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Casual Players, Hardcore Players, and SP Reward System

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Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1041	Posted - 2012.10.15 18:06:00 - [1] - Quote Objective: Have a reward system that benefits casual and hardcore players without penalizing them. Current sp system: - Player numbers fall off dramatically when they hit anti grind. This weekend I saw the same people over and over while that hardly happened during week after reset. - Hardcore players tend to grind and stop playing. I myself played very little after getting 2k per match not even the limit. - I have used a lot less aurum items because of this naturally because I play less. - Casual players will be at long term disadvantage if they donGÇÖt max their sp each week because they will never be able to catch up. - New players will always be behind because they will never be able to catch up. - FPS players tend to switch between games when new ones come out the go back to others and again will always be behind. I may love dust but I am going to play the next COD. - The biggest issue is that it needs to be a reward not penalty system which obviously brings big negativity. Solution This is an alternative strategy and I am going keep it high level for the most part. First Adjust the sp rewards so that daily you have daily bonus then applies limited diminishing returns but not so brutal as it is now. Second introduce the loyalty points program (can be limited at first). The idea is that sp isnGÇÖt the only factor in balancing. The LP program is intended to be an isk sink and secondary grind currency. More importantly the LP program isnGÇÖt about skills itGÇÖs about items which are disposable so there is never a constant advantage for hardcore gamers. Skills - I would suggest having a proficiency skills level required for all LP items. That means hardcore players would require a secondary grind for limited use items. At the same time casual players can earn sp at decent rate to be able to wear proto level gear in time. - I think the eve understanding of sp is needed here. The biggest different in eve between a 30 mill sp pilot and 100 mill sp pilot is that the 100 mill sp pilot can fit and fly more ships then the 30 mill sp pilot(not 70 mill sp better). That needs to be same approach in dust. A casual player may be maxed in assault suit, AR, support skills and that would be equal to a hardcore player if they had same skills. The hardcore player with more sp will simply put into other skills and thatGÇÖs fair. Loyalty Point Program in brief - A beginning of match (in Hisec or FW) you choose 1 of 3 npc corporations to represent. How well your team does is the determining factor in how much LP you earn. Winning the match doubles you LP earned. If you win the Match your standing with said corp goes up. - Higher standings for a particular NPC corp allows you to purchase better gear. - Standing tick down. Like it or not mercs arenGÇÖt loyal nor is NPC corps. Daily your standings in every corp will tick down. This means hardcore players will always have something to work for. It should be impossible for a merc to have max standings with every NPC corp. - Restricted Blue Print Copies or RBPC mean any LP item canGÇÖt be sold or transferred. This is to stop LP farming (eve FW farming anyone?). This means individuals have to earn it. - I think the LP system will need to be fair as the idea of hardcore players rolling full LP suits in 10 corp battles a day is out of the question. I am more of a casual player and would hate to have to deal with this. At the same time this means I shouldnGÇÖt be seeing a lot of LP gear in public play either. This means skill and equipment wise there shouldnGÇÖt be any advantage or disadvantage between casual and hardcore players. Conclusion Is this 100% awesome with side of apple sauce? No. It fulfills the objective though. I assume the LP program is on the road map for dust and may not be a priority for go live. My concern is that trying to balance rewards on sp alone will always have a huge negative impact on every part of the player base, even if not intended. So as always please respond with the good, bad, alternative, and best trolls. Free Beers
Ryoshia Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2012.10.15 18:38:00 - [2] - Quote I agree with you, I play casually to. If after two or three back to back losses I am usually like screw this and go off back to Chrono Cross (Yeah I play a lot of retro games so what?!), but I mean if it's reversed, I will continue to play, or if I am playing with my Corporation. I would like to see some type of reward system that makes those casual players play a little bit more.. as well. Edit WOOOO First Post ever!!!
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 789	Posted - 2012.10.15 19:14:00 - [3] - Quote Current system is not great, I think everyone can agree! Now is the time to suggest alternatives that reward you for fun play! This post is a nice post. I especially like the idea of LP rewards being bound to character to prevent mass farming in the sense that eve FW currently experiences.
