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Michael Cratar
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
179
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Posted - 2012.11.16 23:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. |
Forlorn Destrier
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
914
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 23:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Michael Cratar wrote:When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless.
I suspect it wasn't a direct hit, or it wasn't a militia LAV like you thought. |
Belzeebub Santana
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
409
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Posted - 2012.11.16 23:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
All of my LAV's are paper thin, AV nades, militia swarms, and yes any forge gun turns them in to a hearse. |
Kaze Eyrou
ROGUE SPADES
53
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Posted - 2012.11.16 23:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Michael Cratar wrote:When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. If it didn't take out a Militia LAV in one shot, that "Milita" LAV wasn't Militia.
Plus, if you're just using the level 1 forge gun, it doesn't do much compared to a prototype. |
Tyrus 4
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
83
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Posted - 2012.11.17 00:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Michael Cratar wrote:When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless.
I make Militia LAVs disintegrate.
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Tyrus 4
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
83
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Posted - 2012.11.17 00:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kaze Eyrou wrote:Michael Cratar wrote:When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. If it didn't take out a Militia LAV in one shot, that "Milita" LAV wasn't Militia.Plus, if you're just using the level 1 forge gun, it doesn't do much compared to a prototype.
yup.
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843 pano
843 Boot Camp
200
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Posted - 2012.11.17 00:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
My free LAV can take one hit from a non "breach" forge and keep going... you just need to know how to set them up with free BPO's. So many people don't change their set up of their free LAV... knuckleheads.
A breach FG would OHK it though...
But my saga... that's a different story all together. |
Overlord Zero
Doomheim
75
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Posted - 2012.11.17 00:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Your point's, invalid. Your overall idea, valid. Picture this. 2 maxed Myrons and 2 maxed gunlogis + infantry vs a field full of forge gunners + infantry. Vehicle side wins hands down every time. Why? Well, forge guns have limited range and poor aiming, so being semi close to a target is a must. In order to get close to a tank, you have to navigate through dropship fire and infantry. Who's gonna take out the dropships so you can get at the tanks? Swarm launchers? Ha! Oh, right, you. Ok. So you try to line up a shot on a dropship, you have it in your sights, you fire right at it, and.... nothing. Why?! Oh, right, not enough range. Well, got to get closer. Oh wait, freaking tanks.
Yes, you can upgrade your forge range. Guess what? A dropship or tank turret can still hit you with OHK missiles FAR outside even max range on a forge gun. And missile splash damage? WAY better than forge gun splash.
Missiles are the real issue here sonce no one has been complaining about rail guns or blasters recently. I have a forge gun that cannot hit you to 5HK you, but YOU CAN hit ME with a missile that will OHK me.
Pilots say "My vehicle SHOULD be taking them out easy, that's what it's made to do!" Perhaps. Except your argument doesn't take into account the fact that this is not real life where things are supposed to work as they do in real life, this is a game where things must be balanced in order to succeed. Also, your argument doesn't take into account that forge guns are weapons that do not exist in reality and therefore cannot be gauged against what you know about tanks in real life.
Edit: As for the pricing issue, aka "Tanks cost way more than forge guns!". HMG's cost way more than assault rifles as well, but AR's still kill HMG users quite often. And LAV's can be pretty darn expensive too with turrets and damage mods and all, but a decent level AV 'nade takes them out just as easy for a fraction of the cost of the LAV. I have a Saga personally that runs 300,000+, but the top level AV grenade costs less than 10% of that cost |
The Polish Hammer
Doomheim
373
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Posted - 2012.11.17 01:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Come....let us show you the way of the Forge Gun |
Forlorn Destrier
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
914
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Posted - 2012.11.17 01:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
843 pano wrote:My free LAV can take one hit from a non "breach" forge and keep going... you just need to know how to set them up with free BPO's. So many people don't change their set up of their free LAV... knuckleheads.
A breach FG would OHK it though...
But my saga... that's a different story all together.
