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I hope Controller and Keyboard/mouse can be separated

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dudeytron Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 69	Posted - 2012.10.22 20:57:00 - [1] - Quote I appreciate we're still in beta, but I'd like to make a suggestion. That suggestion being CCP pit people together based on control being used. Me being a DS3 controller user, I feel I'm limited severely in aiming speed and accuracy. Mouse/keyboard users I suspect have greatly improved aiming abilities. I'm not complaining about keyboard/mouse users, I simply hope the final game considers the differences and puts people into matches against people using the same controller.
Governor Odius Doomheim 177	Posted - 2012.10.22 20:59:00 - [2] - Quote There's no reason to match by input type when you can match by skill which, by the way, the game (in theory) does. You don't see much proper matchmaking right now because of the very limited player base.
Super Cargo Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 428	Posted - 2012.10.22 21:03:00 - [3] - Quote Governor Odius wrote: There's no reason to match by input type when you can match by skill which, by the way, the game (in theory) does. You don't see much proper matchmaking right now because of the very limited player base. QFT
Rorek IronBlood ZionTCD Legacy Rising 746	Posted - 2012.10.22 21:07:00 - [4] - Quote Super Cargo wrote: Governor Odius wrote: There's no reason to match by input type when you can match by skill which, by the way, the game (in theory) does. You don't see much proper matchmaking right now because of the very limited player base. QFT Well not yet of course. CCP is still gathering data which is why they have been gathering data, and forcing us to use the match making systems instead of us being allowed to use the servers and selecting on our own. Still for the most part, yes.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.10.22 21:09:00 - [5] - Quote The worst keyboard/mouse player will not be better than the best DS3 player. Separating it by controller type wouldn't by the best way to do it. As Odius pointed out, simply taking the end results and intelligently matchmaking by player ability, period, is the way to go about it.
dudeytron Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 69	Posted - 2012.10.22 21:18:00 - [6] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: The worst keyboard/mouse player will not be better than the best DS3 player. Separating it by controller type wouldn't by the best way to do it. As Odius pointed out, simply taking the end results and intelligently matchmaking by player ability, period, is the way to go about it. I disagree. The controller has a huge impact and very effectively creates an uneven playing field. I'd love to see the stats...when and if they are broken down by controller type...I'd wager -ú100 the top 100 players will all be using keyboard/mouse.
Lonewolf514 79	Posted - 2012.10.22 21:26:00 - [7] - Quote dudeytron wrote: I appreciate we're still in beta, but I'd like to make a suggestion. That suggestion being CCP pit people together based on control being used. Me being a DS3 controller user, I feel I'm limited severely in aiming speed and accuracy. Mouse/keyboard users I suspect have greatly improved aiming abilities. I'm not complaining about keyboard/mouse users, I simply hope the final game considers the differences and puts people into matches against people using the same controller. ramp up the auto aim. or add recoil to mouse users? i dunno. there are people out there paid to solve this ****. anyway now is not the time to be thinking about it is it.
Lonewolf514 79	Posted - 2012.10.22 21:37:00 - [8] - Quote dudeytron wrote: Fivetimes Infinity wrote: The worst keyboard/mouse player will not be better than the best DS3 player. Separating it by controller type wouldn't by the best way to do it. As Odius pointed out, simply taking the end results and intelligently matchmaking by player ability, period, is the way to go about it. I disagree. The controller has a huge impact and very effectively creates an uneven playing field. I'd love to see the stats...when and if they are broken down by controller type...I'd wager -ú100 the top 100 players will all be using keyboard/mouse. how do you define top players. i played tribes 2 for years. 40-50 hours a week sometimes. ***** brilliant game it is too and i still didnt perfect it. and noone bettered it. never once did i give a ** about k/d but tribes didnt really have any penalties for death.
Re-FLeX Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 152	Posted - 2012.10.22 21:38:00 - [9] - Quote dudeytron wrote: Fivetimes Infinity wrote: The worst keyboard/mouse player will not be better than the best DS3 player. Separating it by controller type wouldn't by the best way to do it. As Odius pointed out, simply taking the end results and intelligently matchmaking by player ability, period, is the way to go about it. I disagree. The controller has a huge impact and very effectively creates an uneven playing field. I'd love to see the stats...when and if they are broken down by controller type...I'd wager -ú100 the top 100 players will all be using keyboard/mouse. What lol no, its all about personall preference.... i know people that are better then me that use a ds3
Beld Errmon Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 479	Posted - 2012.10.22 21:52:00 - [10] - Quote what a load of crap, most of the players that can consistently beat me are controller users, i'd wager that your crap and in order to keep your ego from imploding you've gotta grasp at any excuse you can find for why you aren't the best player in the game.