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1904	Posted - 2012.10.15 19:27:00 - [4] - Quote I don't mind the cap so much as I mind how they've handled the rate at which you get your SP. Right now, you get front loaded with SP so your first day or so of matches is great, and then the rest of the week it just feels like there's virtually no point in playing. I still think we should have 100% SP, and instead of gaining SP from battles we should be able to pool up our WP and spend them on other things (no idea what). All I know is that having to grind out your SP like this is bad, I just don't know what the right course of action is. It's very important to find a way that doesn't alienate casuals and hardcores anymore than they already are.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.10.15 19:29:00 - [5] - Quote I am a fan of fixing the SP system so it hands out diminish bonuses instead of putting a brick wall in the hardcore players' faces. LP and other faction activities give further opportunity to grow in the game even as SP becomes less important. I'd love to see both systems appear so we can all have some fun all week, instead of until we "cap out".
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2012.10.15 20:17:00 - [6] - Quote Fundamentally we need more things in game to do other than farming SP. Smashing other corps in corp battles is good. Pushing faction warfare systems would be better. Having some PVE things to farm for officer gear etc would be pretty great too. Having to do logistics to support all these bits of gameplay would be good fun for some types of players. Introducing LP to the game would be one of those things. I see ZERO reason it should locked to the account however, people should be able to make choices about what they do with their rewards. Eve free enterprise system works well as is, what's happening in Eve FW is just a bug that's getting fixed. The correct fix for SP specifically is for CCP to decide WHAT an active player is. Is an active (average skill) player someone that plays for 2 hours a night? If so then simply spread the SP rewards out evenly'ish such that it's achievable over the course of a week. If there are alternative things to do after those SP have been gained then people will keep playing. The current system of brutal diminishing returns is awful. It's an "anti-grind" that is in fact the worst kind of grind as people are forced to choose whether say 1000 SP per match is worth it etc etc etc. tldr; Normalize SP for a 2 hour a night average player. Put interesting things to do in the game besides GRIND SP.
Captain-Awesome 2	Posted - 2012.10.15 20:22:00 - [7] - Quote "Is this 100% awesome with side of apple sauce? No." lol maybe but the idea to alternative rewards is what is really awesome with apple sauce. I fully agree, there needs to be something other than sp to keep us interested, leaderboards doesn't seem to have that competitive relevance here and I think another form of reward would be a nice way of counteracting the no sp gain, something that doesn't make our game better but does reward us with better game play as a whole.
Governor Odius Doomheim 177	Posted - 2012.10.15 20:45:00 - [8] - Quote Man, you guys should try EVE. You know how much SP you get for a fight there? It's zero. And, as predicted, everyone stop playing because getting SP is the only reason to play a game. That's why EVE has zero players.
Ryoshia Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2012.10.15 20:47:00 - [9] - Quote Don't get me wrong I am not against the Diminishing returns either.. Actually I am quite for them.. MAG had one thing right (not trying to draw any flames or anything.). I would like to see a one hour double SP/ISK gain. If you hit the cap during the time factor in the diminishing returns with the double gain, if you don't, have a slightly higher output of ISK and SP. With the current set up I barely have enough money to get a high end first tier (like the last items of the first tier) stocked. Now mind you I don't completely suck, but I do typically have a lower positive KDR most of the time. Though it has been the rise since I recently joined a Corporation, but that's just my personal experience.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1041	Posted - 2012.10.15 20:56:00 - [10] - Quote Governor Odius wrote: Man, you guys should try EVE. You know how much SP you get for a fight there? It's zero. And, as predicted, everyone stop playing because getting SP is the only reason to play a game. That's why EVE has zero players. You would think if thats the direction ccp wanted to go they would have. Trolling 0/10

Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.15 21:48:00 - [11] - Quote The two arguments I've seen against the SP cap are: Hardcore players "stop playing" after they reach the skill cap because of diminished returns. Casual players "can't catch up" to hardcore players because of the skill cap. So, if we took the skill cap away and a "hardcore player" didn't stop playing because there was no skill cap: Hardcore players would keep playing & earning sp/isk. Casual players would be able to "catch up" to the hardcore players who play the game for longer periods of time than they do. Clearly, we need to get rid of the SP cap.
