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EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 18:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Short answer: armor tanks got no love and explosive damage hurts armor more and hybrid turrets suck
Long answer: OP because they have infinite range and splash damage and OHK kill my scout suit wah
I dont buy it, splash damage is created from the missiles impact and if it didnt have an AOE effect it would basically be a long bullet
The whole point of a missile is to blow **** up and create a big ******* crater, tbh RPGs work in the same way except the missile is more advanced
Its not like its hard to kill the tank in general or deny the tank certain parts of the map using just 1 forge gun, a forge gun i havnt seen an OP thread about the forge gun tbh even tho it works better than the large railgun turret since it can do everything the large railgun can do but better, it can kill infantry easily and take out installations and tanks really well with less SP
Reminds me of the breach AR which got nerfed, it was popular but OP? lolno
Lets just compare the missiles - 5m splash radius and about half the direct damage is the value for splash damage for both large and small mainly give or take a few, now railguns used to have 5m splash radius but its now 2.5m for large and 0.7 for small i think and the value maybe like 10-20% of the direct hit but the direct hit is super powerful and blaster is you gotta hit em and you get no splash
Small missiles could take a hit, but large missiles is a no or then its not on par with other large turrets, small blasters and railguns do have ther uses but they are specific uses and in a battle anything can pop up so if i have a railgun for dropships but no dropship turns up im ****** for fighting AI where as missiles is in the middle
Missiles are popular mainly because the railgun got nerfed to ****, its tracking is crap and turns way too slowly and you can barely hit the guy in front of you unless hes in a tank or installation where as missiles were unaffected mostly and they also get bonuses to the Caldari HAV which happens to be shield and has its active hardners where as the armor doesnt
Now if the armor had its active hardners and also the swarms didnt do more DPS to armor after its recent buff it wouldnt be so bad, you would see hybrid armor tanks and railguns would be an option as would blasters due to the bonuses it gets for hybrid weapons
Plus add in tanks got a nerf in general and are now weaker and so are its resistance mods that it can get killed by a basic AV guy mainly being a forge gunner or just lots of ppl with swarms which happen to bend round the mountain you are using for cover ppl need to use missiles because they need to be able to kill that ****** camping behind the hill and popping out now n again, railgun wouldnt hit him since you heed a direct hit and blasters do not have the range so the only option left is missiles and splash to at least make him move if not cause a bit of damage
Most ppl are assault and scout and if a missile hits you its like getting hit with an RPG so either way you should die - no complaints, splash damage normally takes a couple of hits sometimes 3/4
As a heavy tho you do take more damage in general but chances are you have a forge gun which can also deal out heavy damage in its own right and snipe across the map with it if you choose
Missiles on a dropship tho is a different problem, mainly because the dropship slowboats around the map and the swarms never hit it in general so it can rarely be stopped or even damaged half the time, inb4skilledpilots lolno
If the swarms did work half the time and caused damage then the dropship would have to be more careful, hell lets reverse it if swarms never hit tanks ppl would be crying OP so quickly but if they kept hitting dropships and going around buildings pilots would be pissed
Before missiles can be classed as OP several things need to happen 1st to really see if it is all because of the missiles
1. Armor tanks need ther active armor resistance mods
2. Swarms need to stop locking on through mountains, swarm missiles need to stop bending around cover to hit tanks in cover, swarms need a proper flight path to hit the dropship where it is and not where it used to be, swarms extra buff on armor needs to be removed since the forge gun didnt get this extra buff for shields
3. Turret turning speeds to be the same as missiles, railguns shouldnt be so slow its unfair
If the tanks can be balanced so you dont get an advanatage for using one type then we will see both tanks and the same with weapons we will see more railguns hopefully and it will also help if one type of AV didnt hurt one tank more than the other so we would see if missiles are still prefered on all tanks and how they would be used in battles and the same with AV because just one type of tank being used means that more ppl will skill up for 1 type of AV if it does hurt that tank more ie shield tanks and forge guns
TLDR: Not my problem
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Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
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Posted - 2012.11.05 19:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
i stopped using scout suits. they get one hit killed from a sneeze. they are slow and don't offer anything worthwhile for the lack of protection.
as for the ulimited range that needs to change. either give everyone unlimited range or give things respectable range. having one weapon that is able to fire from one red zone into the other red zone is a bit much.
and for the swarms locking and bending around mountains to hit tanks i have never seen, ever. the only time missiles decide to be dumb is when i lock onto installations then even if i have a clear LOS my missiles will bank into a hill to the side of me for no reason. i end up having to move to another location because the lock is funky and i have to end up staring at a mountain in order for the missiles to hit the turret or whatever.
i disagree with everything else because of reasons |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
742
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 19:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
tl;wrl Missiles are overpowered imo because they are an all range weapon. You can snipe with missiles from one end of the map to the other causing mass damage. No weapon should ohk anything, which is why I've decided to use a blaster turret ^_^ (4hk instead :D) |
Sentient Archon
Red Star.