When you fit it, it's not a true Militia in the way he means - he means the free ones everyone gets that people don't invest in - the "starter" fits. |
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Overlord Zero
Doomheim
75
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Posted - 2012.11.17 01:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
Forlorn Destrier wrote:843 pano wrote:My free LAV can take one hit from a non "breach" forge and keep going... you just need to know how to set them up with free BPO's. So many people don't change their set up of their free LAV... knuckleheads.
A breach FG would OHK it though...
But my saga... that's a different story all together. When you fit it, it's not a true Militia in the way he means - he means the free ones everyone gets that people don't invest in - the "starter" fits. I know what he's saying, but only an idiot complains that a forge gun is OHKing his unfitted starter fit... OOOOOOOOOOOOHH....I seee..... |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
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Posted - 2012.11.17 05:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Forlorn Destrier wrote:843 pano wrote:My free LAV can take one hit from a non "breach" forge and keep going... you just need to know how to set them up with free BPO's. So many people don't change their set up of their free LAV... knuckleheads.
A breach FG would OHK it though...
But my saga... that's a different story all together. When you fit it, it's not a true Militia in the way he means - he means the free ones everyone gets that people don't invest in - the "starter" fits. If you add AUR-purchased BPO modules to the Starter Fit, there's literally no way he can tell whether it's still the Starter Fit version or if it's something better.
But if it's only using Militia BPOs, it's still a Militia LAV. And while it technically CAN take a Forge hit, it's a close call and you'll probably explode from a few SMG rounds. |
slap26
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
461
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Posted - 2012.11.17 07:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Overlord Zero wrote:. I have a Saga personally that runs 300,000+, but the top level AV grenade costs less than 10% of that cost
and your LAV costs around 13% of my sagaris... |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
163
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Posted - 2012.11.17 08:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
9K330 with x2 Enhanced Damage Amplifiers and Weaponry Lvl 5. Honestly, I haven't seen many LAVs on the field that could handle more than one direct hit when I've been playing. |
Jonquill Caronite
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
115
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Posted - 2012.11.17 08:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
Overlord Zero wrote:Your point's, invalid. Your overall idea, valid. Picture this. 2 maxed Myrons and 2 maxed gunlogis + infantry vs a field full of forge gunners + infantry. Vehicle side wins hands down every time. Why? Well, forge guns have limited range and poor aiming, so being semi close to a target is a must. In order to get close to a tank, you have to navigate through dropship fire and infantry. Who's gonna take out the dropships so you can get at the tanks? Swarm launchers? Ha! Oh, right, you. Ok. So you try to line up a shot on a dropship, you have it in your sights, you fire right at it, and.... nothing. Why?! Oh, right, not enough range. Well, got to get closer. Oh wait, freaking tanks.
Yes, you can upgrade your forge range. Guess what? A dropship or tank turret can still hit you with OHK missiles FAR outside even max range on a forge gun. And missile splash damage? WAY better than forge gun splash.
Missiles are the real issue here sonce no one has been complaining about rail guns or blasters recently. I have a forge gun that cannot hit you to 5HK you, but YOU CAN hit ME with a missile that will OHK me.
Pilots say "My vehicle SHOULD be taking them out easy, that's what it's made to do!" Perhaps. Except your argument doesn't take into account the fact that this is not real life where things are supposed to work as they do in real life, this is a game where things must be balanced in order to succeed. Also, your argument doesn't take into account that forge guns are weapons that do not exist in reality and therefore cannot be gauged against what you know about tanks in real life.