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.10.15 22:25:00 - [12] - Quote Whether they decide to go back to a daily reset or a weekly reset the time for increased SP accumulation % or maxcap should "stack" to a certain maximum for each cycle that a player has been away. This would encourage players who went off to other games or had life get in the way to return to Dust.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1041	Posted - 2012.10.15 22:53:00 - [13] - Quote Longshot Ravenwood wrote: The two arguments I've seen against the SP cap are: Hardcore players "stop playing" after they reach the skill cap because of diminished returns. Casual players "can't catch up" to hardcore players because of the skill cap. So, if we took the skill cap away and a "hardcore player" didn't stop playing because there was no skill cap: Hardcore players would keep playing & earning sp/isk. Casual players would be able to "catch up" to the hardcore players who play the game for longer periods of time than they do. Clearly, we need to get rid of the SP cap. good points and sarcasim So a few things. I went for solution that didn't put casual vs hardcore players. 1. I take a long term view with dust and sp. In the first month of course hardcore gamers will have advantage but in fps model action = reward. If casual players like me skill properly then focuses and maxes certain skills (AR, Assault suit, support skills) it wont matter if hardcore player has 100 mill sp more then me because I am still on equal footing. A hardcore gamer may be able to fit proto scout, heavy, and logi suits. That is fair because having logi suit to 5 has zero effect if he is wearing an assault suit. 2. With the LP idea its gear which is used up that is avilable as secondary grind to players. This means there isn't a constant skill advantage between casual and hardcore players. This to me is huge as I dont want to be in pub matches and get destroyed because a college kid earned 100 mill sp over the summer. If I have AR, AR prof, and weapontry to 5 I have the same damage potential has he does (depending on fit of course) using an AR. Trying to start a new discussion about alternatives not rehashing the same heated argument over caps and antigrind.
Ima Leet Imperfects Negative-Feedback 321	Posted - 2012.10.15 23:51:00 - [14] - Quote i think they just need to give us a sort of cool down on the SP diminishing part. dont play for a few hours and the next time you play you'll earn more SP for the first few games. there will still be a cap but it feels like your earning something. it also might allow players to earn more of their SP so they dont lose it to resets. i feel i lost SP last reset and will this one as well....since i dont play til i earn 1 and 0 SP a game
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2012.10.16 00:05:00 - [15] - Quote Ima Leet wrote: i feel i lost SP last reset and will this one as well....since i dont play til i earn 1 and 0 SP a game That's why I say this "anti-grind" is the worst kind of grind. Simply normalize the SP payouts so most active players get them.
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.16 01:45:00 - [16] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: Ima Leet wrote: i feel i lost SP last reset and will this one as well....since i dont play til i earn 1 and 0 SP a game That's why I say this "anti-grind" is the worst kind of grind. Simply normalize the SP payouts so most active players get them. Completely right -- the SP should be available uncapped so that the players who play the most matches have the highest SP and completely outstrip everyone else in the game with both ISK and SP to the point where unless you're one of the "haves" you become a "have not" and corporation matches become a liability because of there being no SP gains for your character when the time spent could be used skilling up. This is the age of the microwave society. We want to drive a marauder and we want it now god damnit. And if I can't grind at full speed until I get it I'm going to go play another game because kitten balanced gameplay and making sure new players can get in after I start. The only thing that matters are how many skill points I have and how good this equipment makes my kdr look. Kitten everything that doesn't help me play my game the way I want to and kitten you for wanting to play it differently, you're clearly wrong. I beat all of the other first person shooters in 40 hours of game-play and I'll be kittened if I can't do the same with this one. After all, video games are made to be beaten -- not played.