:facepalm: Its not that snipers are OP as far as damage goes, I like the amount of damage they do after they nerfed it this build. Its that they are too easy to use. Right now if hit detection was spot on it would simply be point and click. For some players sitting in the mountains is more appeasing then running around on the ground. I don't want to nerf the damage I just want to add more difficulty to sniping.

I've been here since E3 and in that build there were hardly any snipers at all, mainly because no one bothered to learn to compensate for the laggy servers. In precursor I blame Manus Peak and the lack of sway in between shots for the increase in snipers. In this build the slower movement speed and the tighter hit detection promoted it even more.

Sniping needs difficulty, it shouldn't be the easy way to get profit. If you can sit on top of a mountain all game with no worries you should at least have to experience a challenge in doing so. All I'm asking for is for CCP to return the E3 sniping mechanics and add bullet drop and travel time.

:facepalm: Its not that snipers are OP as far as damage goes, I like the amount of damage they do after they nerfed it this build. Its that they are too easy to use. Right now if hit detection was spot on it would simply be point and click. For some players sitting in the mountains is more appeasing then running around on the ground. I don't want to nerf the damage I just want to add more difficulty to sniping.

I've been here since E3 and in that build there were hardly any snipers at all, mainly because no one bothered to learn to compensate for the laggy servers. In precursor I blame Manus Peak and the lack of sway in between shots for the increase in snipers. In this build the slower movement speed and the tighter hit detection promoted it even more.

Sniping needs difficulty, it shouldn't be the easy way to get profit. If you can sit on top of a mountain all game with no worries you should at least have to experience a challenge in doing so. All I'm asking for is for CCP to return the E3 sniping mechanics and add bullet drop and travel time.

And a double :facepalm: to you, good sir. I'll work under the assumption that you read my entire post, though from your response that fact remains in question.

As I stated, it's not about what you get, but what you lose. You can make sniping as difficult as your kitten heart desires, but it won't change the fact that sniping, by its very nature, is more conducive to a higher KDR than all the other infantry ranks.

And if we assume that an assault with a mid-level suit coupled with a mid-level gun will die 4-8 times a match, a sniper who gets 1 kill by sheer luck (due to the difficult nature imposed by what we'll call the "Sleepy Zan sniper mechanics") will still beat an average AR wielding assault in profitability.

EDIT: I should also note the short-sightedness of your post. Once corps have the ability to take on hefty contracts, this will all be a moot point, as those who win will be bathing in ISK. The profit margin of a lone wolf sniper, though seemingly high now, will be pennies once the game launches.

And I don't believe that the increase in the number of snipers is simply because of loosing very little in the process. Like I said their weren't many snipers in the E3 build even though you could get a free dropship, fly up to a high spot, and camp all game long with little risk. The only real difference between then and now is the skill it took to snipe. Then you had to lead targets and had sufficient scope sway.

And also snipers are still useful in corp battles, and you make more than pennies

And I don't believe that the increase in the number of snipers is simply because of loosing very little in the process. Like I said their weren't many snipers in the E3 build even though you could get a free dropship, fly up to a high spot, and camp all game long with little risk. The only real difference between then and now is the skill it took to snipe. Then you had to lead targets and had sufficient scope sway.

And also snipers are still useful in corp battles, and you make more than pennies

agree snipers do help and its not cheap one bit i dont snipe unless bored (i dont get bored to often) lol

Curiously, no one has addressed the main reason why there are sometimes 17 snipers out of 32 players. Not even a peep out of CCP, who have an economics expert on staff. Very strange, but suffice to say, it's all economics. Dollars and... well, ISK.

First of all, people complain that snipers sit back and don't contribute to winning matches in skirmish mode. That assertion is 100% true for most snipers. But a bigger question lies underneath that fact. Why does winning matter? Has anyone stopped to think about that? Winning simply means nothing as CCP has currently constructed the beta matches. You don't get more SP, you don't get more ISK, and you don't get any other bonuses. So why should anyone care about winning, as things currently stand?

Because of this, you can either be competitive while trying to win and spend 30K or 40K per suit on an A-level Assault with a Gek AR and lose it (for the average player) 4-8 times a match (costing you anywhere from 120K to 300K), or you can get a cheap scout or assault suit and snipe for a few thousand ISK.

Now, as a sniper, you won't get nearly the WP and ISK that the guys on the ground will get. But it's not what you get that matters, it's what you lose. And snipers won't lose that much, making their profit margins much much higher.

Which takes me back to my first point. Winning has to matter. The abundance of snipers has nothing to do with them being OP. It has to do with the fact that there is no incentive to win a match, but there is great incentive to not losing gear, since you need all the ISK you can get.