Edit: As for the pricing issue, aka "Tanks cost way more than forge guns!". HMG's cost way more than assault rifles as well, but AR's still kill HMG users quite often. And LAV's can be pretty darn expensive too with turrets and damage mods and all, but a decent level AV 'nade takes them out just as easy for a fraction of the cost of the LAV. I have a Saga personally that runs 300,000+, but the top level AV grenade costs less than 10% of that cost
Honestly... This game will probably work perfectly in spite of all that's being said, it will balance EVE by being a HUGE initial ISK sink... So at first everyone and their mother will spend all they can to be as OP as possible, and because Dust stuff is 'relatively' cheap compared to EVE stuff, it won't even scratch EVE Corp budgets... But the key here is that its a battle of attrition... The amount of ISK being generated by throwing Prototypes out willy-nilly and blowing them up par for par, will never ever be greater then what is lost.
Why is this relevant? Simple for the first 3 months of this game after launch, it will be a huge ISK sink, and balance inflation, and remove some of the extremely top heavy difference by reducing the wallets of all the rich people who can afford to fund this ground wars. But as players on both sides get smarter they'll realize that winning battles isn't important if what you LOSE in the battle doesn't equal even close to what you gain. Winning battles in a 'cost effective' manner will become more important then winning battles period...
This is where tanks come in and rather or not they are balance... Right now they actually are balanced in spite of the cost. Because you can't afford to fund both sides of a tank blitz for eternity, they are still enough of a sink that if you try to do that it will sink the EVE economy just as fast as it will sink the Dust economy... Sure it will solve the inflation problem... But the new problem will be no ISK at all...
In any case the hypothetical was all tank crews with infantry support, versus all Forge crews with infantry support. Which will win? Well obviously the tank, I agree with the poster on this point... However, this is where its important to pay attention, even though the tanks will win, even given the fact that Heavies with weapons and gear are expensive, they don't even come close to the cost of Tanks with support and hear... This is important because in a war with two sides doing this, one side may lose all the battles, but if they can slow down the others advance and attrify their wallet, then the forge side will win hands down... And then pushing the enemy back is as easy as can be... Fact of the matter is:
TANKS DONT NEED ANOTHER NERF. But neither do they need a buff... You just need to recognize that there is more to this game then K/D ratio, or W/L ratio, or even individual cost... All are important, and if you aren't viewing balance from the perspective of ALL THREE, then you are ignorant of the way this game needs to be balanced... |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
132
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Posted - 2012.11.18 06:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
I don't agree when people use the 'tanks are expensive therefore their dominance is justified' argument. People who write this usually compare the price of a tank to the price of a Forge Gun + Suit. As an AV specialist, I can tell you that it takes sometimes 5-10 heavy suits equipped with forge guns dying while trying to get into a postition to shoot at the tank. If you add up the price of the suits, it's more than the price of the tank. Meanwhile that heavy suit who died and respawned 10 times just to down that tank and help his team out is not earning xp or isk worth of snutt but the tank would have gone 15/0 by that point. The math is painfully obvious. |
Overlord Zero
Doomheim
75
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Posted - 2013.01.09 05:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote:I don't agree when people use the 'tanks are expensive therefore their dominance is justified' argument. People who write this usually compare the price of a tank to the price of a Forge Gun + Suit. As an AV specialist, I can tell you that it takes sometimes 5-10 heavy suits equipped with forge guns dying while trying to get into a postition to shoot at the tank. If you add up the price of the suits, it's more than the price of the tank. Meanwhile that heavy suit who died and respawned 10 times just to down that tank and help his team out is not earning xp or isk worth of snutt but the tank would have gone 15/0 by that point. The math is painfully obvious. Nicely put |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
428
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Posted - 2013.01.09 05:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:9K330 with x2 Enhanced Damage Amplifiers and Weaponry Lvl 5. Honestly, I haven't seen many LAVs on the field that could handle more than one direct hit when I've been playing. Then you haven't seen my Methana |
Hehaw Jimbo
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
46
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Posted - 2013.01.09 07:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Overlord Zero wrote:Ludvig Enraga wrote:I don't agree when people use the 'tanks are expensive therefore their dominance is justified' argument. People who write this usually compare the price of a tank to the price of a Forge Gun + Suit. As an AV specialist, I can tell you that it takes sometimes 5-10 heavy suits equipped with forge guns dying while trying to get into a postition to shoot at the tank. If you add up the price of the suits, it's more than the price of the tank. Meanwhile that heavy suit who died and respawned 10 times just to down that tank and help his team out is not earning xp or isk worth of snutt but the tank would have gone 15/0 by that point. The math is painfully obvious. Nicely put
Titans and Supercarriers in EVE were fine cuz they were expensive, so they would be balanced by the fact that nobody could field more than a few. Right, CCP? Right guys? ....right?