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1041	Posted - 2012.10.16 02:47:00 - [17] - Quote Longshot Ravenwood wrote: Telcontar Dunedain wrote: Ima Leet wrote: i feel i lost SP last reset and will this one as well....since i dont play til i earn 1 and 0 SP a game That's why I say this "anti-grind" is the worst kind of grind. Simply normalize the SP payouts so most active players get them. Completely right -- the SP should be available uncapped so that the players who play the most matches have the highest SP and completely outstrip everyone else in the game with both ISK and SP to the point where unless you're one of the "haves" you become a "have not" and corporation matches become a liability because of there being no SP gains for your character when the time spent could be used skilling up. This is the age of the microwave society. We want to drive a marauder and we want it now god damnit. And if I can't grind at full speed until I get it I'm going to go play another game because kitten balanced gameplay and making sure new players can get in after I start. The only thing that matters are how many skill points I have and how good this equipment makes my kdr look. Kitten everything that doesn't help me play my game the way I want to and kitten you for wanting to play it differently, you're clearly wrong. I beat all of the other first person shooters in 40 hours of game-play and I'll be kittened if I can't do the same with this one. After all, video games are made to be beaten -- not played. You mad bro? Why don't you offer up new ideas or solutions to help solve the problem. While you are working on that stop being fking hypocrite about peoples play style preference when you just did the same.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.10.16 03:34:00 - [18] - Quote Quote: he following topics were discussed by the dev team this week regarding gameplay issues in the beta: Casual vs. Hardcore players in DUST 514 Player concern on how will casual players be able to keep up with hardcore players who might spend more time playing and gaining an advantage in SP and ISK. Planned resolutions - A revamped reward system will narrow the gap between casual and hardcore players - Match Making system (introduced soon) will help put players into fair matches - Dropsuit HP will be more consistant to avoid some becoming overpowered Source This raises two questions for me that seem quite relvant to the current SP cap system. 1. What are "Hardcore" and "Casual" players defined as within Dust 514? Is someone who plays a total of 7 hours in a week Casual or Hardcore? How about 14 hours? How about 21? What average playtime in a day makes someone a "Hardcore" player? Does that include all playtime or only play time that happens in match? Does in match play time include the matches someone is added to which are already half finished? 2. How robust is this Match Making system intended to be? (i.e. how much of the "play time gap" will the match making system be expected to properly account for?). Is the current SP system doing enough to balance time investment as is or is the current system seen as inadequate and in need of an additional mechanic to 'normalize' player rewards? It seems to me that both of these questions need to be answered before an approach to the issue can be made constructively. Because; if Player A sees anyone who plays 7 hours or more per week as hardcore and the current SP system as not going far enough to protect casual players. And Player B sees anyone who plays less than 30 hours as casual and thinks the current SP system is excessively stringent when combined with the planned Match Making system. Not only are they likely to disagree about solutions but they're really not even talking about the same thing when we move beyond the most macro level. 0.02 ISK Cross
Omnipotens Zitro Doomheim 425	Posted - 2012.10.16 04:07:00 - [19] - Quote When I beat a game I usually never play it again. Why you might ask? It is because there is nothing more to do inside the game. If I play an FPS online I usually quit the game after I have gotten to the final prestige/lvl for my character. Why you might ask? It is because there is nothing more to achieve with that game. Yes there is competitive gaming and the like but after there is nothing more to really achieve. When I hit the SP cap I lose all interest in playing the game. Why is that? There is nothing to play for. CCP stated in an interview a couple months ago that to train for all the skill it will take SEVEN years to achieve. They also stated that the reason why they implemented active SP was that player who start a couple months after launch could techniquely catch up to players who started on day one. Because on of the main problems with EVE is that you can never catch up to day one character. With A Hard SP cap nobody will ever catch a day one character in EVE. Also alot of players stop playing when they hit or get close to the SP cap because who like playing a game to be rewarded with nothing. The problem with that after a few weeks players will grab onto another game that is more rewarding. Who wants to wait to be rewarded? I have with no problem with a soft SP cap. Nothing lower than earning 1,000 SP is perfect while earning a LP program is F'in amazing because it will keep me and many other in the game because there will be something to earn and reach for.