690
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 19:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:tl;wrl Missiles are overpowered imo because they are an all range weapon. You can snipe with missiles from one end of the map to the other causing mass damage. No weapon should ohk anything, which is why I've decided to use a blaster turret ^_^ (4hk instead :D)
+1 to this LOL! I sniped from one end of the 4 point map to other end of the 4 point and destroyed a Sica. LMFAO. Coast to Coast brotha! |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
811
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Posted - 2012.11.05 19:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
The fact that no one uses anything other than missile turrets unless they are intentionally handicapping themselves is a good indicator that they are OP. Spending 5 minutes USING a missile turret pretty much seals the deal. If you've spent ANY amount of time behind a MT you know they are ridiculously easy to use and insanely powerful. I don't see how it's even up for debate and any argument I see otherwise just looks like entitled nonsense to me. |
Sentient Archon
Red Star.
690
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 19:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:The fact that no one uses anything other than missile turrets unless they are intentionally handicapping themselves is a good indicator that they are OP. Spending 5 minutes USING a missile turret pretty much seals the deal. If you've spent ANY amount of time behind a MT you know they are ridiculously easy to use and insanely powerful. I don't see how it's even up for debate and any argument I see otherwise just looks like entitled nonsense to me.
I specked into rails and blasters like a fool. Got pwned by missile turrets and CCP didnt fix it them. SO I decided to speck into missile turrents . Since I am a good sniper and can snipe people across the map I decided it was the best thing to do. So I am gonna sit back and snipe people across the map with my missile turrent till enough people cry/complain/whine about it . |
Paran Tadec
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
902
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 19:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
I've posted about forgeguns being too good at everything. Had a guy earlier take out a sica, from across the map, and then kill me after I bailed on the dying tank. All In about 5-6 seconds.
FG's need a range and splash reduction, it really should be a close up ambush weapon against tanks, not a long range tank sniper that can't be countered, that also excels at WTFowning infantry across the map. |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 19:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sentient Archon wrote:I specked into rails and blasters like a fool. Got pwned by missile turrets and CCP didnt fix it them. SO I decided to speck into missile turrents . Since I am a good sniper and can snipe people across the map I decided it was the best thing to do. So I am gonna sit back and snipe people across the map with my missile turrent till enough people cry/complain/whine about it . it's good that people do this. it gives CCP an idea of what is broken in the game.
of course CCP doesn't know how to balance anything. they will most likely nerf the spash damage and the range to make them completely useless like the rail gun. |
Paran Tadec
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
902
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 19:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Necrodermis wrote:Sentient Archon wrote:I specked into rails and blasters like a fool. Got pwned by missile turrets and CCP didnt fix it them. SO I decided to speck into missile turrents . Since I am a good sniper and can snipe people across the map I decided it was the best thing to do. So I am gonna sit back and snipe people across the map with my missile turrent till enough people cry/complain/whine about it . it's good that people do this. it gives CCP an idea of what is broken in the game. of course CCP doesn't know how to balance anything. they will most likely nerf the spash damage and the range to make them completely useless like the rail gun.
Probably. Before the railgun nerf I asked them to half the splash to 2.5, and it got knocked down to 1.5, and turn rate was atrocious, especially if you were using a mouse. |
Wakko03
Better Hide R Die
134
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 19:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
You are incorrect about some things regarding forge guns.
The awesome ones, are ones that render the FAT Suited HeAVY stationary.....while still making the aiming go to nothing when taking splash damage from a missle weapon. Then you got the ones that don't hold the charge but pack a punch, followed by the ones that hold a charge but do a weak amount of damage. On top of this you got the fact that the fat suited heavy using a forge gun is an easy target for every other player to kill, mixed in with that you have the varying time delays for firing each of those forge guns. Tanks can still out run the range rather quickly, not to mention that only certain areas on the tank are even vulnerable.
As for sniping across the map, that is a flat out exaggeration. You would need to have HEAVY Weapon Sharpshooter up to level 5 and possibly need to have Heavy Weapon Sharpshooter Profiecency up to Level 2-3 (which is about 1 mil skill points probably closer to 1.2 mil sp). And if you want ammo for the Forge you have to hope that somebody has a nano-hive as HEAVY Weapon Capacity is only for the HMG or do you really think 5% of 16 is some overly large number, because you will run out fast due to the nature of the forge gun, it takes 3 shots to range your target and see if you are even close enough to hit it. By the time you get a good hit everyone knows where you are more than they do the silent running LAV's. Seem unusual that the sound of a forge gun charging up is one of the loudest noises next to the sound of the dropship in the air.
