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R F Gyro
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
315
   |
Posted - 2012.11.27 18:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
I wasn't planning to post this due to the expectation of an overwhelming negative response from tank drivers, but I had an encouraging response to the idea from a tank driver in another thread so lets see how it goes.
It seems to me the it will simply not be possible to achieve a balance between tanks and AV with the current implementation; tanks right now are basically single player constructs (aside from a couple of gunners along for the ride) whereas everyone agrees that to kill one should take an AV team. The problem is that we're trying to balance based on the ISK cost of in-game items, and this is a fundamentally flawed approach.
The most scare resource in Dust warfare isn't ISK or Aurum or skill points; it is players. The game should be balanced around that, not around ISK. Who gives a stuff if your tank is more expensive than my dropsuit; the constraint is the players, not the ISK. Trying to balance using ISK has failed dramatically in Eve (Titan blobs anyone?) and I strongly suspect it will do so in Dust.
The solution seems simple to me: balance around a 3 player tank team fighting a 3 player AV team, assuming equal ISK on both sides.
Reds have a 1.5 million ISK tank fit that requires a driver, a gunner and a commander (assume the game is patched so the driver can't fire the main gun, both driver and gunner have limited field of view and the commander has good visibility and an anti-infantry HMG).
Blues have 3 x 500K AV dropsuits.
That should be an even battle and player skill and teamwork would be the decider.
I appreciate that tanks requiring multiple players is not a new idea, but maybe this gives a bit more context into why it is a good idea.
Flame on. |
ugg reset
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
234
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Posted - 2012.11.27 18:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why is team work only brought up when it comes to killing tanks? Why don't groups of tankers run together? you have the PG for the best shield and armor reppers in game and yet even after corps have been established you never see them used.
It blows my mind that high end Tanks need to hide behind cover when good AV is on the field. In a large battle enemy infantry should be an after thought or at the very most a nuisance that left unchallenged could end up killing you. the real chalenge for the tank will be other tanks and turrets large and small that will have the fire power and range needed to halt their advance.
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Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
969
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Posted - 2012.11.27 19:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
ugg reset wrote:Why is team work only brought up when it comes to killing tanks? Why don't groups of tankers run together? you have the PG for the best shield and armor reppers in game and yet even after corps have been established you never see them used.
It blows my mind that high end Tanks need to hide behind cover when good AV is on the field. In a large battle enemy infantry should be an after thought or at the very most a nuisance that left unchallenged could end up killing you. the real chalenge for the tank will be other tanks and turrets large and small that will have the fire power and range needed to halt their advance.
That's a good question. The Dev's videos always show multiple tanks at one time so they must be thinking along those lines themselves. Of course they also show multiple tanks on the opposing side as well. A real ISK sink there... |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
969
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Posted - 2012.11.27 19:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
The forums discussed pulling the main gun from tankers and creating true multi-player vehicles before the great tank/railgun nerf. A number of vocal tank drivers were vehemently against the idea, and some rightfully pointed out that separating the functions would strengthen the vehicle.
At the time I argued that ISK cost didn't matter when it could be operated very effectively by one man. Basically it became a "Titan" suit, or as I called it a "Super Heavy Suit" and enabled every member of the opposing team the ability to become invincible.
The invincible aspect went away with the speed, armor, and railgun nerfs, but not the one man nature of the vehicle. DUST is all about teamwork so I don't see a need for HAV's to be effective with one occupant. I say we should reward an organized three man tank team with a truly powerful vehicle, but only when it has a competent three man team inside it. |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
315
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Posted - 2012.11.27 19:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
Skihids wrote:I say we should reward an organized three man tank team with a truly powerful vehicle, but only when it has a competent three man team inside it.
Sounds good to me.
Maybe the current HAVs should be kept, and a new, stronger category of HAV introduced that requires 3 players to operate.
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R F Gyro
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
315
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 19:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
ugg reset wrote:
It blows my mind that high end Tanks need to hide behind cover when good AV is on the field. In a large battle enemy infantry should be an after thought or at the very most a nuisance that left unchallenged could end up killing you. the real chalenge for the tank will be other tanks and turrets large and small that will have the fire power and range needed to halt their advance.
Balancing on players will allow for stronger tanks that have a fair chance even against competent AV, without making them OP relative to other player options.
Balancing a game based only on the real world is never going to work, unfortunately, as there are very different constraints. You make the game as realistic as possible without compromising gameplay. Besides, in the real world an unsupported tank would still probably run away from a dedicated AV squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin). |
Jotun Hiem
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
412
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Posted - 2012.11.27 22:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
ugg reset wrote:It blows my mind that high end Tanks need to hide behind cover when good AV is on the field. In a large battle enemy infantry should be an after thought or at the very most a nuisance that left unchallenged could end up killing you. the real chalenge for the tank will be other tanks and turrets large and small that will have the fire power and range needed to halt their advance.