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1041	Posted - 2012.10.16 04:08:00 - [20] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Quote: he following topics were discussed by the dev team this week regarding gameplay issues in the beta: Casual vs. Hardcore players in DUST 514 Player concern on how will casual players be able to keep up with hardcore players who might spend more time playing and gaining an advantage in SP and ISK. Planned resolutions - A revamped reward system will narrow the gap between casual and hardcore players - Match Making system (introduced soon) will help put players into fair matches - Dropsuit HP will be more consistant to avoid some becoming overpowered Source This raises two questions for me that seem quite relvant to the current SP cap system. 1. What are "Hardcore" and "Casual" players defined as within Dust 514? Is someone who plays a total of 7 hours in a week Casual or Hardcore? How about 14 hours? How about 21? What average playtime in a day makes someone a "Hardcore" player? Does that include all playtime or only play time that happens in match? Does in match play time include the matches someone is added to which are already half finished? 2. How robust is this Match Making system intended to be? (i.e. how much of the "play time gap" will the match making system be expected to properly account for?). Is the current SP system doing enough to balance time investment as is or is the current system seen as inadequate and in need of an additional mechanic to 'normalize' player rewards? It seems to me that both of these questions need to be answered before an approach to the issue can be made constructively. Because; if Player A sees anyone who plays 7 hours or more per week as hardcore and the current SP system as not going far enough to protect casual players. And Player B sees anyone who plays less than 30 hours as casual and thinks the current SP system is excessively stringent when combined with the planned Match Making system. Not only are they likely to disagree about solutions but they're really not even talking about the same thing when we move beyond the most macro level. 0.02 ISK Cross You are absolutely correct Cross. Who or what defines a casual or hardcore player. Truth is though I dont care. What I offerend up was a solution that makes sp part of the reward system instead of main part of the reward system. Skill points should give you access to gear and bonuses on them. Make that middle of the road with no caps, daily bonus, and mild anti grind. Add in LP programs with standings and you have an addition grind and currency. skill advantage is a constant but shifting longer grinds to gear access and purchasing is preferable.

Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.16 04:33:00 - [21] - Quote Free Beers wrote: Longshot Ravenwood wrote: Telcontar Dunedain wrote: Ima Leet wrote: i feel i lost SP last reset and will this one as well....since i dont play til i earn 1 and 0 SP a game That's why I say this "anti-grind" is the worst kind of grind. Simply normalize the SP payouts so most active players get them. Completely right -- the SP should be available uncapped so that the players who play the most matches have the highest SP and completely outstrip everyone else in the game with both ISK and SP to the point where unless you're one of the "haves" you become a "have not" and corporation matches become a liability because of there being no SP gains for your character when the time spent could be used skilling up. This is the age of the microwave society. We want to drive a marauder and we want it now god damnit. And if I can't grind at full speed until I get it I'm going to go play another game because kitten balanced gameplay and making sure new players can get in after I start. The only thing that matters are how many skill points I have and how good this equipment makes my kdr look. Kitten everything that doesn't help me play my game the way I want to and kitten you for wanting to play it differently, you're clearly wrong. I beat all of the other first person shooters in 40 hours of game-play and I'll be kittened if I can't do the same with this one. After all, video games are made to be beaten -- not played. You mad bro? Why don't you offer up new ideas or solutions to help solve the problem. While you are working on that stop being fking hypocrite about peoples play style preference when you just did the same. Just playing devil's advocate to the extreme Too much sarcasm? I might need a forum break. Already offered many ideas regarding balancing SP gains in the feedback forum repeatedly but I'll throw in my .02 isk here too -- you asked for it Days Since Last Reset = Dslr Current SP = Csp However Quickly CCP Wants Us To Gain SP = WUT? Hard Cap on Earned SP = HCoeSP (HCoeSP = 500,000 + 24000(Dslr)(WUT?)) Daily Soft Cap on Earned SP = DSCoeSP (SCoeSP = (HCoeSP-Csp)/2) So, we'll say that in 1 week, CCP wants to someone to be able to reach 1,500,000 SP as a hard cap (1,000,000 SP gain per week maximum). Using that as a reference point, WUT? is 5.95238 The "Daily Soft Cap on Earned SP" is where the anti-grind kicks in. So, for Day 1 we'll say that CCP wants us to only be able to rach 642,857 SP. Since we're starting wtih 500,000 SP, our soft cap for day 1 will be 71,428 sp, at which point the anti-grind kicks in, so we stop playing pretty quickly (or not, depending on your style.) leaving you at about 571,429 sp. If you stopped at anti-grind on day 1, and just collected your remaining 24 hours of passive