But back to sniping long range with a forge gun, I will admit that I got a few long range shots in against a stationary target down-range a good bit (about a 1/3rd of the map away from me) but that has happened about 5 times in about a month versus the hundreds if not thousands of deaths due to not even living long enough to fire at the tank, getting cut down by anything and everything on the way to that battle, heck I know for a fact that certain players go around hunting the poor schmucks standing up to a tank or dropship, they never fight a vehicle themselves.
And finally in all my time in the beta, since june 6th, I have seen 2 matches that actually had equal vehicles square off against one another. That goes to matchmaking.... which is non existent.... probably would have been a good match if 4 corps heavy in vehicles weren't put on the same team vs a team of randoms. There is no way to fight a 3 tanks and 2 dropship on the enemies team when all your team has is maybe an LAV. Now with the over nerf of the AV grenades tanks can back away from your thrown grenade and not worry about a tank trap, and that was due to LAV drivers trying to use them as bowling balls. |
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Phantom Eren
Doomheim
33
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 20:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sephirian Fair wrote:
XT-1 Accelerated Missile Launcher: Direct Damage: 455.0 HP Splash Damage: 260.0 HP Blast Radius: 5 meters
Using two 20% damage modules gives around 35% damage increase, and Turret skills gives another 20% damage increase. their is 55% more damage on turrets. LetGÇÖs run the numbers again.
Damage Modifiers included: Direct Damage: 705.25 HP Splash Damage: 403.0 HP
this was written by one of the dropship pilots a Zion TCD in our private forums. he has a point missile turrets are really really OP (it's not a direct quote to prevent data leaks) |
Bhor Derri
Legion of Eden
95
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 20:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Phantom Eren wrote:Sephirian Fair wrote:
XT-1 Accelerated Missile Launcher: Direct Damage: 455.0 HP Splash Damage: 260.0 HP Blast Radius: 5 meters
Using two 20% damage modules gives around 35% damage increase, and Turret skills gives another 20% damage increase. their is 55% more damage on turrets. LetGÇÖs run the numbers again.
Damage Modifiers included: Direct Damage: 705.25 HP Splash Damage: 403.0 HP
this was written by one of the dropship pilots a Zion TCD in our private forums. he has a point missile turrets are really really OP (it's not a direct quote to prevent data leaks)
This is a beta what are you talking about sigh another key wasted to a kid. We need proper info this is what a beta is for |
Phantom Eren
Doomheim
33
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 20:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bhor Derri wrote:Phantom Eren wrote:Sephirian Fair wrote:
XT-1 Accelerated Missile Launcher: Direct Damage: 455.0 HP Splash Damage: 260.0 HP Blast Radius: 5 meters
Using two 20% damage modules gives around 35% damage increase, and Turret skills gives another 20% damage increase. their is 55% more damage on turrets. LetGÇÖs run the numbers again.
Damage Modifiers included: Direct Damage: 705.25 HP Splash Damage: 403.0 HP
this was written by one of the dropship pilots a Zion TCD in our private forums. he has a point missile turrets are really really OP (it's not a direct quote to prevent data leaks) This is a beta what are you talking about sigh another key wasted to a kid. We need proper info this is what a beta is for all of that information is accurate. what I left out was pertinent to the organizational structure of Zion not the math. you can't lie about math it's common knowledge. anyone with half a brain could come up with these numbers. if I needed to lie about the math I wouldn't have quoted it. |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 22:16:00 -
[14] - Quote
Missiles OP due to suit hp & damage increases due to skills and mods. Next question :P |
Obama DAT
Doomheim
389
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 22:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
While I agree the splash from missles is a problem. I find the bigger problem is the unlimited ammo and no cool down for firing them. Every other weapon in the game has a finite supply of ammo while vehicle ammo is infinite with no cool down. As for the forge gun comments the same logic can be applied. The forge gun has a charging mechanism and a finite amount of ammo. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 22:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:The fact that no one uses anything other than missile turrets unless they are intentionally handicapping themselves is a good indicator that they are OP. Spending 5 minutes USING a missile turret pretty much seals the deal. If you've spent ANY amount of time behind a MT you know they are ridiculously easy to use and insanely powerful. I don't see how it's even up for debate and any argument I see otherwise just looks like entitled nonsense to me.
OP uses missiles obv doesnt want them nerfed Every other turret has a drawback and can overheat, rails even have a charge up time as well as overheat Missiles need a "reload" function imho. Its just toooo easy to spam them
Fire a payload....reload....fire again reload function should be about a 2sec reload before being able to fire again
Paran Tadec wrote:I've posted about forgeguns being too good at everything. Had a guy earlier take out a sica, from across the map, and then kill me after I bailed on the dying tank. All In about 5-6 seconds.
