a completely unrelated topic HAV note, lets remove those small turrets and seats so people cant sit in my HAV and I can have a beautiful Streamlined machine 8D How about a simple "lock the doors" button?
DarkShadowFox Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 238	Posted - 2012.12.05 19:55:00 - [39] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: DarkShadowFox wrote: OHOHOH On a completely unrelated topic HAV note, lets remove those small turrets and seats so people cant sit in my HAV and I can have a beautiful Streamlined machine 8D How about a simple "lock the doors" button? well removing the seat and turrets would free up a good amount of CPU and PG, thats why I keep mentioning it, so I can just have like one main cannon and run around with that feeling a bit less weighed down by the price and by people dying with me incase they try to jump in because their about to die and its really annoying because I need people who dont just jump in because they want to save their lives and stuff. Honestly Like If there more more single cannon tanks, people would have more skill because they could focus on themselves but they would be an big weaker, like a 5% chop on damage resitance... would it make them OP no not really because we have lots of broken swarms and forge gunners... 8D
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.12.09 18:04:00 - [40] - Quote DarkShadowFox wrote: R F Gyro wrote: DarkShadowFox wrote: OHOHOH On a completely unrelated topic HAV note, lets remove those small turrets and seats so people cant sit in my HAV and I can have a beautiful Streamlined machine 8D How about a simple "lock the doors" button? well removing the seat and turrets would free up a good amount of CPU and PG, thats why I keep mentioning it, so I can just have like one main cannon and run around with that feeling a bit less weighed down by the price and by people dying with me incase they try to jump in because their about to die and its really annoying because I need people who dont just jump in because they want to save their lives and stuff. Honestly Like If there more more single cannon tanks, people would have more skill because they could focus on themselves but they would be an big weaker, like a 5% chop on damage resitance... would it make them OP no not really because we have lots of broken swarms and forge gunners... 8D Maybe this should be the MAV (Medium Attack Vehicle), a single seat large gun platform. Less armour/shield than the HAV but a bit faster.

Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 385	Posted - 2012.12.09 19:30:00 - [41] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: I dont want MTACs at all tbh Gimmick cheap crap, we already have powered dropsuits and with the ammount of free LAVs take out a leg with it and its on its back for most of the game OK. So the only thing you'll be happy with is the current tank setup, where you can be both driver and gunner on your own? And you insist that it should require multiple other players operating as a team to be competitive against you (as an individual)? The only other available vehicles are rooted on transportation and teamwork, they SHOULD require teamwork to be used effectively in my opinion and at no point did English say all other vehicles need multiple people ro be effective
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.12.10 00:09:00 - [42] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: I dont want MTACs at all tbh Gimmick cheap crap, we already have powered dropsuits and with the ammount of free LAVs take out a leg with it and its on its back for most of the game OK. So the only thing you'll be happy with is the current tank setup, where you can be both driver and gunner on your own? And you insist that it should require multiple other players operating as a team to be competitive against you (as an individual)? The only other available vehicles are rooted on transportation and teamwork, they SHOULD require teamwork to be used effectively in my opinion and at no point did English say all other vehicles need multiple people ro be effective Sorry, I don't understand this comment at all. Could you clarify?