sp, then on day 2 you'd be able to rack up 95,142 sp before anti-grind kicks in again, now you have 690,571 sp. (out of a possible 785714 sp) You grind every day to the anti-grind and at the end of day 7 you have 1,263,768 SP (out of a possible 1,500,000). Now let's adjust the formula for a "weekend warrior". You played the first day of the build just like everyone else leaving you at about 571,429 sp. Then you worked for the next 4 days without being able to play at all. Now you're back. You've got 691,429 sp and your grind will kick in when you hit 332,857 sp. You power through until the anti-grind activates and when you come back to play tomorrow you've got 1,048,286 sp now. Today's "grind" will kick in when you hit 225,857 sp earned, etc.... --- Or we can adjust the formula: Game Week = GW Hard Cap on Earned SP = HCoeSP (HCoeSP = 500,000 + 1,000,000GW) Daily Soft Cap on Earned SP = DSCoeSP (SCoeSP = (HCoeSP-Csp)/2) But if you do that it just gets kind of silly with a daily player grinding to 500,000 sp on day 1, then less and less until the anti-grind becomes negative instead of positive...which gets awkward. --- So we'll adjust it to meet in the middle and see what happens. To do this we'll change WUT? to 2.976193 And make the Hard Cap on Earned SP = HCoeSP (HCoeSP = 500,000(1+ GW) 24000(Dslr)*(WUT?)) Now the available grind on day 1 is 285,714 sp. If you max that out and stop on day 2 it'll be 166,571 sp, and on day 3 you'll get a quick 77,214 sp. Etc... A weekend warrior plays 3 days and has a grind point of 285,714 on day 1, 261,428 on day 6, and 154428 on day 7. On day 8, we get the next week's boost & if he wanted to grind he would be able to grind a whole 350,928 sp. --- Taking a look at each if we fought to the pain (anti-grind) -- a daily player would get 1,263,768/1,500,000 in the first week while a weekend warrior (we'll just say 2 days of playing to anti-grind, the 6th & the 7th) would get 1,012,571/1,500,000 (if we were calculating everything with just daily) and those same two would get 1,397,697/1,500,000 and 1,048,286/1,500,00 respectively if we had a combination weekly & dailiy rollover. Save vs death, to avoid 20d12 damage from the wall of text.
Cynn Bruin Doomheim 0	Posted - 2012.10.16 13:08:00 - [22] - Quote There is one thing I don't think CCP thought about... Whether you have an SP cap or not in this system, a new character will never catch up to a day 1 character. As Beers stated, if you invest wisely and only focus on a certain skill set (AR's / Suits), you will be able to compete with a day 1 character. This is just a little bit flawed. It is flawed because while "eventually" the new character will be able to compete, with this SP cap and grind, he won't be able to compete for a couple months. I am a multi-gamer, I play any kind of game that draws my interest, I don't stick to one genre of game. I can say this with certainty... FPS players will move on from DUST quickly if this current SP system goes live. Please listen to the ideas presented here and throughout the forums CCP, there are alot of good ones.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.10.16 19:58:00 - [23] - Quote Free Beers wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Quote: he following topics were discussed by the dev team this week regarding gameplay issues in the beta: Casual vs. Hardcore players in DUST 514 Player concern on how will casual players be able to keep up with hardcore players who might spend more time playing and gaining an advantage in SP and ISK. Planned resolutions - A revamped reward system will narrow the gap between casual and hardcore players - Match Making system (introduced soon) will help put players into fair matches - Dropsuit HP will be more consistant to avoid some becoming overpowered Source This raises two questions for me that seem quite relvant to the current SP cap system. 1. What are "Hardcore" and "Casual" players defined as within Dust 514? Is someone who plays a total of 7 hours in a week Casual or Hardcore? How about 14 hours? How about 21? What average playtime in a day makes someone a "Hardcore" player? Does that include all playtime or only play time that happens in match? Does in match play time include the matches someone is added to which are already half finished? 2. How robust is this Match Making system intended to be? (i.e. how much of the "play time gap" will the match making system be expected to properly account for?). Is the current SP system doing enough to balance time investment as is or is the current system seen as inadequate and in need of an additional mechanic to 'normalize' player rewards? It seems to me that both of these questions need to be answered before an approach to the issue can be made constructively. Because; if Player A sees anyone who plays 7 hours or more per week as hardcore and the current SP system as not going far enough to protect casual players. And Player B sees anyone who plays less than 30 hours as casual and thinks the current SP system is excessively stringent when combined with the planned Match Making system. Not only are they likely to disagree about solutions but they're really not even talking about the same thing when we move beyond the most macro level. 