FG's need a range and splash reduction, it really should be a close up ambush weapon against tanks, not a long range tank sniper that can't be countered, that also excels at WTFowning infantry across the map.
Heavies tbqh dont usually get close to a tank, they are very slow and and LAV used as transport wont get him closer, he will get blown up long before he reaches within range
the range on FGs im fine with tbh lower it and it gets useless vs Derpships from the thread on the forum FGs have a 300-400m range thats not bad |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 22:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Obama DAT wrote:While I agree the splash from missles is a problem. I find the bigger problem is the unlimited ammo and no cool down for firing them. Every other weapon in the game has a finite supply of ammo while vehicle ammo is infinite with no cool down. As for the forge gun comments the same logic can be applied. The forge gun has a charging mechanism and a finite amount of ammo.
Vehicle ammo HAS cooldown...........except Missiles Blasters if held too long will overheat, rails hav a charge up time and can overheat
|
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 22:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Yep- missiles are currently the only non-hybrid weapon, which makes them preferred.
Armor tanks may still make a comeback this build- if (mostly) railguns and (sortof) blasters make a comeback. Why? they have 100% efficiency against both armor and shields, which means it'll be harder for them to take down armor tanks, since armor tanks have a higher total "health" instead of higher damage resistance. |
Logi Bro
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
836
|
Posted - 2012.11.05 23:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
Quote:TLDR: Not my problem
Maybe this will be seen as a troll response, but I'm being completely serious when I ask you: then why the hell did you write all this then? |
Second Cerberus
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 01:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
Phantom Eren wrote:Sephirian Fair wrote:
XT-1 Accelerated Missile Launcher: Direct Damage: 455.0 HP Splash Damage: 260.0 HP Blast Radius: 5 meters
Using two 20% damage modules gives around 35% damage increase, and Turret skills gives another 20% damage increase. their is 55% more damage on turrets. LetGÇÖs run the numbers again.
Damage Modifiers included: Direct Damage: 705.25 HP Splash Damage: 403.0 HP
this was written by one of the dropship pilots a Zion TCD in our private forums. he has a point missile turrets are really really OP (it's not a direct quote to prevent data leaks)
Pretty sure turret proficiency is 3% per level for a total of 15% dmg increase, not 20%.
Also, I think you are quoting the information for the XT-1, not the XT-1 Accelerated model. The accelerated models have a .08 instead of 1.6 cycle but lower damage. The accelerated XT has the same stats for the lower power AT-1 which I believe is 420 direct and 240 splash. So to clarify, the numbers I see are 630 direct with Turret Prof and Dmg Mods. Still substantial, but not exactly 705. Please feel free to correct me if the stats in the store show differently, but missile turrets are OP enough they don't need exaggerated. |
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Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 02:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
Phantom Eren wrote:Sephirian Fair wrote:
XT-1 Accelerated Missile Launcher: Direct Damage: 455.0 HP Splash Damage: 260.0 HP Blast Radius: 5 meters
Using two 20% damage modules gives around 35% damage increase, and Turret skills gives another 20% damage increase. their is 55% more damage on turrets. LetGÇÖs run the numbers again.
Damage Modifiers included: Direct Damage: 705.25 HP Splash Damage: 403.0 HP
this was written by one of the dropship pilots a Zion TCD in our private forums. he has a point missile turrets are really really OP (it's not a direct quote to prevent data leaks) I completely agree splash damage should be toned down, but let's face it- if you get all the skills for that, plus get around how much a pain in the ass it is to fit that stuff- you deserve to kill ass. |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 02:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
this thread |
VK deathslaer
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
149
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 06:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
I can only imagine what people are gonna say about the release of autocannons, pulse and beam turrets, arty, stasis webs, jamming ect... |
Michael Cratar
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
179
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 06:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
Paran Tadec wrote:I've posted about forgeguns being too good at everything. Had a guy earlier take out a sica, from across the map, and then kill me after I bailed on the dying tank. All In about 5-6 seconds.
FG's need a range and splash reduction, it really should be a close up ambush weapon against tanks, not a long range tank sniper that can't be countered, that also excels at WTFowning infantry across the map.