dudeytron Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 69	Posted - 2012.10.22 21:55:00 - [11] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: what a load of crap, most of the players that can consistently beat me are controller users, i'd wager that your crap and in order to keep your ego from imploding you've gotta grasp at any excuse you can find for why you aren't the best player in the game. You spelt you're wrong.
Lonewolf514 79	Posted - 2012.10.22 21:56:00 - [12] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: what a load of crap, most of the players that can consistently beat me are controller users, i'd wager that your crap and in order to keep your ego from imploding you've gotta grasp at any excuse you can find for why you aren't the best player in the game. they use movment.
Lonewolf514 79	Posted - 2012.10.22 21:58:00 - [13] - Quote dudeytron wrote: Beld Errmon wrote: what a load of crap, most of the players that can consistently beat me are controller users, i'd wager that your crap and in order to keep your ego from imploding you've gotta grasp at any excuse you can find for why you aren't the best player in the game. You spelt you're wrong. **** you, you ginger step child :P beard too :)
Beld Errmon Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 479	Posted - 2012.10.22 22:03:00 - [14] - Quote dudeytron wrote: You spelt you're wrong. Don't care.
Lonewolf514 79	Posted - 2012.10.22 22:06:00 - [15] - Quote his idea sucks. he should be in the mouse keyboard area.
Tinodi Doomheim 39	Posted - 2012.10.22 22:15:00 - [16] - Quote There's no question mouse and keyboard wins over controller every time, all things being equal. A killer player with a pad just doesn't have the same tactile ability. This isn't really debatable and no point in arguing it here... we've seen it time and time again in other shooters. Try hooking up a controller to your PC and play a few rounds of TF2... most pubbers will slaughter you, even average ones. You just can't track as reliably, or turn as easily. Can a good pad player hold his own? Sure, but it's in spite of the controller and overcoming a handicap. That's why 99% of PC players don't use a controller. If it was as good or better, don't you think you'd see more use? That said, they can very much make up for this just by ramping up auto-aim on controllers a bit. As it is, I can barely tell the difference, to the point of suspecting it isn't actually active yet. Good aim assist is essential to most shooters (they've all got it, even if you don't realize it) on console, especially when mixing with mouse and keyboard players. There'll still be some disparity, but it should be pretty negligible with decent aim assist. Also might help if you could hold a button or double tap a direction to turn faster on the controller. Non-issue for mouse users, but on a pad the trade-off of turning speed for steadiness is much more apparent than on a mouse. Even still, as long as the aim assist is working properly, this is less of an issue. Just would be nice. EDIT: Also, puzzlingly, aim assist is off by default. That shouldn't be.
D'Finn Rhedlyne Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 266	Posted - 2012.10.22 22:17:00 - [17] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: what a load of crap, most of the players that can consistently beat me are controller users. What a load of crap, most of the players that beat me are KB/M users.... this argument will always be the eternal question... better aim over better movement...
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.10.22 22:21:00 - [18] - Quote Tinodi wrote: There's no question mouse and keyboard wins over controller every time, all things being equal. A killer player with a pad just doesn't have the same tactile ability. This isn't really debatable and no point in arguing it here... we've seen it time and time again in other shooters. Try hooking up a controller to your PC and play a few rounds of TF2... most pubbers will slaughter you, even average ones. You just can't track as reliably, or turn as easily. Can a good pad player hold his own? Sure, but it's in spite of the controller and overcoming a handicap. That said, they can very much make up for this just by ramping up auto-aim on controllers a bit. As it is, I can barely tell the difference, to the point of suspecting it isn't actually active yet. Good aim assist is essential to most shooters (they've all got it, even if you don't realize it) on console, especially when mixing with mouse and keyboard players. There'll still be some disparity, but it should be pretty negligible with decent aim assist. Also might help if you could hold a button or double tap a direction to turn faster on the controller. Non-issue for mouse users, but on a pad the trade-off of turning speed for steadiness is much more apparent than on a mouse. Even still, as long as the aim assist is working properly, this is less of an issue. Just would be nice. So basically "give controller users aimbots, and all will be well". I just summed up your entire TL:DR. How about, like others have said, take the end result of player skill, all things considered, and match people based on that. I'll have you know that I've seen many gamepad users that can get the headshot every time in games like CoD and BF, it all comes down to skill. D'Finn Rhedlyne wrote: Beld Errmon wrote: what a load of crap, most of the players that can consistently beat me are controller users. What a load of crap, most of the players that beat me are KB/M users.... this argument will always be the eternal question... better aim over better movement... Or you can just get the Razer Nostromo and have both! ;)
V Shadow DUST University Ivy League 34	Posted - 2012.10.22 22:24:00 - [19] - Quote when I used KB/M I found that turning was at the same rate as on the DS3, so unless that has changed, that should not be too much of a factor.