0.02 ISK Cross You are absolutely correct Cross. Who or what defines a casual or hardcore player. Truth is though I dont care. What I offerend up was a solution that makes sp part of the reward system instead of main part of the reward system. Skill points should give you access to gear and bonuses on them. Make that middle of the road with no caps, daily bonus, and mild anti grind. Add in LP programs with standings and you have an addition grind and currency. skill advantage is a constant but shifting longer grinds to gear access and purchasing is preferable. I notice I didn't seem to address your OP very much in my post, that's what I get for posting tired I guess >.< Anyway my general sense of the OP is that the idea as merit on the macro and on the mechanical I'm still chewing over possible implications (i.e. how easy would it be to find ways to 'break/exploit' the system). One major area I'm interested to get your feedback on is how you see a LP system interacting with/affecting the AUR gear current present as the revenue source for Dust? They seem conceptually similar and thus depending on iteration might tread on each others toes, what are your thoughts there? Cheers :) Cross
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1041	Posted - 2012.10.16 22:48:00 - [24] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Free Beers wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Quote: he following topics were discussed by the dev team this week regarding gameplay issues in the beta: Casual vs. Hardcore players in DUST 514 Player concern on how will casual players be able to keep up with hardcore players who might spend more time playing and gaining an advantage in SP and ISK. Planned resolutions - A revamped reward system will narrow the gap between casual and hardcore players - Match Making system (introduced soon) will help put players into fair matches - Dropsuit HP will be more consistant to avoid some becoming overpowered Source This raises two questions for me that seem quite relvant to the current SP cap system. 1. What are "Hardcore" and "Casual" players defined as within Dust 514? Is someone who plays a total of 7 hours in a week Casual or Hardcore? How about 14 hours? How about 21? What average playtime in a day makes someone a "Hardcore" player? Does that include all playtime or only play time that happens in match? Does in match play time include the matches someone is added to which are already half finished? 2. How robust is this Match Making system intended to be? (i.e. how much of the "play time gap" will the match making system be expected to properly account for?). Is the current SP system doing enough to balance time investment as is or is the current system seen as inadequate and in need of an additional mechanic to 'normalize' player rewards? It seems to me that both of these questions need to be answered before an approach to the issue can be made constructively. Because; if Player A sees anyone who plays 7 hours or more per week as hardcore and the current SP system as not going far enough to protect casual players. And Player B sees anyone who plays less than 30 hours as casual and thinks the current SP system is excessively stringent when combined with the planned Match Making system. Not only are they likely to disagree about solutions but they're really not even talking about the same thing when we move beyond the most macro level. 0.02 ISK Cross You are absolutely correct Cross. Who or what defines a casual or hardcore player. Truth is though I dont care. What I offerend up was a solution that makes sp part of the reward system instead of main part of the reward system. Skill points should give you access to gear and bonuses on them. Make that middle of the road with no caps, daily bonus, and mild anti grind. Add in LP programs with standings and you have an addition grind and currency. skill advantage is a constant but shifting longer grinds to gear access and purchasing is preferable. I notice I didn't seem to address your OP very much in my post, that's what I get for posting tired I guess >.< Anyway my general sense of the OP is that the idea as merit on the macro and on the mechanical I'm still chewing over possible implications (i.e. how easy would it be to find ways to 'break/exploit' the system). One major area I'm interested to get your feedback on is how you see a LP system interacting with/affecting the AUR gear current present as the revenue source for Dust? They seem conceptually similar and thus depending on iteration might tread on each others toes, what are your thoughts there? Cheers :) Cross Normally in a pay to play business model items that are for purchase can't be earned in game. So likely what you would see are different, yet similar items available for aurum. Since it should be impossible to have high standing in all npc corps "hardcore" players would still need to buy some aurum items if they want all the best. Casual player earn LP slower then others but they could still buy aurum items too. The devil is always in the details but its a solid direction i think