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 385	Posted - 2012.12.10 00:13:00 - [43] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: I dont want MTACs at all tbh Gimmick cheap crap, we already have powered dropsuits and with the ammount of free LAVs take out a leg with it and its on its back for most of the game OK. So the only thing you'll be happy with is the current tank setup, where you can be both driver and gunner on your own? And you insist that it should require multiple other players operating as a team to be competitive against you (as an individual)? The only other available vehicles are rooted on transportation and teamwork, they SHOULD require teamwork to be used effectively in my opinion and at no point did English say all other vehicles need multiple people ro be effective Sorry, I don't understand this comment at all. Could you clarify? English snake didn't say only tanks should be able to be effectively able to use by one person and the only other vehicles in the game aren't comparable
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.12.10 10:50:00 - [44] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: English snake didn't say only tanks should be able to be effectively able to use by one person and the only other vehicles in the game aren't comparable I know, I never suggested he did.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.12.10 13:23:00 - [45] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: I dont want MTACs at all tbh Gimmick cheap crap, we already have powered dropsuits and with the ammount of free LAVs take out a leg with it and its on its back for most of the game OK. So the only thing you'll be happy with is the current tank setup, where you can be both driver and gunner on your own? And you insist that it should require multiple other players operating as a team to be competitive against you (as an individual)? Its how the HAV is made atm I need all the skills to fit it, even for my gunners i still need to get the small turret skills up just so i can fit the best turrets onto my tank, basically its the driver me who has to do everything as it is In a game im looking for tanks/AV guys while driving around and activating mods and watching my back If the HAV is split up so you have 1 driver and 3 gunners then all the skills have to change tbh because i wouldnt skill up any turret skills and tbh i shouldnt have to because im not going to be using them so ther has to be away for my gunners to be able to skill up to the gun/buy the gun then be able to give me the gun to fit onto the tank so they can use it As a driver in most games i dont want a gun tbh because it distracts me mainly from watching my back and looking out for threats but i have one and i cant even take it off if i wanted to or give it to someone else But as it is it does take teamwork to take out a tank or it should but i cant help it that its just me in a tank against 3ppl its how its made atm, as a driver/gunner i do more than 3ppl with forge guns who hold down R1 at a supply depot while i try to back up around cover firing and activating mods and hope to god that my turret being at a wrong angle doesnt put me into a wall or up a rock We dont even have pilot suits yet and they may make a difference and with mods that might imporve a tanks defenses or offensive capabilitys and it may stack if you also have a full tank with 3 pilot suits and with diff mods
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.12.10 13:30:00 - [46] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Yea its a no from me I'm not massively surprised by that Could you support this if the MTACS were introduced at the same time as this change, so that you still have your single-player mech-monster? I dont want MTACs at all tbh Gimmick cheap crap, we already have powered dropsuits and with the ammount of free LAVs take out a leg with it and its on its back for most of the game not even implemented yet but gimmick? lol MTACs would be a fun addition just like fighters and gunships
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.12.10 13:32:00 - [47] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Yea its a no from me I'm not massively surprised by that Could you support this if the MTACS were introduced at the same time as this change, so that you still have your single-player mech-monster? I dont want MTACs at all tbh Gimmick cheap crap, we already have powered dropsuits and with the ammount of free LAVs take out a leg with it and its on its back for most of the game not even implemented yet but gimmick? lol MTACs would be a fun addition just like fighters and gunships Meh If ther in ther in but if i plow into ther legs they better fall the **** over so i can run over them
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.12.10 13:50:00 - [48] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Its how the HAV is made atm Yep, and I'm proposing we change it. Quote: I need all the skills to fit it, even for my gunners i still need to get the small turret skills up just so i can fit the best turrets onto my tank, basically its the driver me who has to do everything as it is In a game im looking for tanks/AV guys while driving around and activating mods and watching my back If the HAV is split up so you have 1 driver and 3 gunners then all the skills have to change tbh because i wouldnt skill up any turret skills and tbh i shouldnt have to because im not going to be using them so ther has to be away for my gunners to be able to skill up to the gun/buy the gun then be able to give me the gun to fit onto the tank so they can use it As a driver in most games i dont want a gun tbh because it distracts me mainly from watching my back and looking out for threats but i have one and i cant even take it off if i wanted to or give it to someone else But as it is it does take teamwork to take out a tank or it should but i cant help it that its just me in a tank against 3ppl its how its made atm, as a driver/gunner i do more than 3ppl with forge guns who hold down R1 at a supply depot while i try to back up around cover firing and activating mods and hope to god that my turret being at a wrong angle doesnt put me into a wall or up a rock It sounds like you would support a change that takes the main gun away from the driver then; the current proposal is to give the driver the front small turret instead. I expect the skills would all change, so this would probably have to be done at the same time as a skills wipe.