How many snipers were on the field for the tester's tourney? Anyone venture a guess? I wasn't there, but I'm willing to bet there were zero. Maybe one here or there. And that's because winning matters in the tourny. You're playing for something, so the best strategy is to not have half of your team sniping.

In skirmish mode now, winning does not matter. All of this sniper talk has failed to address the real issue. If sniping was so overpowered, then people would be using them in the tournament. But I bet people were using dropships...

It's not snipers themselves that people hate, its those arseholes that go 20/1 by camping in the redline with a sniper costing me 100k ISK while they lose 20k ISK for a cheap sniper fit. It's like you say people do it because it's cheap, but I still hate those guys that never put themselves in any danger and are useless to the team.

Haha. Pennies compared to the payouts of nullsec contracts.

Also, I was in the E3 build as well, and everyone took a dropship up onto the towers to camp. The reason they didn't use sniper rifles was because using the turrets on the ships was much more effective.

But I'm getting off topic, and Tinodi is absolutely right. The current matches don't accurately reflect how things will play out with null contracts. That's what people fail to realize, and that's something CCP should look at implementing now to test. No reward means having to increase your own profit margin in other ways.

Edit: And the other reason for fewer snipers in the E3 build was because of RE's. People went 30-3 with RE's. Why snipe when you can just toss an instant "I win" mine.

Everyone is making pennies now compared to null sec, and null sec isn't what this game is going to be all about. Of course things are going to change in null sec and corp battles are proof enough of that, but CCP wants to make it easy for players to jump into a pub match and have a good time and with a dozen snipers on the field isn't really fun.

Yes, which is why if players got 4X as much ISK for winning, you would see a sharp drop in sniper population.

Really? Because snipers, like you said, have little to worry about when it comes isk. Win or loose your going to make a profit and loose very little so I don't see how 4x the isk to the winner will change anything besides making people hate having snipers on there team even more.

:facepalm: Its not that snipers are OP as far as damage goes, I like the amount of damage they do after they nerfed it this build. Its that they are too easy to use. Right now if hit detection was spot on it would simply be point and click. For some players sitting in the mountains is more appeasing then running around on the ground. I don't want to nerf the damage I just want to add more difficulty to sniping.

I've been here since E3 and in that build there were hardly any snipers at all, mainly because no one bothered to learn to compensate for the laggy servers. In precursor I blame Manus Peak and the lack of sway in between shots for the increase in snipers. In this build the slower movement speed and the tighter hit detection promoted it even more.

Sniping needs difficulty, it shouldn't be the easy way to get profit. If you can sit on top of a mountain all game with no worries you should at least have to experience a challenge in doing so. All I'm asking for is for CCP to return the E3 sniping mechanics and add bullet drop and travel time.

Ha. OK, so make it 20X. Make it 10X. I don't care, I was just throwing out a number, but make it significant. And then, yes, really, it would change quite a bit.

I don't think an increase in gains will make much of a difference for the lone wolf snipers. You made it pretty clear that the reason they snipe isn't because they are looking to gain alot but instead it's because they have nothing to loose. Unfortunately though to big, penalty for a loss in a pub match can have some problems.

max bullet drop of sniper rifle would be 58cm at 862m range, at 300m its only 7cm. Travel time would be good, and not returning to exact same spot after firing.

The Minmatar sniper should fire a normal projectile, at the lower speed it should have bullet drop, travel time, and wind affects. I suggest they be in their own category called anti-material rifle or payload rifle.

Changing isk payout could make it very hard for causal players, that probably lose more, to keep fits stocked. Maybe have winners get 4x more salvage? Once we can sell/trade it, the salvage will be valuable.

Honestly I have to agree with SingleTap on this one, adding a bigger reward for being on the winning team would cause ALOT(not all) of players to rethink they're strategy. Yes there will always be those players that like to play lazy and sit in one spot all day, and they won't care about a big payout. Most players will however though, everyone wants to level up and add abilities and such, well training books cost a good amount so setting the pub rewards at a low rate and adding a multiplier for the winning team would incourage MANY to seek other methods so they don't have to wait for 200 matches to learn that new skill.

I don't think an increase in gains will make much of a difference for the lone wolf snipers. You made it pretty clear that the reason they snipe isn't because they are looking to gain alot but instead it's because they have nothing to loose. Unfortunately though to big, penalty for a loss in a pub match can have some problems.

If there are stakes, people will play to win. As there are currently none, people camp. Few play to win now. There is no reason to try to win. Why should anyone try to beat the other team? The object of the current game is to score WP and lose as little gear as possible.

Just wanted to say that I do agree with you about having a bigger isk reward for the winners, but I think you underestimate how much people don't care as much about a bigger reward as much as they would a penalty. I still would say that the best solution is to make sniping more difficult to lower the count of the snipers.