If he killed you with a forge gun he just got lucky. Forge guns don't need another nerf. Matter of fact they never needed one in the first place. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 07:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
"Dont nerf my OP **** thread begging thread"
Missiles not OP, seriously ? Yes they should have splash damage, but as they have that, they shouldnt make that much damage, at that such fast rate, and without any drawback of any kind. Pretending otherwise is either being blind, or wanting to keep playing EZ mode, lolololokdr |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 13:25:00 -
[26] - Quote
I see not many actually read the thread to begin with
If you dont see all the different factors to begin with and the outcome which is missiles are always being used then lol at you tbh
Its a fact armor is much weaker than before and the armor tanks are next to useless and shields are favoured and missiles do more damage against armor and the turret itself can move quicker and has more range than the blasters and the forge gun is alot more popular now because of all the shield tanks and it can hit them from across the map because they need to be able to do so because missiles are long range bombardment so everyone goes shield tank and missiles because that is the only option that is left- Prob a few more factors but if you ignore them then you are an idiot tbh
Those who want ammo for the turrets - As in a reload time for the small and large thats fine
Those who want ammo to be restocked - lolno because i dont want johnny random to waste my ammo while he fires it everywhere, plus it also means i want to get blue dots out of my tank like an eject button and also have a squad lock so only those in my squad can get in it, as it is all turrets have unlimited ammo and until i can control who gets in my tank then no tbh
Forge gun weak? lolno they can do everything better than a large railgun can
Missiles stats guy - Have you worked out what a railgun stats would be like since you can work them out also? problem is community screamed nerf and they are useless since i havnt seen them on anything but a milita tank and they turn so slowly by the time you have turned the turrret you can turn the tank faster
@Tony - What? i know the suits got all made equal and that higher suits just have more slots and CPU/PG
Overall at this rate missiles will get nerfed, community will make sure of that and then hopefully we get the autocannons/lazer and artillery turrets and then the community will scream nerf on the artillary most likely because it maybe a bit like missiles long range bombardment large splash damage radius, autocannos wont get touched because they are like blasters short range, lazer maybe like railgun slow and long range but meh possibly
Your right i dont want missiles to get nerfed until the basics are fixed, missiles are 'OP' because of the current conditions and only a few seem to be able to connect the dots but the community will prob win missiles get nerfed and become useless and tanks overall become useless and we have an infantry only game as its currently turning out to be |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
811
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 21:49:00 -
[27] - Quote
Honestly, it may make me an ass, but I have a hard time taking someone seriously when they haven't yet mastered the fine art of punctuation. |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
634
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 22:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Second Cerberus wrote:Phantom Eren wrote:Sephirian Fair wrote:
XT-1 Accelerated Missile Launcher: Direct Damage: 455.0 HP Splash Damage: 260.0 HP Blast Radius: 5 meters
Using two 20% damage modules gives around 35% damage increase, and Turret skills gives another 20% damage increase. their is 55% more damage on turrets. LetGÇÖs run the numbers again.
Damage Modifiers included: Direct Damage: 705.25 HP Splash Damage: 403.0 HP
this was written by one of the dropship pilots a Zion TCD in our private forums. he has a point missile turrets are really really OP (it's not a direct quote to prevent data leaks) Pretty sure turret proficiency is 3% per level for a total of 15% dmg increase, not 20%. Also, I think you are quoting the information for the XT-1, not the XT-1 Accelerated model. The accelerated models have a .08 instead of 1.6 cycle but lower damage. The accelerated XT has the same stats for the lower power AT-1 which I believe is 420 direct and 240 splash. So to clarify, the numbers I see are 630 direct with Turret Prof and Dmg Mods. Still substantial, but not exactly 705. Please feel free to correct me if the stats in the store show differently, but missile turrets are OP enough they don't need exaggerated.
Turret Op - 2% Small Missile Op - 3% Small Missile Prof - 2%
Accelerated have the same stats as standard variant, you're thinking of cycled.
To the above, missiles aren't just OP because of "the current conditions." They're OP because of their range, direct damage, and splash damage essentially outdoing every single other turret except for a blaster up close on a large, hard to miss target. Not to mention they also have damage modules that are bigger than the other turrets' modules because of... some reason. |
MAST3R SHAKE
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
4
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 23:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
Missiles are OP because of the damage mods. The missile turrets can use a 20% damage while the hybrid turrets can only use a 10% damage mod |
Sephirian Fair
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
48
|
Posted - 2012.11.07 00:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
Second Cerberus wrote:Phantom Eren wrote:Sephirian Fair wrote:
XT-1 Accelerated Missile Launcher: Direct Damage: 455.0 HP Splash Damage: 260.0 HP Blast Radius: 5 meters
Using two 20% damage modules gives around 35% damage increase, and Turret skills gives another 20% damage increase. their is 55% more damage on turrets. LetGÇÖs run the numbers again.
