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Billi Gene
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 13:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
My Suggested Fix (feel free to comment below, or to make your own suggestions) :
Do not change any of the current mechanics surrounding WP gain or OB/PS, unless such changes are seen as needed due to factors outside of the situation created by players 'farming SP' from remote repping of vehicles outside of the combat zone.
instead,
create a PS3 side (as opposed to server side) loop, that monitors successful hits upon enemies by a merc, their vehicle or the merc or vehicle they are remote repping, the uninterrupted duration of the loop is 5 minutes. This loop resets every time a hit is scored upon an enemy merc, structure or vehicle, but creates an encrypted data log on the PS3 which in turn resets/wipes after two weeks.
When the loop hits 5 minutes, the merc gets booted from the match, all accrued SP, WP and ISK gained from the match are lost, and the player loses their fitting and current vehicle. In all probability all they will lose is their remote repper, if that is all they were doing, but this system will also boot inactive mercs be that because they are 'AFK' for too long or because they were busy crashing a jeep or dropship.
Players that often afk will show no gains for matches they are booted from, players that are remote repper farming and get booted will be easy to spot. It would still be possible to bypass this system, but only by entering active combat with an enemy, of which both the remote repper and the vehicle pilot would both have to register hits upon an enemy merc, structure or vehicle, at least once WITHIN every 5 minute period of non-combat, starting with the last recorded hit against an enemy.
The data file created to record when a player hits the 5 minute 'inactive' limit should last longer then a single SP Cap period, so as to allow for monitoring of weekly 'Farming' sessions. The data file will automatically upload to the server at the nearest possible time after its collection period, and if it has actually recorded 'inactive' behavior only.
Given that the loop will only monitor for one parameter, reseting after each hit registered against an enemy merc, structure or vehicle and will only record (to the HDD) when a player gets booted from a match, along with their SP,WP and ISK gains for that match, the whole process should have a negligible impact on system performance. Uploads to CCP will only occur at the minimum of two week intervals, and at the nearest time after such a period, to allow for players disconnecting their PS3 from the Internet.
Such a routine will allow for reprimands or harsher punishments based upon solid evidence. Tampering with a PS3 to allow a player to bypass the loop should be viewed as a direct violation of both the EULA for DUST and Sony's own protection agreement for their PS3, at which point player reports of someone remote repper farming should be enough to start server side monitoring, and presumably severe punishment or reprimand.
Obvious disadvantage:
getting booted from an Ambush Match of which no enemy Mercs joined due to off peak population. Perhaps this would get down to a tighter regimen for the Match Making system.
the 5 minute timer on the loop may be too short... which would be grievous, as a 10 minute loop would provide ample time to circumvent the system. suggestions? |
Mira Adari
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
79
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 13:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
First: 5 min are too much, given the length of the average Ambush match. Second: What about logis who play legitimately and heal/revive comrades for an extended time period?
No, the solution to the problem is not to punish anyone, but to incite teamplay and make winning a match matter, i.e. SP bonus for the winning team with reduced SP gain from individual player actions. The way to maximize your personal gain should always be to play the game as intended. That way anyone will play to reach the same goal, those who play for the team and also those who play for their personal growth. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 13:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Leave timer at 5 minutes but change condition to "scores hit on or is hit by" enemy forces. If you're in active battle you or someone you're repping will either hit or bit hit buy enemy forces within that time frame.
Even the most dedicated pure medic gets shot it |
Billi Gene
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 13:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mira Adari wrote:First: 5 min are too much, given the length of the average Ambush match. Second: What about logis who play legitimately and heal/revive comrades for an extended time period?
No, the solution to the problem is not to punish anyone, but to incite teamplay and make winning a match matter, i.e. SP bonus for the winning team with reduced SP gain from individual player actions. The way to maximize your personal gain should always be to play the game as intended. That way anyone will play to reach the same goal, those who play for the team and also those who play for their personal growth.
the time limit was a hard choice, and i in no way stand by it, too long and its easy to circumvent, too short and the system is broken.
my suggested idea (i play logi) is that the loop takes into account anyone you are repping, so as long as you rep someone during a fire fight, you are safe... IF you insist on not firing a shot yourself.
not to be defensive, but only to answer... this does not punish anyone but farmers. AFK'ers gain no SP/ISK from being afk and so lose nothing getting booted, the fact that they earned nothing during the period that got them booted shows on the record.