In case you didn't detect the sarcasm, cost doesn't work as a balancing factor. CCP has learned this once the hard way, surely they don't plan on making the same mistake again. |
Breakin Stuff
Immobile Infantry
680
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Posted - 2013.01.09 10:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
I think CCP is planning for megacorporate war funding, honestly. ****, I could keep a platoon crapping out fits for a long time with about four hours of work. I shudder to think of how much funding TEST or the DRF will be able to chuck at groundwars. |
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Reout Karaal
Doomheim
85
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Posted - 2013.01.09 11:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
Michael Cratar wrote:When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. Militias explode when you look at them, you're doing it wrong. |
Michael Cratar
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
179
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Posted - 2013.01.09 12:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
Reout Karaal wrote:Michael Cratar wrote:When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. Militias explode when you look at them, you're doing it wrong.
Dude, This post was from a build ago. Get with the program.
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SoTa PoP
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1772
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Posted - 2013.01.09 12:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Michael Cratar wrote:Reout Karaal wrote:Michael Cratar wrote:When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. Militias explode when you look at them, you're doing it wrong. Dude, This post was from a build ago. Get with the program. LAV's have always exploded when you look at them funny. lol |
Reout Karaal
Doomheim
85
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Posted - 2013.01.09 12:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
Michael Cratar wrote:Reout Karaal wrote:Michael Cratar wrote:When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. Militias explode when you look at them, you're doing it wrong. Dude, This post was from a build ago. Get with the program. First -- sorry for not noticing the timestamp, somebody necro-bumped this thread before me though. ;-)
Second: It was like that since I remember -- militia LAVs were always a laugh, even for AV nades. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
132
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Posted - 2013.01.20 21:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I think CCP is planning for megacorporate war funding, honestly. ****, I could keep a platoon crapping out fits for a long time with about four hours of work. I shudder to think of how much funding TEST or the DRF will be able to chuck at groundwars.
I am sure that once market prices are unhinged in Dust there will be huge inflation and money from from EvE to Dust will be balanced. ie huge even corps would not be infinitely rich in comparison anymore. |
crazy space 2100046106
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
879
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Posted - 2013.01.20 22:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
yes the militia forge gun is terrible, congratz |
crazy space 2100046106
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
879
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Posted - 2013.01.20 22:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:I think CCP is planning for megacorporate war funding, honestly. ****, I could keep a platoon crapping out fits for a long time with about four hours of work. I shudder to think of how much funding TEST or the DRF will be able to chuck at groundwars. I am sure that once market prices are unhinged in Dust there will be huge inflation and money from from EvE to Dust will be balanced. ie huge even corps would not be infinitely rich in comparison anymore. remember at some point eve players will be making our gear and NPCs will be limited to blueprints. forget isk I bet we'll going to have massive freighters of dust suits moving out in 0.0 someday |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2866
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Posted - 2013.01.20 23:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
I don't think that was direct hit, I have accidentally LAVs with my forge gun before. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1058
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Posted - 2013.01.20 23:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
A good LAV can survive a hit or 2 from bad forge guns. The real problem is how long it takes for a small railgun to down a militia LAV. Haven't tried it since the wipe, but back when I had proto hybrids, a prototype small railgun still took forever to destroy a militia LAV. |
Michael Cratar
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
179
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Posted - 2013.01.20 23:56:00 -
[30] - Quote
OK! This tread is from 2 builds ago. CCP please lock this thread.
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