Damage Modifiers included: Direct Damage: 705.25 HP Splash Damage: 403.0 HP
this was written by one of the dropship pilots a Zion TCD in our private forums. he has a point missile turrets are really really OP (it's not a direct quote to prevent data leaks) Pretty sure turret proficiency is 3% per level for a total of 15% dmg increase, not 20%. Also, I think you are quoting the information for the XT-1, not the XT-1 Accelerated model. The accelerated models have a .08 instead of 1.6 cycle but lower damage. The accelerated XT has the same stats for the lower power AT-1 which I believe is 420 direct and 240 splash. So to clarify, the numbers I see are 630 direct with Turret Prof and Dmg Mods. Still substantial, but not exactly 705. Please feel free to correct me if the stats in the store show differently, but missile turrets are OP enough they don't need exaggerated.
There's no exaggeration. That information comes from a discussion on the Zion TCD forums and is accurate pertaining to the skills of my designated Gunner. He has Turret Op Level 4 which gives 8% increase and Missile Turret Op Level 4 which gives 12%, and I run two 20% Damage Modifiers on my rig. Those numbers are near exact, with a +or- of around 1-2 percent based on the severity of stacking penalties. I believe I may even be slightly under the exact percentage, meaning the turret has a little more power than I stated.
The accelerated Missile Turrets fire a faster moving missile, but has the same damage output as the standard Missile Launcher. You are thinking of the Cycled one, which possesses lesser damage along with having a much smaller blast radius, but fire at a faster rate.
As you can see by those numbers, my gunner will one-shot anything short of a Heavy with just his splash damage. With a Direct hit, he'll instant kill a Militia Heavy suit and leave higher grade suits in critical.
As for you, English Snake, which Railguns would you like me to run through? Small ones? Well, I don't have to even run numbers to let you know that Small Missile Turrets do more direct damage than Small Railguns do. I've not run any numbers on Large Railguns. |
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EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.11.07 12:54:00 -
[31] - Quote
Last i checked i remember small railguns having the top dps output on its base stats
But dont bother ive lost hope with this community everything gonna get nerfed and no one can see past the short term, long term this game could be ****** |
Sephirian Fair
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
48
|
Posted - 2012.11.07 14:31:00 -
[32] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:Last i checked i remember small railguns having the top dps output on its base stats
But dont bother ive lost hope with this community everything gonna get nerfed and no one can see past the short term, long term this game could be ******
I believe you might be correct on DPS potential on Railguns, as I had forgotten what the fire rate for Small Railguns are. If I'm not mistaken, they are .8 seconds compared to the 1.6 seconds of Missile Turrets. Only issue is that small Rails can only fire... I think it is 5 or 6 shots before a very long cooldown.
Try not to think of the turret changes as nerfs, though. It does suck to see everything nerfed, but try to work towards more of a readjustment to the purpose of vehicles. If turrets are adjusted to more reasonable levels, it makes the overall state of balance easier to control. It is very difficult to balance anything that has the ability to one-shot infantry (Or even Installations in the case of Missile Turrets.)
If turret damages are brought into line, we could see much tankier vehicles come about. In every build that I've been apart of since the E3 build, any issue with Vehicles being called "overpowered" had little to do with the actual vehicle, but entirely to do with the Turrets. In Precursor, the issue with tanks during the first half of that build wasn't because they were incredibly difficult to destroy, but because they could also instant kill everything. The same thing with Dropships this build. If the turrets weren't instant killing infantry all over the map, no one would complain about how difficult they are to shoot down.
The vehicle mechanics currently are too similar to Battlefield's. Battlefield's vehicles are these paper thin, die in 2 or 3 hits, but every one of them have something that instant kill infantry or 2 shot another vehicle. The issue with Dust right now, is that the vehicles are slightly stronger than paper thin, and still kill infantry instantly. To have balance with Vehicles, you cannot have a medium between difficult to destroy and easy to destroy with. CCP needs to pick an extreme and stick with it.
The current extreme they are leaning to is like BF's, but the SP and ISK systems they have in place make that extreme very unappealing to anyone who runs vehicles. They have weak vehicles with very strong turrets. Here's an excerpt from the discussion on the TCD forums concerning my thoughts on the matter:
"The other extreme is something I feel that fits the Dust/Eve feeling that it already has. And that is, make all Vehicles EXTREMELY difficult to destroy, but gut the turrets. And I donGÇÖt mean by a little, I mean all damages cut by more than half. There should be no reason any turret outside of a very powerful Railgun should be able to one-shot even a basic Assault with a direct hit. Tanks would then become GÇ£tanks,GÇ¥ laying down suppressing fire while soaking up a lot of damage. Dropships would be able to ferry units to various points once the knock-back physics are reeled into place and wonGÇÖt have to worry about leaving their base because *name removed* is on the other side. YouGÇÖll no longer have Dropships sitting in the air able to one-shot infantry. If they try, their effectiveness will be greatly diminished from what it was before. YouGÇÖll no longer have tanks taking up GÇ£Artillery PositionsGÇ¥ on the side of a mountain in the back of the map, raining hell on the combatants below. TheyGÇÖll be a nuisance, but no more across map instant kills.