Cpl Quartz 127	Posted - 2012.10.22 22:24:00 - [20] - Quote D'Finn Rhedlyne wrote: Beld Errmon wrote: what a load of crap, most of the players that can consistently beat me are controller users. What a load of crap, most of the players that beat me are KB/M users.... this argument will always be the eternal question... better aim over better movement... most of the players that beat me are controller users. lol.

Tinodi Doomheim 39	Posted - 2012.10.22 22:27:00 - [21] - Quote Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: So basically "give controller users aimbots, and all will be well". I just summed up your entire TL:DR. sigh. No. You just don't know how game development works. As I said, ALL console shooters have aim assist. All of them. This is even since the last generation of consoles. The best ones you don't even realize they're helping you they're so smooth. It isn't an aimbot even remotely... it still requires skillful tracking. Usually it's just along the lines of the reticle slightly slowing down/speeding up as needed (you almost can't tell if you weren't told it was there, but it really helps) as you track the target, helping you keep on the target. Often times this isn't even an option... it's just there in the game standard. Quote: How about, like others have said, take the end result of player skill, all things considered, and match people based on that. I'll have you know that I've seen many gamepad users that can get the headshot every time in games like CoD and BF, it all comes down to skill. No one is questioning you can be a dead-eye with a pad. But you'll never be as good as keyboard and mouse, all else being equal. Them's the breaks. The mouse is just more tactile. Nothing personal about it.
Conraire Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 52	Posted - 2012.10.22 22:31:00 - [22] - Quote My question is, what stops you from using the KB/M that you used to type this forum thread. Thats all I do, have a USB Hub/card reader that I have my mouse, keyboard, and headset plugged into. And when I want to play Dust on my PS3, I unplug it from my computer and plug it into the USB port on the PS3. My keyboard is a Razer Arctosa, my mouse is an Ideozon Reaper Edge, and my headset is TB PX21. What the OP doesn't realize is, it's not all whine and roses for KB/M users either. The key layout is so convoluted its funny. Like having a push to talk key that doesn't work. Having the grenade key as X, which is oh so fun to try and press while moving and aiming. Not to mention if you play this after having played pretty much any other Online FPS game, you try and push t for push to talk and chat pops up. Not to mention Even on the PC there are games that simply play better with a controller, in fact I have a ps2/3 style usb controller for that purpose. Ever tried playing games like Descent 2 and 3 with a keyboard, or games like the mechwarrior line? It just doesn't work well. In fact I know a great deal of people that use their PS3 controllers to play FPS's on PC because thats how they learned to play.
Th3rdSun L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 323	Posted - 2012.10.22 22:37:00 - [23] - Quote dudeytron wrote: I appreciate we're still in beta, but I'd like to make a suggestion. That suggestion being CCP pit people together based on control being used. Me being a DS3 controller user, I feel I'm limited severely in aiming speed and accuracy. Mouse/keyboard users I suspect have greatly improved aiming abilities. I'm not complaining about keyboard/mouse users, I simply hope the final game considers the differences and puts people into matches against people using the same controller. Why would it make a difference since the KB/M kinda sucks in this beta anyway? I could possibly understand if the mouse were as quick with the turning speed as it is in every other PC shooter,but it's not,and it's far from it,so in my opinion,DS3 users have the clear advantage right now.
D'Finn Rhedlyne Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 266	Posted - 2012.10.22 22:45:00 - [24] - Quote Cpl Quartz wrote: D'Finn Rhedlyne wrote: Beld Errmon wrote: what a load of crap, most of the players that can consistently beat me are controller users. What a load of crap, most of the players that beat me are KB/M users.... this argument will always be the eternal question... better aim over better movement... most of the players that beat me are controller users. lol. Everybody beats me... no matter what they use... I suck in general..
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.10.22 22:49:00 - [25] - Quote Tinodi wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: So basically "give controller users aimbots, and all will be well". I just summed up your entire TL:DR. sigh. No. You just don't know how game development works. Oh lordy, we got ourselves geniass over here! I know what aim assist is, I know how it works, and I know most games have it. I also know that I dislike it, I turn it off (down) in all games I play, as it really just interferes with the experience if the actual controls work properly. Don't go thinking you're the god of knowledge here.
