DUST Search - Forge guns don't seem to be worth the trouble.

Overlord Zero wrote:

Your point's, invalid. Your overall idea, valid. Picture this. 2 maxed Myrons and 2 maxed gunlogis + infantry vs a field full of forge gunners + infantry. Vehicle side wins hands down every time. Why? Well, forge guns have limited range and poor aiming, so being semi close to a target is a must. In order to get close to a tank, you have to navigate through dropship fire and infantry. Who's gonna take out the dropships so you can get at the tanks? Swarm launchers? Ha! Oh, right, you. Ok. So you try to line up a shot on a dropship, you have it in your sights, you fire right at it, and.... nothing. Why?! Oh, right, not enough range. Well, got to get closer. Oh wait, freaking tanks.

Yes, you can upgrade your forge range. Guess what? A dropship or tank turret can still hit you with OHK missiles FAR outside even max range on a forge gun. And missile splash damage? WAY better than forge gun splash.

Missiles are the real issue here sonce no one has been complaining about rail guns or blasters recently. I have a forge gun that cannot hit you to 5HK you, but YOU CAN hit ME with a missile that will OHK me.

Pilots say "My vehicle SHOULD be taking them out easy, that's what it's made to do!" Perhaps. Except your argument doesn't take into account the fact that this is not real life where things are supposed to work as they do in real life, this is a game where things must be balanced in order to succeed. Also, your argument doesn't take into account that forge guns are weapons that do not exist in reality and therefore cannot be gauged against what you know about tanks in real life.

Edit: As for the pricing issue, aka "Tanks cost way more than forge guns!". HMG's cost way more than assault rifles as well, but AR's still kill HMG users quite often. And LAV's can be pretty darn expensive too with turrets and damage mods and all, but a decent level AV 'nade takes them out just as easy for a fraction of the cost of the LAV. I have a Saga personally that runs 300,000+, but the top level AV grenade costs less than 10% of that cost