Personally, thatGÇÖs how I would want Vehicles to be in Dust. If they are paper thin, they are destroyed instantly with little coordination. But if they are difficult to destroy, but arenGÇÖt the instant killing threat they are currently, it leaves a lot more tactical decisions that need to be made to combat them. Laying traps, making ambush positions, strong use of Webifiers when they are released, perhaps use of anti-vehicle mines and the like. And having to juggle how many AV-AI units you have on the field. Is the tank or dropship that big of a threat? Does it need to be destroyed or just distracted and kept away from combat? If they are difficult to destroy, but have lowish to moderate damage, strategy and tactics take a higher precedence. There is no counter play to being instant killed as soon as you spawn."
With Dust's current ISK and SP systems, I believe this to be more appealing to vehicle pilots, because their investment is safer, while still able to contribute to the battle in meaningful ways. There is a lot more counter-play involved in a situation like that, where a weapon's strengths and weakness play a part in combat. The stark difference between armor and shield would shrink because of their increased tankiness, and their counters would play a more important part of actually possessing the needed counter, rather than a jack-of-all-trades is currently able to get by with no problem, taking out everything. |
Ty 'SweetCheeks' Borg
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
192
|
Posted - 2012.11.07 16:12:00 -
[33] - Quote
90% of the people commenting here aren't even bothering to read the thread and it shows you to be fools tbh.
He's not crying about anything, merely stating facts and telling people why. Yet your all that obsessed or butt hurt about tanks/missiles that you don't even bother to read it.
The fact is, as I've stated that many times now it's beyond boring, AV/Turrets/Vehicles are totally off balance. They were last build and the build before and CCP keeps altering the things that work to compound the issue.
Missile turrets have always been the king of everything. How many LAV's, Dropships or Tanks use missiles as their secondary and why is that?. It's blatantly because they work well at everything and blasters/rails are useless. If they sort this out then we woudn't see missile spam from anything that is a vehicle.
Next we have the fact CCP have been tweaking the large turrets due to "Whines" last build. The problem wasn't the railgun last build or the tanks HP. It was the fact the tanks had a 50% damage mod built in and everyone ran missiles and the fact we'd see 3-4 of them on one team per match. The large blaster was also complained about and that got some love and it now working imo.
Now bare in mind what they altered last build, because due to the cries of "nerf" the new standard turret for tanks has become the Large missile. If the large rail was actually any use you'd see the better tankers using that for sure. Couple this with the fact CCP decided to add in damage mods with better stats and lower requirements than dropsuit mods, you can see the issue right?.
Next CCP decided it'd be a really good idea to make the turret skills buff damage, which tbh it is, but they did it without even looking at or trying to fix the already broken turrets.
Now we have not only tanks that are running about spamming missiles, but ridiculous LAV's and Dropships. The latter of which can't really be countered without a lot of effort. |
The dark cloud
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
1060
|
Posted - 2012.11.07 16:39:00 -
[34] - Quote
complainers achieved that only 1 out off 3 turrets are actual effective, complainers achieved that tank resistance has beeing reduced massive so you can take them on by yourself with a swarm launcher,
So tell me the only remaining thing that gives them firepower against infantry should be nerfed down to beeing useless? Are you guys out off your mind? Tanks with a decent fit can easy go over 1 million ISK (gunnlogi) and you want to deal with them easy with a fit that might cost you 10.000 ISK or even free with a starter fit? The mentality off this forum is entertaining.
Sure nerf missiles you will get a nice payback when artillery is getting spammed from inside off the redline when it gets released. |
Alldin Kan
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
169
|
Posted - 2012.11.07 19:13:00 -
[35] - Quote
MSISSILES?!?!?! FORGET THAT, RAILGUNS ARE TOO OP AND NEEDS NERFING. EVERYTIME I SEE THAT OP TURRET SHOOTING AT ME I LOOSE MY TANKS IN SECONDS. CCP WY HAVE YOU NOT FIXED THIS, I CAN'T DODGE IT AND THE DAMAGE IS TOO HIGH. I TRIED USING DROPSHIPS BUT NOOOOOOOO, THE GUY TREATED THAT LIKE AN I WIN BUTTON AND KILLED ME MID-AIR AS I EXIT THE BURNING DROPSHIP. CCP, FIX THIS NAO!1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111!!!!!111
...
Ok so on a serious note, effectiveness of missiles vs armor needs to be removed as well as reducing the dmg bonus of mods by half. Not sure why the change wasn't implemented yet even after the GM referees witnessed it's strength in the tourny. As for dropships, there should reduced damage output just like the logistics LAV, after all it's a "dropship" not a gunship. |
Sentient Archon
Red Star.