Cpl Quartz 127	Posted - 2012.10.22 23:00:00 - [26] - Quote Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Tinodi wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: So basically "give controller users aimbots, and all will be well". I just summed up your entire TL:DR. sigh. No. You just don't know how game development works. Oh lordy, we got ourselves geniass over here! I know what aim assist is, I know how it works, and I know most games have it. I also know that I dislike it, I turn it off (down) in all games I play, as it really just interferes with the experience if the actual controls work properly. Don't go thinking you're the god of knowledge here. so does unreal engine have aim **** you up?
Cpl Quartz 127	Posted - 2012.10.22 23:09:00 - [27] - Quote ***** dumb fucks that think they are clever. ***** assholes.
Tinodi Doomheim 39	Posted - 2012.10.22 23:34:00 - [28] - Quote Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Tinodi wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: So basically "give controller users aimbots, and all will be well". I just summed up your entire TL:DR. sigh. No. You just don't know how game development works. Oh lordy, we got ourselves geniass over here! I know what aim assist is, I know how it works, and I know most games have it. I also know that I dislike it, I turn it off (down) in all games I play, as it really just interferes with the experience if the actual controls work properly. Don't go thinking you're the god of knowledge here. Leave a snarky comment, get a snarky answer. Referring to aim assist as an aimm bot doesn't exactly display your knowledge.
Noel Bellamy Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 36	Posted - 2012.10.22 23:42:00 - [29] - Quote Conraire wrote: My question is, what stops you from using the KB/M that you used to type this forum thread. The horrible controls with KB/M Method and the inability to change them. My mouse has 5 buttons, the game utilizes 2, I have three useless buttons and a scroll wheel.
D3aTH D3alER54 The Southern Legion 130	Posted - 2012.10.23 00:20:00 - [30] - Quote dudeytron wrote: Fivetimes Infinity wrote: The worst keyboard/mouse player will not be better than the best DS3 player. Separating it by controller type wouldn't by the best way to do it. As Odius pointed out, simply taking the end results and intelligently matchmaking by player ability, period, is the way to go about it. I disagree. The controller has a huge impact and very effectively creates an uneven playing field. I'd love to see the stats...when and if they are broken down by controller type...I'd wager -ú100 the top 100 players will all be using keyboard/mouse. I'll take that bet ( i use controller )

Beld Errmon Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 479	Posted - 2012.10.23 00:30:00 - [31] - Quote D3aTH D3alER54 wrote: I'll take that bet ( i use controller ) ^ one of the controller users that can nail me to the wall
FatalFlaw V1 ISK Faucet Industries 76	Posted - 2012.10.23 00:43:00 - [32] - Quote I use a controller but from the years I spent playing counter-strike I know a mouse will always offer far more precise aiming ability than an analog stick. I originally planned on just using a kb/m for dust but it would require me rearranging my living room or moving my ps3 over to my computer monitor and desk. Neither of which seem worth the hassle atm. Ultimately I wish they would have just released this game for PC instead of ps3. They're trying to hit as many untapped markets as possible though so they went with ps3 yet built in kb/m support. It is a handicap to ds3 users. Regardless of what skill balancing may or may not accomplish, I don't see how its going to work in corp vs corp battles on TQ. Plenty of people will continue to use ds3, and many will be good, but as was already said here, the best players in the game will be using kb/m, not a controller.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.10.23 11:58:00 - [33] - Quote dudeytron wrote: I disagree. The controller has a huge impact and very effectively creates an uneven playing field. I'd love to see the stats...when and if they are broken down by controller type...I'd wager -ú100 the top 100 players will all be using keyboard/mouse. Yeah, you're wrong on that. But anyway, you can't tell if someone is using KB+M or a controller, though. Even if what you say were the case, it would be indistinguishable from the alternative. It isn't like you go into games now and can pick out who's using a mouse and who isn't. There are simply players who do well and players who don't.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.10.23 12:15:00 - [34] - Quote dudeytron wrote: I appreciate we're still in beta, but I'd like to make a suggestion. That suggestion being CCP pit people together based on control being used. Me being a DS3 controller user, I feel I'm limited severely in aiming speed and accuracy. Mouse/keyboard users I suspect have greatly improved aiming abilities. I'm not complaining about keyboard/mouse users, I simply hope the final game considers the differences and puts people into matches against people using the same controller. They mentionned it but input type filtered battle is a bad idea imo. Just add limitations to KBM users, and especially mouse top speed so controller doesnt feel too under-powered. Anyway, for those who used to play on PC, KBM in dust is nothing as accurate as KBM on PC.