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Michael Cratar Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 179	Posted - 2012.11.16 23:06:00 - [1] - Quote When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless.
Forlorn Destrier ZionTCD Legacy Rising 914	Posted - 2012.11.16 23:14:00 - [2] - Quote Michael Cratar wrote: When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. I suspect it wasn't a direct hit, or it wasn't a militia LAV like you thought.
Belzeebub Santana SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 409	Posted - 2012.11.16 23:18:00 - [3] - Quote All of my LAV's are paper thin, AV nades, militia swarms, and yes any forge gun turns them in to a hearse.
Kaze Eyrou ROGUE SPADES 53	Posted - 2012.11.16 23:20:00 - [4] - Quote Michael Cratar wrote: When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. If it didn't take out a Militia LAV in one shot, that "Milita" LAV wasn't Militia. Plus, if you're just using the level 1 forge gun, it doesn't do much compared to a prototype.
Tyrus 4 Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 83	Posted - 2012.11.17 00:28:00 - [5] - Quote Michael Cratar wrote: When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. I make Militia LAVs disintegrate.
Tyrus 4 Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 83	Posted - 2012.11.17 00:29:00 - [6] - Quote Kaze Eyrou wrote: Michael Cratar wrote: When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. If it didn't take out a Militia LAV in one shot, that "Milita" LAV wasn't Militia. Plus, if you're just using the level 1 forge gun, it doesn't do much compared to a prototype. yup.
843 pano 843 Boot Camp 200	Posted - 2012.11.17 00:30:00 - [7] - Quote My free LAV can take one hit from a non "breach" forge and keep going... you just need to know how to set them up with free BPO's. So many people don't change their set up of their free LAV... knuckleheads. A breach FG would OHK it though... But my saga... that's a different story all together.
Overlord Zero Doomheim 75	Posted - 2012.11.17 00:57:00 - [8] - Quote Your point's, invalid. Your overall idea, valid. Picture this. 2 maxed Myrons and 2 maxed gunlogis + infantry vs a field full of forge gunners + infantry. Vehicle side wins hands down every time. Why? Well, forge guns have limited range and poor aiming, so being semi close to a target is a must. In order to get close to a tank, you have to navigate through dropship fire and infantry. Who's gonna take out the dropships so you can get at the tanks? Swarm launchers? Ha! Oh, right, you. Ok. So you try to line up a shot on a dropship, you have it in your sights, you fire right at it, and.... nothing. Why?! Oh, right, not enough range. Well, got to get closer. Oh wait, freaking tanks. Yes, you can upgrade your forge range. Guess what? A dropship or tank turret can still hit you with OHK missiles FAR outside even max range on a forge gun. And missile splash damage? WAY better than forge gun splash. Missiles are the real issue here sonce no one has been complaining about rail guns or blasters recently. I have a forge gun that cannot hit you to 5HK you, but YOU CAN hit ME with a missile that will OHK me. Pilots say "My vehicle SHOULD be taking them out easy, that's what it's made to do!" Perhaps. Except your argument doesn't take into account the fact that this is not real life where things are supposed to work as they do in real life, this is a game where things must be balanced in order to succeed. Also, your argument doesn't take into account that forge guns are weapons that do not exist in reality and therefore cannot be gauged against what you know about tanks in real life. Edit: As for the pricing issue, aka "Tanks cost way more than forge guns!". HMG's cost way more than assault rifles as well, but AR's still kill HMG users quite often. And LAV's can be pretty darn expensive too with turrets and damage mods and all, but a decent level AV 'nade takes them out just as easy for a fraction of the cost of the LAV. I have a Saga personally that runs 300,000+, but the top level AV grenade costs less than 10% of that cost
The Polish Hammer Doomheim 373	Posted - 2012.11.17 01:05:00 - [9] - Quote Come....let us show you the way of the Forge Gun
Forlorn Destrier ZionTCD Legacy Rising 914	Posted - 2012.11.17 01:12:00 - [10] - Quote 843 pano wrote: My free LAV can take one hit from a non "breach" forge and keep going... you just need to know how to set them up with free BPO's. So many people don't change their set up of their free LAV... knuckleheads. A breach FG would OHK it though... But my saga... that's a different story all together. When you fit it, it's not a true Militia in the way he means - he means the free ones everyone gets that people don't invest in - the "starter" fits.