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.12.10 14:00:00 - [49] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Its how the HAV is made atm Yep, and I'm proposing we change it. Quote: I need all the skills to fit it, even for my gunners i still need to get the small turret skills up just so i can fit the best turrets onto my tank, basically its the driver me who has to do everything as it is In a game im looking for tanks/AV guys while driving around and activating mods and watching my back If the HAV is split up so you have 1 driver and 3 gunners then all the skills have to change tbh because i wouldnt skill up any turret skills and tbh i shouldnt have to because im not going to be using them so ther has to be away for my gunners to be able to skill up to the gun/buy the gun then be able to give me the gun to fit onto the tank so they can use it As a driver in most games i dont want a gun tbh because it distracts me mainly from watching my back and looking out for threats but i have one and i cant even take it off if i wanted to or give it to someone else But as it is it does take teamwork to take out a tank or it should but i cant help it that its just me in a tank against 3ppl its how its made atm, as a driver/gunner i do more than 3ppl with forge guns who hold down R1 at a supply depot while i try to back up around cover firing and activating mods and hope to god that my turret being at a wrong angle doesnt put me into a wall or up a rock It sounds like you would support a change that takes the main gun away from the driver then; the current proposal is to give the driver the front small turret instead. I expect the skills would all change, so this would probably have to be done at the same time as a skills wipe. That idea is even worse Small turret is worse than the large, id rarther have no turret so i concentrate on driving
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.12.10 15:20:00 - [50] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: That idea is even worse Small turret is worse than the large, id rarther have no turret so i concentrate on driving Could you simply not use it? It would be trivial to get rid of it, but then we'd have complaints from all the drivers who want a gun.

EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.12.10 15:25:00 - [51] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: That idea is even worse Small turret is worse than the large, id rarther have no turret so i concentrate on driving Could you simply not use it? It would be trivial to get rid of it, but then we'd have complaints from all the drivers who want a gun. If its made for the driver it means no one else can use it so its a useless turret anyways in my tank
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.12.10 15:42:00 - [52] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: That idea is even worse Small turret is worse than the large, id rarther have no turret so i concentrate on driving Could you simply not use it? It would be trivial to get rid of it, but then we'd have complaints from all the drivers who want a gun. If its made for the driver it means no one else can use it so its a useless turret anyways in my tank Would you suggest multiple HAV types then? Some with a small turret for the driver and some without? Or just that no HAV drivers have guns at all.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.12.10 15:43:00 - [53] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: That idea is even worse Small turret is worse than the large, id rarther have no turret so i concentrate on driving Could you simply not use it? It would be trivial to get rid of it, but then we'd have complaints from all the drivers who want a gun. If its made for the driver it means no one else can use it so its a useless turret anyways in my tank Would you suggest multiple HAV types then? Some with a small turret for the driver and some without? Or just that no HAV drivers have guns at all. We should have multiple tanks, we dont have a choice tbh
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.12.10 16:13:00 - [54] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: R F Gyro wrote: Could you simply not use it? It would be trivial to get rid of it, but then we'd have complaints from all the drivers who want a gun. If its made for the driver it means no one else can use it so its a useless turret anyways in my tank Would you suggest multiple HAV types then? Some with a small turret for the driver and some without? Or just that no HAV drivers have guns at all. We should have multiple tanks, we dont have a choice tbh Would it be a enough if you could simply leave the turret empty (no default weapon in it) as per your other thread?
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.12.10 16:39:00 - [55] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: R F Gyro wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: R F Gyro wrote: Could you simply not use it? It would be trivial to get rid of it, but then we'd have complaints from all the drivers who want a gun. If its made for the driver it means no one else can use it so its a useless turret anyways in my tank Would you suggest multiple HAV types then? Some with a small turret for the driver and some without? Or just that no HAV drivers have guns at all. We should have multiple tanks, we dont have a choice tbh Would it be a enough if you could simply leave the turret empty (no default weapon in it) as per your other thread? Not if i still have the view of the front turret But if i could take it off i would anyways, i want to be able to take all turrets off anyways if i choose to


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