690
|
Posted - 2012.11.07 19:42:00 -
[36] - Quote
Alldin Kan wrote:there should reduced damage output just like the logistics LAV, after all it's a "dropship" not a gunship.
I know a quite a few people who wont be happy about this post LOL. |
Alldin Kan
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
169
|
Posted - 2012.11.07 21:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sentient Archon wrote:Alldin Kan wrote:there should reduced damage output just like the logistics LAV, after all it's a "dropship" not a gunship. I know a quite a few people who wont be happy about this post LOL.
Dropship prices get lower and then it's ok. |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 14:03:00 -
[38] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:complainers achieved that only 1 out off 3 turrets are actual effective, complainers achieved that tank resistance has beeing reduced massive so you can take them on by yourself with a swarm launcher,
So tell me the only remaining thing that gives them firepower against infantry should be nerfed down to beeing useless? Are you guys out off your mind? Tanks with a decent fit can easy go over 1 million ISK (gunnlogi) and you want to deal with them easy with a fit that might cost you 10.000 ISK or even free with a starter fit? The mentality off this forum is entertaining.
Sure nerf missiles you will get a nice payback when artillery is getting spammed from inside off the redline when it gets released.
Yea but cloud when that happens the majority of this idiot community will once again cry nerf against artillery, they will cry nerf against any turrets if its kills infantry until they are all useless and tanks as a whole become pointless to use
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Kein-Engel
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
45
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 16:01:00 -
[39] - Quote
Second Cerberus wrote:Phantom Eren wrote:Sephirian Fair wrote:
XT-1 Accelerated Missile Launcher: Direct Damage: 455.0 HP Splash Damage: 260.0 HP Blast Radius: 5 meters
Using two 20% damage modules gives around 35% damage increase, and Turret skills gives another 20% damage increase. their is 55% more damage on turrets. LetGÇÖs run the numbers again.
Damage Modifiers included: Direct Damage: 705.25 HP Splash Damage: 403.0 HP
this was written by one of the dropship pilots a Zion TCD in our private forums. he has a point missile turrets are really really OP (it's not a direct quote to prevent data leaks) Pretty sure turret proficiency is 3% per level for a total of 15% dmg increase, not 20%. Also, I think you are quoting the information for the XT-1, not the XT-1 Accelerated model. The accelerated models have a .08 instead of 1.6 cycle but lower damage. The accelerated XT has the same stats for the lower power AT-1 which I believe is 420 direct and 240 splash. So to clarify, the numbers I see are 630 direct with Turret Prof and Dmg Mods. Still substantial, but not exactly 705. Please feel free to correct me if the stats in the store show differently, but missile turrets are OP enough they don't need exaggerated.
The Cycled missiles have a fire rate of 0.8. I think the damage on the accelerated I'd the same as the regular missiles, they just fly through the air faster. |
ugg reset
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
234
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 16:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
SOONGäó?
[FEEDBACK/ISSUE] Dropships and Missiles imbalance Update: A number of tweaks and improvements to missiles have been made and are planned for deployment in the next beta update/hotfixes. Some of the changes include improvements to missile tracking and speed stats, more tuning for the small and large missile turrets. Countermeasures are also planned for future updates. |
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Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
634
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 19:01:00 -
[41] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:Last i checked i remember small railguns having the top dps output on its base stats
Numbers since last build:
Top small rail dps = 275.55
Proto small missile dps = 284.37 (cycled = 426.5)
That's direct damage, splash damage isn't even close. |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 19:04:00 -
[42] - Quote
Last build?
We aint on last build we on this build |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
634
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 19:08:00 -
[43] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:Last build?
We aint on last build we on this build
Numbers have been the same on those since last build. |
Reimus Klinsman
BetaMax.
320
|
Posted - 2012.11.08 19:45:00 -
[44] - Quote
Missiles are OP _AND_ rails/blasters are severly Underpowered. Theres no reason to use the other two weapon systemms. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 02:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
I know how we can balance missiles! give them swarm tracking! Oh wait, that might be an overnerf.
Reimus Klinsman wrote:Missiles are OP _AND_ rails/blasters are severly Underpowered. Theres no reason to use the other two weapon systemms. I think railguns are exactly where they need to be. Large blasters are OK, but small blasters need a major range/accuracy boost |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.11.09 10:17:00 -
[46] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:I know how we can balance missiles! give them swarm tracking! Oh wait, that might be an overnerf. Reimus Klinsman wrote:Missiles are OP _AND_ rails/blasters are severly Underpowered. Theres no reason to use the other two weapon systemms. I think railguns are exactly where they need to be. Large blasters are OK, but small blasters need a major range/accuracy boost
Railguns turn too slow |
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