Badly Owned xOne Man Armyx 49	Posted - 2012.10.16 23:37:00 - [25] - Quote I would prefer that they remove Decay all together let me Hit cap as quickly as possible. So i can move on to a different things that do not give sp (future release content) , Corp battle, fraction warfare, Null sec, and pve content. Plus since this game is a "long Term game" console people still want to play the latest "new Release 1 week titles" only Go between i can think to do is Keep the Weekly Soft cap have no Decay for the amount of weekly soft cap. But what about the people that come in a month later? easy fix for that. They have no decay on the Weekly soft cap. Once these people hit the soft cap a Decay kicks in for them like we have now. So after about 2-3 more months they can actually catch up to the Hard Cap (which the hard cap is the total accumulation of soft caps since release) till they are in the same boat as the people that have played dust since release. Since we do not have all the "additional Content" that will not pay SP. do you want to spend your time in "High Sec" Matches Grinding away at Decay? I would rather Hit 0 then move on to other things.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.10.16 23:49:00 - [26] - Quote I agree the direction has promise What I'm driving at most is what niche will the loyalty gear fill, i.e. what's it's draw? For a quick (rough) macro comparison I'll use the current gear. Milita gear - low ISK cost point, some AUR BPOs, no skill requirements (drawbacks... just about everything else) AUR gear - Lower skill requirements than proximately equivalent ISK gear (darabacks; costs AUR = RIL cash) Proto gear - Best stats, fitting options, etc. in theory it's just the best gear (Drawbacks; Highest cost in both ISK and Skill Points) LP gear - Pros ??? (Drawbacks??) I think balancing the factions within a LP system won't be as hard, there are already strong and weak points for each faction regarding their tech, so (and I'd move it to 4 LP stores, one for each faction) having gear from each won't be too hard to tailor IMO. The hard part is figuring out the baseline for LP gear to draw from. (I'll throw out some ideas but I'm pretty much fishing here) Is LP gear; AUR light gear? (i.e. easier to fit but not as easy as AUR gear and requires LP and standing?) An ISK discount (i.e. stats are the same as gear on the market but ISK cost is lower, but also requires LP and standing?) Something else? Personally I'm hoping there's a #3 to be used but I'm drawing a blank. Problem with #1 - detracts from the value of AUR items by providing the same (if lessor) advantage without AUR. Also detracts from AUR sales a second time by taking an whole portion of the player base out of the potential customer pool (why buy AUR when you've already spent the time to grind out LPs? Problem with #2 - Player market will render this difficult to implement. 'Hardcore' players are likely to have more ISK already so LPs become of lessor value to them (i.e. "why grind to keep my faction standing up when I can just spend the ISK to buy normal gear anyway?"). I feel like if we can find the sweet spot, the right niche for LP gear to fill, then this concept could really take of I'm just not quite sure as of yet what that sweet spot is. 0.02 ISK Cross
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.17 01:23:00 - [27] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: What I'm driving at most is what niche will the loyalty gear fill, i.e. what's it's draw? For a quick (rough) macro comparison I'll use the current gear. Milita gear - low ISK cost point, some AUR BPOs, no skill requirements (drawbacks... just about everything else) AUR gear - Lower skill requirements than proximately equivalent ISK gear (darabacks; costs AUR = RIL cash) Proto gear - Best stats, fitting options, etc. in theory it's just the best gear (Drawbacks; Highest cost in both ISK and Skill Points) LP gear - Pros ??? (Drawbacks??) I'd expect LP gear to be better quality than Proto with lower skill requirements. Additionally I'd expect we'd find some faction gear that requires unusual skill combinations (like requiring two different suit operation skills at lvl 3 for a heavy-logistic suit or an assault-scout suit).
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 360	Posted - 2012.10.17 04:14:00 - [28] - Quote I would love to see LP come into the game, the LP system in eve is fun.
RedBleach LeSanglant Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 136	Posted - 2012.10.17 16:53:00 - [29] - Quote (Rolled a 17, Is the DC check 15 and what skill do I add (reflex save? or fortitude?)) Cross, I appreciate your well thought out reasoning and explanations. An LP system would be interesting, but let us see what the most recent update will bring as they are switching to a daily SP cap again. (see the weekly update thread).
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.17 23:27:00 - [30] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: (Rolled a 17, Is the DC check 15 and what skill do I add (reflex save? or fortitude?)) 4th edition rules, so you just use your death saving bonus -- dc was 10, so you'll live



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