Overlord Zero Doomheim 75	Posted - 2012.11.17 01:22:00 - [11] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: 843 pano wrote: My free LAV can take one hit from a non "breach" forge and keep going... you just need to know how to set them up with free BPO's. So many people don't change their set up of their free LAV... knuckleheads. A breach FG would OHK it though... But my saga... that's a different story all together. When you fit it, it's not a true Militia in the way he means - he means the free ones everyone gets that people don't invest in - the "starter" fits. I know what he's saying, but only an idiot complains that a forge gun is OHKing his unfitted starter fit... OOOOOOOOOOOOHH....I seee.....
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.17 05:16:00 - [12] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: 843 pano wrote: My free LAV can take one hit from a non "breach" forge and keep going... you just need to know how to set them up with free BPO's. So many people don't change their set up of their free LAV... knuckleheads. A breach FG would OHK it though... But my saga... that's a different story all together. When you fit it, it's not a true Militia in the way he means - he means the free ones everyone gets that people don't invest in - the "starter" fits. If you add AUR-purchased BPO modules to the Starter Fit, there's literally no way he can tell whether it's still the Starter Fit version or if it's something better. But if it's only using Militia BPOs, it's still a Militia LAV. And while it technically CAN take a Forge hit, it's a close call and you'll probably explode from a few SMG rounds.
slap26 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 461	Posted - 2012.11.17 07:03:00 - [13] - Quote Overlord Zero wrote: . I have a Saga personally that runs 300,000+, but the top level AV grenade costs less than 10% of that cost and your LAV costs around 13% of my sagaris...
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 163	Posted - 2012.11.17 08:31:00 - [14] - Quote 9K330 with x2 Enhanced Damage Amplifiers and Weaponry Lvl 5. Honestly, I haven't seen many LAVs on the field that could handle more than one direct hit when I've been playing.
Jonquill Caronite Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 115	Posted - 2012.11.17 08:35:00 - [15] - Quote Overlord Zero wrote: Your point's, invalid. Your overall idea, valid. Picture this. 2 maxed Myrons and 2 maxed gunlogis + infantry vs a field full of forge gunners + infantry. Vehicle side wins hands down every time. Why? Well, forge guns have limited range and poor aiming, so being semi close to a target is a must. In order to get close to a tank, you have to navigate through dropship fire and infantry. Who's gonna take out the dropships so you can get at the tanks? Swarm launchers? Ha! Oh, right, you. Ok. So you try to line up a shot on a dropship, you have it in your sights, you fire right at it, and.... nothing. Why?! Oh, right, not enough range. Well, got to get closer. Oh wait, freaking tanks. Yes, you can upgrade your forge range. Guess what? A dropship or tank turret can still hit you with OHK missiles FAR outside even max range on a forge gun. And missile splash damage? WAY better than forge gun splash. Missiles are the real issue here sonce no one has been complaining about rail guns or blasters recently. I have a forge gun that cannot hit you to 5HK you, but YOU CAN hit ME with a missile that will OHK me. Pilots say "My vehicle SHOULD be taking them out easy, that's what it's made to do!" Perhaps. Except your argument doesn't take into account the fact that this is not real life where things are supposed to work as they do in real life, this is a game where things must be balanced in order to succeed. Also, your argument doesn't take into account that forge guns are weapons that do not exist in reality and therefore cannot be gauged against what you know about tanks in real life. Edit: As for the pricing issue, aka "Tanks cost way more than forge guns!". HMG's cost way more than assault rifles as well, but AR's still kill HMG users quite often. And LAV's can be pretty darn expensive too with turrets and damage mods and all, but a decent level AV 'nade takes them out just as easy for a fraction of the cost of the LAV. I have a Saga personally that runs 300,000+, but the top level AV grenade costs less than 10% of that cost Honestly... This game will probably work perfectly in spite of all that's being said, it will balance EVE by being a HUGE initial ISK sink... So at first everyone and their mother will spend all they can to be as OP as possible, and because Dust stuff is 'relatively' cheap compared to EVE stuff, it won't even scratch EVE Corp budgets... But the key here is that its a battle of attrition... The amount of ISK being generated by throwing Prototypes out willy-nilly and blowing them up par for par, will never ever be greater then what is lost. Why is this relevant? Simple for the first 3 months of this game after launch, it will be a huge ISK sink, and balance inflation, and remove some of the extremely top heavy difference by reducing the wallets of all the rich people who can afford to fund this ground wars. But as players on both sides get smarter they'll realize that winning battles isn't important if what you LOSE in the battle doesn't equal even close to what you gain. Winning battles in a 'cost effective' manner will become more important then winning battles period... This is where tanks come in and rather or not they are balance... Right now they actually are balanced in spite of the cost. Because you can't afford to fund both sides of a tank blitz for eternity, they are still enough of a sink that if you try to do that it will sink the EVE economy just as fast as it will sink the Dust economy... Sure it will solve the inflation problem... But the new problem will be no ISK at all... In any case the hypothetical was all tank crews with infantry support, versus all Forge crews with infantry support. Which will win? Well obviously the tank, I agree with the poster on this point... However, this is where its important to pay attention, even though the tanks will win, even given the fact that Heavies with weapons and gear are expensive, they don't even come close to the cost of Tanks with support and hear... This is important because in a war with two sides doing this, one side may lose all the battles, but if they can slow down the others advance and attrify their wallet, then the forge side will win hands down... And then pushing the enemy back is as easy as can be... Fact of the matter is: TANKS DONT NEED ANOTHER NERF. But neither do they need a buff... You just need to recognize that there is more to this game then K/D ratio, or W/L ratio, or even individual cost... All are important, and if you aren't viewing balance from the perspective of ALL THREE, then you are ignorant of the way this game needs to be balanced...
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 132	Posted - 2012.11.18 06:10:00 - [16] - Quote I don't agree when people use the 'tanks are expensive therefore their dominance is justified' argument. People who write this usually compare the price of a tank to the price of a Forge Gun + Suit. As an AV specialist, I can tell you that it takes sometimes 5-10 heavy suits equipped with forge guns dying while trying to get into a postition to shoot at the tank. If you add up the price of the suits, it's more than the price of the tank. Meanwhile that heavy suit who died and respawned 10 times just to down that tank and help his team out is not earning xp or isk worth of snutt but the tank would have gone 15/0 by that point. The math is painfully obvious.
Overlord Zero Doomheim 75	Posted - 2013.01.09 05:42:00 - [17] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: I don't agree when people use the 'tanks are expensive therefore their dominance is justified' argument. People who write this usually compare the price of a tank to the price of a Forge Gun + Suit. As an AV specialist, I can tell you that it takes sometimes 5-10 heavy suits equipped with forge guns dying while trying to get into a postition to shoot at the tank. If you add up the price of the suits, it's more than the price of the tank. Meanwhile that heavy suit who died and respawned 10 times just to down that tank and help his team out is not earning xp or isk worth of snutt but the tank would have gone 15/0 by that point. The math is painfully obvious. Nicely put
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 428	Posted - 2013.01.09 05:47:00 - [18] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: 9K330 with x2 Enhanced Damage Amplifiers and Weaponry Lvl 5. Honestly, I haven't seen many LAVs on the field that could handle more than one direct hit when I've been playing. Then you haven't seen my Methana
Hehaw Jimbo Bragian Order Amarr Empire 46	Posted - 2013.01.09 07:00:00 - [19] - Quote Overlord Zero wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: I don't agree when people use the 'tanks are expensive therefore their dominance is justified' argument. People who write this usually compare the price of a tank to the price of a Forge Gun + Suit. As an AV specialist, I can tell you that it takes sometimes 5-10 heavy suits equipped with forge guns dying while trying to get into a postition to shoot at the tank. If you add up the price of the suits, it's more than the price of the tank. Meanwhile that heavy suit who died and respawned 10 times just to down that tank and help his team out is not earning xp or isk worth of snutt but the tank would have gone 15/0 by that point. The math is painfully obvious. Nicely put Titans and Supercarriers in EVE were fine cuz they were expensive, so they would be balanced by the fact that nobody could field more than a few. Right, CCP? Right guys? ....right? In case you didn't detect the sarcasm, cost doesn't work as a balancing factor. CCP has learned this once the hard way, surely they don't plan on making the same mistake again.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.09 10:36:00 - [20] - Quote I think CCP is planning for megacorporate war funding, honestly. ****, I could keep a platoon crapping out fits for a long time with about four hours of work. I shudder to think of how much funding TEST or the DRF will be able to chuck at groundwars.