AV units sending unsupported tanks into hiding is fine.
The problem is that in pub matches, no one is helping to support the tank, which means any AV presence will be a serious problem. Even more so if said AV is a Forge Gunner in some remote spot on them map. Ironically, the same problem happens with the AV guys and their team, it just so happens that tanks are easier to spot.
All I can really suggest to you is that you run with some sqauddies dedicated to keeping AV off the field or away from your tank. |
Ranger SnakeBlood
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
126
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Posted - 2012.11.27 22:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
I like the idea of having to have a dedicated 3 man team for a powerful tank after all tanks should be powerful thats what it does, if the tank suddenly needs 3 men to be fully crewed them buffs to the turrets armour and small weapons could be viable, other things i would add to a suggestion like this.
1: The Commander should have access to third person veiw with look around funtionality, as well as the top small gun
2: Gunner only has access to the main weapon with limited vision, this turret should now be powerful
3: Driver would be in charge of moving the vehicle and activating modules but i think he should also have access to the already implemented front gun this would be only veiw from tank
4: AMMO tanks need ammo everything else uses ammo why dont tanks this would meen tanks need supply line to be useful long term making it risky for the tank to just rush on in.
To replace the current one man army tank would be the APC this should be significently weaker and deal less armor damage than a MBT this a general idea of what i have in mind is
1: gunner and driver are one.
2: still needs ammo trying to add more roles for logies here people.
3: have a place in it for infantry soidiers to get in maybe 4 to 8 slots?
4: medium size weapons good vrs light vehicle or infantry or Aircraft depending on choice, reason is it makes it a good support vehicle but still leaves it weak against the MBT
5: some what fast not as fast as LAV but able to out run a tank, about same armour as we have now to provide mobile cover.
The main idea behind this is it is ment to support the infantry with mobile cover situational cover fire. |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
315
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 23:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yep, Ranger, you seem to be on the same wavelength as me here. The ABC sounds like a good approach.
I like the idea of the tank driver having control over a forward facing machine gun. |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
315
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 11:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
I was expecting more hate than this. |
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EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1012
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Posted - 2012.11.28 13:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
TBH in pub matches it really doesnt matter but if you talk about an organized corp battle for example a 3man tank crew will prob get alpha'd by a 3man AV crew as it stands since AV vs tanks is unbalanced
You cannot teamwork in a tank as it is now, the driver has to do it all because its all on him, the gunners are next to useless in the turrets and are better outside the tank
Right now its the driver vs 3 AV guys
As for teamwork in a tank cant really do it because the game really doesnt allow it yet, its more like teamwork with the infantry and not the gunners inside the tank
Because the driver does it all to begin with its all on him and having 2 gunners in his tank doesnt really offer any advanatges anymore
Only way is if pilot suits and maybe certain skill will help boost the tank, so just say the pilot suit offers like 5% bonus to something which helps the tank then 3 ppl all with pilot suits get in a tank then the tank get 15% of whatever it is. Lets also assume the pilot suit gets special mods which help to increase resistances/shield hp/recharge rate/armor resists/hp/turrets ROF/DPS/range etc so you can have 3 ppl in a tank all with different mods which would add bonuses to the tank and effectively make it stronger, as for the mods they would have stacking penalties across the enitre team so if 2 ppl have the same mods they would get a stacking penalty
As for teamwork on the AV side i rarely see it, i dont count ppl with miilta swarms spamming it from the otherside of the map as teamwork, its more like a last desperate measure when that tank is annoying everyone. Sometimes when i see teamwork its 3 forge guns in a LAV dring upto me all hoping out and hitting me me with everything they got not hiding in the hillside complaining why ther basic AV does nothing |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
315
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 16:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:stuff about current gameplay
I was talking about the way I think it should be, not the way it is right now.
Specifically, I think the following changes should be made to tanks...
* The driver should control the front machine gun, not the main gun, and have a narrower field of view
* The main gun should have a higher zoom level and a narrower field of view, and possibly turn slower
* The top turret should turn almost as fast as a heavy dropsuit and support a good anti-infantry weapon
Also, I think the main and top guns should (if manned) maintain their heading relative to the map rather than the tank, absent any control from the operator.
Restricting the view for the driver & gunner, while enhancing it for the top turret is intended to promote a "tank commander" role, with the commander issuing instructions for the driver and gunner.
Having the main gun zoomed in will also make it harder for it to be used against close targets, which in my view is a good thing. To compensate, there could be a 2 speed traverse option; fast traverse for swinging round towards the target, then slow traverse for accurate targeting of distant objects.
