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Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
1155
   |
Posted - 2012.11.02 13:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Wanted to start a thread about this a long time ago. So here goes.
At the moment, squad leader bonus point from giving order is very limited. Due to the anti-Ob spam fix that :
1) Raised the required WP amount
2) Reduced the multiplier for objectives completed following a Squad leader order.
But even before that, orders multipliers were already wrong for various reasons :
1) Defending was way more interesting than attacking
2) Defending orders werent equal. Oddly, defending a vehicle or soldier earned more than defending an objective or structure.
Imo, if there has to be a difference, then attacking orders should earn more points to both SL and soldiers than any defending orders. Personnaly, we only use "defend X soldier" and leave it be. there is no incentive in pointing a specific objective as it :
1) Earns less bonus WP
2) Requires more frequent order swapping.
So in the end, what should be done ?
Imo, multipliers should be different depending on the importance of the target.
Objectives > Installations > vehicles\infantry
x2.5 || x2.0 || x1.5
Having a difference between attacking and defending may not be that usefull then. And this way, there's a real incentive to focus fights on main objectives as they will be actual WP fest with SL orders on it.
In conclusion, WP bonuses through orders need a good buff so they become mandatory. If it requires to raise WP requirement for OBs, so be it. But those orders are real teamplay mechanisms a,d should be polished as much as possible.
Also, i always liked the MAG model where any actions done near the SL earned bonus exp. This pattern could also be usefull to DUST as it would allow a squad to have two objectives set with bonus WP. For example, defending a specific point. And following the SL attacking another one. This could be very usefull to enhance teamplay and incentize people in playing as a real close group instead of wandering around alone on the battflefield:
=> Could be a nice 2.0 / 1.5 multiplier as well.
Thoughts ? |
Reimus Klinsman
BetaMax.
320
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 14:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
I like it.
Also make giving squad orders not suck so much.. Hold R2 down, struggle to click R3 down and hold. Move the already down R3 to the order you want on the wheel that sucks so bad. Let go of R2 and R3 hoping you didn't wiggle the R stick... Now point at the thing you want to set the order to and fire.. It move a Pixel?! Miss -> Invalid target. FU Dust. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 13:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
any more thoughts people ? |
Kaze Eyrou
ROGUE SPADES
53
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 14:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'd like to add this: I've played Battlefield 3 and I noticed that giving orders was really simple. All you had to do is aim your cursor at the objective and click Back (for Xbox) or Select (for PS3).
My notion is this: could we have it where if we aim our cursor over an objective and press Select, that would be the order and would automatically do Capture or Defend depending on the status of the objective? I still like the top down interface but sometimes I feel it's a bit cumbersome and slow, having to switch to an overhead view, then select what you want to do, and switch back. Would it be too difficult to make it where tapping Select would do simple squad orders while holding down Select would bring up the communication window? |
Illuminaughty-696
Omega Risk Control Services
203
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 14:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Right now there is no reason to give any order other than placing a defense order on one of your squad or an objective you are defending. Attack and capture orders are pointless with the recent changes. Attack was always worthless except as a way to make a target, but yeah. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 14:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Illuminaughty-696 wrote:Right now there is no reason to give any order other than placing a defense order on one of your squad or an objective you are defending. Attack and capture orders are pointless with the recent changes. Attack was always worthless except as a way to make a target, but yeah.
Agreed. thus my suggestion.
To the other dude, select is used at the moment to manage audio channels. But i still agree with the fact that simplifying access to quick order menu would be a good idea. |
Illuminaughty-696
Omega Risk Control Services
203
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 15:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kaze Eyrou wrote:I'd like to add this: I've played Battlefield 3 and I noticed that giving orders was really simple. All you had to do is aim your cursor at the objective and click Back (for Xbox) or Select (for PS3).
My notion is this: could we have it where if we aim our cursor over an objective and press Select, that would be the order and would automatically do Capture or Defend depending on the status of the objective? I still like the top down interface but sometimes I feel it's a bit cumbersome and slow, having to switch to an overhead view, then select what you want to do, and switch back. Would it be too difficult to make it where tapping Select would do simple squad orders while holding down Select would bring up the communication window?
Oh, hold down R2, then press R3 to bring up squad orders. You can them aim at an objective or person and give that order to it. A little more complicated than I think it needs to be, but it is still quicker than going to the map and giving orders there. |
Kaze Eyrou
ROGUE SPADES
53
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 15:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Illuminaughty-696 wrote:Oh, hold down R2, then press R3 to bring up squad orders. You can them aim at an objective or person and give that order to it. A little more complicated than I think it needs to be, but it is still quicker than going to the map and giving orders there.
Actually, I like that a lot more. Kinda goes with the feel of the R2 toggle too. +1 |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 16:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
digging this up. Anyone has thoughts regarding the WP reward from SL orders or its mechanics ? |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 16:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
I agree objectives should be top of the list, and I can see logic behind the installations being more valuable than people too - but ONLY for a capture. Defending a non-objective installation should be the LOWEST multiplier. Destroying/hacking an installation should give you a decent boost though, since it's a once-off action. |
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Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 17:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
yeah, maybe have a slight difference between bonus of main and secondary objectives. Pointing a dude would be "secondary".
What about the squad leader being sort of a permanent objective ? MAG-style ? |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 18:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:yeah, maybe have a slight difference between bonus of main and secondary objectives. Pointing a dude would be "secondary".
What about the squad leader being sort of a permanent objective ? MAG-style ?