Himiko Kuronaga Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 6	Posted - 2012.10.23 12:51:00 - [35] - Quote Frankly I'm not sure what this topic is really about. With KB/M I can't hit the broad side of a barn in this beta. I can't do much with DS3 either. The inconsistent frame rate makes it impossible for me to hit anything with consistency.
Dzark Kill Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 115	Posted - 2012.10.23 13:23:00 - [36] - Quote dudeytron wrote: I appreciate we're still in beta, but I'd like to make a suggestion. That suggestion being CCP pit people together based on control being used. Me being a DS3 controller user, I feel I'm limited severely in aiming speed and accuracy. Mouse/keyboard users I suspect have greatly improved aiming abilities. I'm not complaining about keyboard/mouse users, I simply hope the final game considers the differences and puts people into matches against people using the same controller. Im not going to get involved with the M/KB vs DS3 debate. but what i will say is.. Do you have any clue what this game is, what it is supposed to be. the bigger picture not just this watered down beta. Corp A wants Planet A that corp B currently owns. Corp A puts up a contract to take it. 16 Players from corp A sign up along with 16 players from Corp B. Now for the big question. How do you make it so DS3 players are seperated from KB/M players?????? Good luck. However you can always plug in a KB/M if you think its superior nothing to stop that at all. You can even invest in a couple of switches for about -ú5 at most good retailers so you can change the M/KB control from your PC/PS3 if they are close enough together.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.10.23 13:28:00 - [37] - Quote Depends on the weapon. And try driving and flying with KBM. Also, there was already some mention that KBM users and DS3 users would have the option to separate themselves in high sec (i.e. kiddie pool) battles. But it doesn't really make sense at all to do this for any other part of the game where you want a lot of different types of players together working in groups. And really goes against the entire one shard we all play together thing that makes the EVE universe unique among game worlds. Also, if the Move controls get sorted out I am sure there will be some players that are better with that device than you can theoretically be with controller, since again, you can move the reticle across the screen quickly and accurately when implementation is done well. I don't see anyone asking for Move segregation. I was entirely against KBM support being added to this game for initial release to the public. But since it has been added I haven't seen it pose any problems. The KBM guys have difficulty with some parts of the game that I don't (I use controller) and if it allows more players to enjoy the game then so be it. I think it is kind of cool that there can be a game where everyone plays with what they can most comfortably use. The main problem is one of perception. People will assume KBM users have an unfair advantage before even looking at any evidence. I don't think they do, in the big picture. Really oppose the sort-players-by-algorithm approach to making things "fair" in high sec. I hope it doesn't get out of control. Algorithms are the things that suggest what I want to watch or eat and who I want to be friends with and no I was kind of thinking I need to be more healthy, so I am going with steamed kale, I wonder if there's a place that delivers? And I am kind of getting sick of Jean Luc Godard so screw your pretentious films time for some Mad Man Dexter Hercules the Legendary Crime Scene Investigator, or maybe Game of Parks and Boardwalk Recreation who the **** are these people? I don't know any of these people. Why would I want to friend them? But that's just me.
Oxskull Duncarino Shadow Company HQ 164	Posted - 2012.10.23 13:33:00 - [38] - Quote Th3rdSun wrote: dudeytron wrote: I appreciate we're still in beta, but I'd like to make a suggestion. That suggestion being CCP pit people together based on control being used. Me being a DS3 controller user, I feel I'm limited severely in aiming speed and accuracy. Mouse/keyboard users I suspect have greatly improved aiming abilities. I'm not complaining about keyboard/mouse users, I simply hope the final game considers the differences and puts people into matches against people using the same controller. Why would it make a difference since the KB/M kinda sucks in this beta anyway? I could possibly understand if the mouse were as quick with the turning speed as it is in every other PC shooter,but it's not,and it's far from it,so in my opinion,DS3 users have the clear advantage right now. Both DS3 and KB/M users have the exact same turning speed. CCP have designed it so that each suit type will have a maximum turn rate with the heavy obviously being the slowest. I use the DS3 and get on great with it. My history is mainly KB/M FPS on the pc but the DS3 is very easy to grab and chill out with the game. I have a razor gamepad and a good mouse but comfort trumps the edge I'd get from using them.


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