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Shiro Mokuzan
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
106
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 17:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm a tank specialist and I support separating the driver and main gunner. I think vehicle crews should pretty much be a squad unto themselves.
I wouldn't even need any gun if I could use both sticks to drive like an actual tank (one for each track). Plus then the commander would be needed for situational awareness and visibility, since the driver could only look forward.
I think tanks need a defense buff, though. Right now if they actually try to push into the front line they die pretty quickly, forcing them into the role of long-range sniping, from way behind the line. I want to be on the front lines, supporting infantry advances, not sniping from my base. |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
315
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 18:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Shiro Mokuzan wrote:I'm a tank specialist and I support separating the driver and main gunner. I think vehicle crews should pretty much be a squad unto themselves.
I wouldn't even need any gun if I could use both sticks to drive like an actual tank (one for each track). Plus then the commander would be needed for situational awareness and visibility, since the driver could only look forward.
Love the 2 sticks idea. +1 there.
Quote:
I think tanks need a defense buff, though. Right now if they actually try to push into the front line they die pretty quickly, forcing them into the role of long-range sniping, from way behind the line. I want to be on the front lines, supporting infantry advances, not sniping from my base.
Yep. As soon as it requires 3 players to crew a tank it becomes possible to buff them again without people crying about them being overpowered. |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
315
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 18:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:Only way is if pilot suits and maybe certain skill will help boost the tank, so just say the pilot suit offers like 5% bonus to something which helps the tank then 3 ppl all with pilot suits get in a tank then the tank get 15% of whatever it is. Lets also assume the pilot suit gets special mods which help to increase resistances/shield hp/recharge rate/armor resists/hp/turrets ROF/DPS/range etc so you can have 3 ppl in a tank all with different mods which would add bonuses to the tank and effectively make it stronger, as for the mods they would have stacking penalties across the enitre team so if 2 ppl have the same mods they would get a stacking penalty
I like the idea of suits and skills giving targetted bonuses like this.
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EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 18:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:EnglishSnake wrote:stuff about current gameplay I was talking about the way I think it should be, not the way it is right now. Specifically, I think the following changes should be made to tanks... * The driver should control the front machine gun, not the main gun, and have a narrower field of view * The main gun should have a higher zoom level and a narrower field of view, and possibly turn slower * The top turret should turn almost as fast as a heavy dropsuit and support a good anti-infantry weapon Also, I think the main and top guns should (if manned) maintain their heading relative to the map rather than the tank, absent any control from the operator. Restricting the view for the driver & gunner, while enhancing it for the top turret is intended to promote a "tank commander" role, with the commander issuing instructions for the driver and gunner. Having the main gun zoomed in will also make it harder for it to be used against close targets, which in my view is a good thing. To compensate, there could be a 2 speed traverse option; fast traverse for swinging round towards the target, then slow traverse for accurate targeting of distant objects.
So you want to gimp the driver by limiting his veiw and make him look constantly forward while having a pointless small turret to control
Gimp the main gun because its not like they are already slow as it is like the railgun is and also make it zoomed in so that targets upclose are next to impossible to hit because your turret takes an ice age to move, sure rely on the small guns to do something but lets be honest they are crap and useless
Yea not buying it if im the driver i need full view not a nerfed area to look at because AV have it so hard right now they need to nerf the tank and users even more
Its a bad idea and wouldnt make the tank tank require more teamwork it would require more driver skill to work with a gimped out tank and view and make it free points to any AV |
Arron Rift
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 19:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:Skihids wrote:I say we should reward an organized three man tank team with a truly powerful vehicle, but only when it has a competent three man team inside it. Sounds good to me. Maybe the current HAVs should be kept, and a new, stronger category of HAV introduced that requires 3 players to operate.
Or they could make the current ones multiplayer and add smaller, one-man "Light tanks"
Great ideas everyone! |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 19:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
If you did limit the driver's view I suggest adding a rear view he can switch to when backing up. Actually I would add that regardless. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 19:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
I recall this very point being made on a video review of the Planetside2 beta. The reviewer compared a one man tank to a three man tank. |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
315
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 20:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
Skihids wrote:If you did limit the driver's view I suggest adding a rear view he can switch to when backing up. Actually I would add that regardless.