Personally not a fan of that idea.
Squad Leader should be able to send his team in somewhere while he runs off to play "distraction" to make the job easier. Making him an objective will give randoms too much incentive to spoil the plan. Also, it will overly reward players just for being the squad leader. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 18:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
I could see a squad leader "passive" defend order, but I would make it a lessor order so some priory has to be established. This would be useful however for squads who run with a sniper on overwatch, an AV guy split off to counter HAV/LAV/Dropship or a "stealth" hacker/flanker. In all of those cases having someone not with the squad is actually more effective team play and if the squad leader were a passive bonus then there isn't a forced choice regarding which part of the squad gets the order bonus.
Variable bonus amounts seems good, would likely require some iteration to find proper balance for the amounts but it seems like a good idea. Another aspect that could be looked into is variable order ranges. Right now all orders have the same effective range and you have to be inside that range to get credit, this makes attack orders often 100% useless (outside of highlighting the target), for example taking a high priority target like a HAV, Dropship or enemy sniper will net those who follow the order zero bonus points in the majority of cases.
Hacking an objective from the enemy is another example where the restricted field size requires you to hack and then defend from the often tactically unsound position of right on the objective, making the "capture" order suboptimal past initial deployment.
I fully agree that Objectives should be awarding the highest bonus, and installations having a higher bonus would give incentive to do something other than "defend order on squadmate --> fire and forget". On a related note having deployable targets such as hives, uplinks et al be target enabled on the squad orders menu would be good as it would allow a more dynamic battlefield wherein temporary strong points could be set up and defended based on tactical considerations rather than having to find something you're able to tag or losing out on the squad orders (you can always just order defend on one squad mate but that's not very dynamic nor is it very feasible if you're being pressed hard in a hotzone and burning a few clones to hold the line).
On a closing note, even with increased squad order awards Precision Strike spam could be avoided simply by making two changes to the PS system regarding WP awards.
1) Change PS kill awards to Assists for all members of the squad (including leader). They are earned by the squad after all so why not share the awards?
2) Do not let WP earned through the use of PS count towards earning another PS.
With the system changed thus earning PS should be approximately the same as it is now even with increased awards from some squad orders, and thus allow us to refurbish the order system while still avoiding PS spam.
0.02 ISK
Cross |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 20:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Unless that "passive" defend order on the squad leader applies to squadmates and NOT the leader himself, I don't think it should be there. Although if there was a passive order like that, it would help people to know who their squad leader is - the guy with the "look at me" icon on his head. If you don't see one of those, guess what? It's you.
I also agree that the current defend range is too small on objectives and facilities - although not so much on mobile targets. Marking a vehicle should reward anyone who attacks that vehicle, and anyone who attacks enemies who are CLOSELY supporting the vehicle. Marking a teammate to defend means you're making them visible, and directing your squad to stick with that player. In that case, the current range is pretty reasonable, imo. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 21:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Unless that "passive" defend order on the squad leader applies to squadmates and NOT the leader himself, I don't think it should be there. Although if there was a passive order like that, it would help people to know who their squad leader is - the guy with the "look at me" icon on his head. If you don't see one of those, guess what? It's you.
I also agree that the current defend range is too small on objectives and facilities - although not so much on mobile targets. Marking a vehicle should reward anyone who attacks that vehicle, and anyone who attacks enemies who are CLOSELY supporting the vehicle. Marking a teammate to defend means you're making them visible, and directing your squad to stick with that player. In that case, the current range is pretty reasonable, imo.
agreed.
regarding commissions that sl gets. i always thought it wasnt efficient. i d ratherchave him get as much bonus for actions than a commission. would also make passive sl order much more balanced. just playing as group would imply reward. |
Galasdir
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 22:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aggreed! Really interesting suggestion! |
Corvus Ravensong
Skyel Industries
Subspace Exploration Agency
179
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 00:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Not sure about the rest, but IMO, the squad leader interface could be made more intuative - or mebbe put it in the manual or isntructions somewhere in game, so we don't have to come to the forums to find out how to use them at all. |
Ziero01
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
11
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 01:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:What about the squad leader being sort of a permanent objective ? MAG-style ?
Just to clear things up, in MAG the SL was never an objective. They could set Fragos, just like this game, on vehicles or Structures, but you didn't get bonus points for just being NEAR a SL when you did an action. You would get passive skill bonuses like increased reload speed or reduced gas damage, but the only way you could get bonus points is by doing something near a frago'd Objective.
As for the Frago system in this game, I agree that it needs to be explained IN GAME better. Hell, I think it should be something you have to work your way up to honestly. You want to be a SL? You need to first A) have XX amount of time in game, B) Request the position and hell C) Activate and level up a skill for it.
With the point bonuses though, I agree Objectives should give the most while targeting personnel should give the least. Though to me, Structures are more important to defend/destroy/control then players or vehicles, especially once they're player called and placed in more strategic positions. To be honest I wasn't even aware you gained different bonuses based on what was frago'd, as far as I knew it was a static bonus per action regardless if it was a player or objective frago'd |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 05:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Just for clarity. To the best of my knowledge there were differing award amounts in prior builds but in CODEX all awards (and ranges from the tagged target) are currently uniform.
Also, the SL doesn't get a bonus for actions taken within the 'zone of effect' of an order but rather gains commissions when someone in his squad gains a bonus (if this is not "as intended" functionality then I have more than a months worth of bug reports to make :P ).
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 18:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bears further discussion :) |
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