Reout Karaal Doomheim 85	Posted - 2013.01.09 11:10:00 - [21] - Quote Michael Cratar wrote: When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. Militias explode when you look at them, you're doing it wrong.
Michael Cratar Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 179	Posted - 2013.01.09 12:06:00 - [22] - Quote Reout Karaal wrote: Michael Cratar wrote: When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. Militias explode when you look at them, you're doing it wrong. Dude, This post was from a build ago. Get with the program.
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1772	Posted - 2013.01.09 12:07:00 - [23] - Quote Michael Cratar wrote: Reout Karaal wrote: Michael Cratar wrote: When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. Militias explode when you look at them, you're doing it wrong. Dude, This post was from a build ago. Get with the program. LAV's have always exploded when you look at them funny. lol
Reout Karaal Doomheim 85	Posted - 2013.01.09 12:11:00 - [24] - Quote Michael Cratar wrote: Reout Karaal wrote: Michael Cratar wrote: When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. Militias explode when you look at them, you're doing it wrong. Dude, This post was from a build ago. Get with the program. First -- sorry for not noticing the timestamp, somebody necro-bumped this thread before me though. ;-) Second: It was like that since I remember -- militia LAVs were always a laugh, even for AV nades.
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 132	Posted - 2013.01.20 21:17:00 - [25] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I think CCP is planning for megacorporate war funding, honestly. ****, I could keep a platoon crapping out fits for a long time with about four hours of work. I shudder to think of how much funding TEST or the DRF will be able to chuck at groundwars. I am sure that once market prices are unhinged in Dust there will be huge inflation and money from from EvE to Dust will be balanced. ie huge even corps would not be infinitely rich in comparison anymore.
crazy space 2100046106 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2013.01.20 22:48:00 - [26] - Quote yes the militia forge gun is terrible, congratz
crazy space 2100046106 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2013.01.20 22:53:00 - [27] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I think CCP is planning for megacorporate war funding, honestly. ****, I could keep a platoon crapping out fits for a long time with about four hours of work. I shudder to think of how much funding TEST or the DRF will be able to chuck at groundwars. I am sure that once market prices are unhinged in Dust there will be huge inflation and money from from EvE to Dust will be balanced. ie huge even corps would not be infinitely rich in comparison anymore. remember at some point eve players will be making our gear and NPCs will be limited to blueprints. forget isk I bet we'll going to have massive freighters of dust suits moving out in 0.0 someday
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2013.01.20 23:20:00 - [28] - Quote I don't think that was direct hit, I have accidentally LAVs with my forge gun before.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2013.01.20 23:56:00 - [29] - Quote A good LAV can survive a hit or 2 from bad forge guns. The real problem is how long it takes for a small railgun to down a militia LAV. Haven't tried it since the wipe, but back when I had proto hybrids, a prototype small railgun still took forever to destroy a militia LAV.
Michael Cratar Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 179	Posted - 2013.01.20 23:56:00 - [30] - Quote OK! This tread is from 2 builds ago. CCP please lock this thread.

Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2013.01.21 01:35:00 - [31] - Quote Wait until you start seeing those real gunnlogis and sagaris tanks come out. Or, jets and annoying droships
iceyburnz Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 282	Posted - 2013.01.21 01:48:00 - [32] - Quote never mind, i chewed on a necro thread.
James-5955 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2013.01.21 04:14:00 - [33] - Quote Forge Gun Proficiency + damage mods + prototype forge gun .. I would be loving it up, if only forge guns were my type. edit: ah, necro thread. Damn.
TiMeSpLiT--TeR Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 326	Posted - 2013.01.21 04:24:00 - [34] - Quote Spec your Forge Gun. Unless, the LAV you're targeting uses Shield or Armor hardener.
Superluminal Replicant Isuuaya Tactical Caldari State 35	Posted - 2013.01.21 07:45:00 - [35] - Quote Ive turned controller sensitivity down to zero, it helps with forge gun aiming and makes it less twitchy. I should be on level 4 forge tonight, can get my new assault forge!
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2013.01.21 08:23:00 - [36] - Quote Michael Cratar wrote: When it takes more than 1 direct hit to take out a militia lav you know it is kinds worthless. Must be trollin, cause every LAV and infantry I run across with the forge gun gets the FORGE-RO-DAHHHHHH
KalOfTheRathi CowTek 168	Posted - 2013.01.21 08:31:00 - [37] - Quote Forge Guns just take practice is all. If you are off a bit, no happy for you. If you release at the wrong time, same results. Wait until they lose control, slow down or stop and try to recover. Gone! If they are headed directly at or away from you. Easy pickings. And as previously posted, not all LAVs are the same. I typically boost a Baloch with shields and resistive plating. A militia will only take it out if it is already damaged. The big boys, though they don't typically notice. Poof, gone. I was disappointed with them initially but now all my characters have Forge Gun fit ready to go. I just three hit a HAV this morning with my Militia Forge. If I was better at it I believe it was doable in two.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2013.01.21 08:53:00 - [38] - Quote Overlord Zero wrote: Nicely put Thanks for bumping a thread months old to share with everyone this remarkable insight, you tit.


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