Yep, good idea. |
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R F Gyro
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
315
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Posted - 2012.11.28 20:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:So you want to gimp the driver by limiting his veiw and make him look constantly forward while having a pointless small turret to control
Gimp the main gun because its not like they are already slow as it is like the railgun is and also make it zoomed in so that targets upclose are next to impossible to hit because your turret takes an ice age to move, sure rely on the small guns to do something but lets be honest they are crap and useless
Yea not buying it if im the driver i need full view not a nerfed area to look at because AV have it so hard right now they need to nerf the tank and users even more
Its a bad idea and wouldnt make the tank tank require more teamwork it would require more driver skill to work with a gimped out tank and view and make it free points to any AV
Yep, we're gimping the driver, big time. The driver should be driving. The front machine gun is a bonus.
The reduced field of view will mean more teamwork required, because the driver will have to rely on the commander to get the big picture.
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Shiro Mokuzan
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
106
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 20:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
Skihids wrote:If you did limit the driver's view I suggest adding a rear view he can switch to when backing up. Actually I would add that regardless.
Yeah, I had the same thought after posting earlier. Just have a button you can hold for rear view. |
Arron Rift
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
73
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Posted - 2012.11.28 21:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
I like this idea. Though I'll miss being able to play a tank all by myself, having tanks be reserved for groups that have the teamwork/coordination to use them will allow for tanks to be as powerful as they should be without them dominating every match.
Also, the driver/gunner/commander wouldn't even require that they redesign the models. They could allow the front-gunner to steer the tank with the L stick (he can only see in front of the tank), force the turret-gunner to be stuck in the R3-sight mode (he can't see behind the giant, slow turret), and put the commander up in the tiny turret on the top (he can quickly look all around the tank, and maybe they could even give him the panned-back view that the driver has in the current build).
Again, great ideas guys! |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
460
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 22:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
they should get rid of all AV and refund the points to pump into vehicles. AV is only good if your entire team is using it. alone or even with a group of skill AV all you do is halt the advance allowing them to just bomb an area getting their skill free kills, then you spend half the game getting killed by everything losing isk not getting any war points just to prevent a tank from moving forward. |
angelarch
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
93
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Posted - 2012.11.29 04:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
ugg reset wrote:...
It blows my mind that high end Tanks need to hide behind cover when good AV is on the field. In a large battle enemy infantry should be an after thought or at the very most a nuisance that left unchallenged could end up killing you. the real chalenge for the tank will be other tanks and turrets large and small that will have the fire power and range needed to halt their advance.
"should be an afterthought" as in game mechanics or real life comparison?
In real life, the most dangerous thing on the battlefield to a tank is a single infantryman with a man-portable anti-tank weapon, not another tank.
. . .well, that and attack helicopters if your enemy has them.
Tank on tank battles are a romantic thing of yesteryear wars. |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
315
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 09:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
Arron Rift wrote:Also, the driver/gunner/commander wouldn't even require that they redesign the models. They could allow the front-gunner to steer the tank with the L stick (he can only see in front of the tank), force the turret-gunner to be stuck in the R3-sight mode (he can't see behind the giant, slow turret), and put the commander up in the tiny turret on the top (he can quickly look all around the tank, and maybe they could even give him the panned-back view that the driver has in the current build).
That works for me. +1
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EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 12:56:00 -
[27] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:EnglishSnake wrote:So you want to gimp the driver by limiting his veiw and make him look constantly forward while having a pointless small turret to control
Gimp the main gun because its not like they are already slow as it is like the railgun is and also make it zoomed in so that targets upclose are next to impossible to hit because your turret takes an ice age to move, sure rely on the small guns to do something but lets be honest they are crap and useless
Yea not buying it if im the driver i need full view not a nerfed area to look at because AV have it so hard right now they need to nerf the tank and users even more
Its a bad idea and wouldnt make the tank tank require more teamwork it would require more driver skill to work with a gimped out tank and view and make it free points to any AV Yep, we're gimping the driver, big time. The driver should be driving. The front machine gun is a bonus. The reduced field of view will mean more teamwork required, because the driver will have to rely on the commander to get the big picture.
Yea its a no from me
As a driver the field of view is fine as it is, i can still get whacked from my blindside because im always looking forward mainly, i dont need a gimped veiw to know im getting whacked from behind |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
315
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 20:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:Yea its a no from me
I'm not massively surprised by that 
Could you support this if the MTACS were introduced at the same time as this change, so that you still have your single-player mech-monster? |
R F Gyro
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
315
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 09:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
So, surprisingly, I'm seeing more support than hate for this idea.
Anyone else want to jump in with an opinion? |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection
Caldari State
1012
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Posted - 2012.12.01 13:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:EnglishSnake wrote:Yea its a no from me
I'm not massively surprised by that Could you support this if the MTACS were introduced at the same time as this change, so that you still have your single-player mech-monster?
I dont want MTACs at all tbh
Gimmick cheap crap, we already have powered dropsuits and with the ammount of free LAVs take out a leg with it and its on its back for most of the game |
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