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Illuminaughty-696
Omega Risk Control Services
203
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 14:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Like that you are trying to come up with a solution but this doesn't seem to be it. Too many legitimate play styles to account for that this would inadvertently affect. |
Billi Gene
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 14:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Illuminaughty-696 wrote:Like that you are trying to come up with a solution but this doesn't seem to be it. Too many legitimate play styles to account for that this would inadvertently affect.
mostly i just sat down and quietly considered the elements to the problem.
WP and SP are incidental to the problem, they are the goal of the farmers for sure, but as a mechanic they have nothing to do with this particular exploit (apart from being the benefit of it).
Punishing logi by removing SP from repping anything other then enemy damage is not the best option. In fact, punishing reppers or pilots by forcing them into behavior other then what their roles are suited (inorder to gain SP/WP/ISK) is unfair.
Allowing Team Kills still requires a framework with which to reference for friendly fire being turned on... so what would that framework look like?
I don't standby my idea, other then as some sort of frame work. What are we as a player community prepared to see happen in order to force people to play the game instead of playing the system?
If it were known that there was an afk timer, people could adjust. Even the farmers would adjust, and my framework doesnt even really stop them from farming, it just stops them from being able to repper farm to the exclusion of all other activities, opening them up to combat and the possibility of losing assets.
Adjust the parameters, make a suggestion... anything.. just get the ball rolling before CCP decides to lower the SP cap even more (sort of thing)... |
Ghost-33
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 15:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Just reward -NO- SP, WP or ISK for any actions that are not in a decent proximity to any enemy. That way repairing anything away from the enemy in a safe area will give you nothing but if it needs to be done for team-play reasons people will still do it but the farmers will not. Doing anything around the fight or front-lines like repairing a vehicle in combat or picking up downed dusters will still net you the gains that come with the help.
Good/Bad?
Edit =
Or you could just have it so that anything done in any safe/restricted area has no gain involved. If the enemy cant get to you to knife you then you shouldn't get any points for what you are doing there. Sure some might say "but I flew/drove back here to be safe to repair my Dropship/tank!" Well too bad you wouldn't get any gains in exchange for the safety you chose. |
Ziero01
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
11
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 15:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
I think the simplest way to fix this problem is to completely removed SP/WP gains from repairing vehicles and structures that were damaged by friendly/non-enemy actions. Since the basic crux of this issue relies solely on these players staying back behind the safe zone, crashing vehicles into objects to damage them and then repairing them to gain absurd amounts of SP/WP, the simplest way to fix it is to prevent them from gaining anything for not actually being involved in combat. In the end, the only thing this change would hurt would be A) people who are terrible pilots and B) people abusing an obvious exploit. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 16:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ghost-33 wrote: Or you could just have it so that anything done in any safe/restricted area has no gain involved. If the enemy cant get to you to knife you then you shouldn't get any points for what you are doing there. Sure some might say "but I flew/drove back here to be safe to repair my Dropship/tank!" Well too bad you wouldn't get any gains in exchange for the safety you chose.
(emphasis mine) I'm a LogiBro and I fully support this idea. Thank you for the useful and constructive suggestion.
EDIT: This would also solve the "sniping from the MCC" and "sniping from within the red zone" issues that have been raised in other threads. |
Mira Adari
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
79
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 16:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ghost-33 wrote:Just reward -NO- SP, WP or ISK for any actions that are not in a decent proximity to any enemy. That way repairing anything away from the enemy in a safe area will give you nothing but if it needs to be done for team-play reasons people will still do it but the farmers will not. Doing anything around the fight or front-lines like repairing a vehicle in combat or picking up downed dusters will still net you the gains that come with the help.
Good/Bad?
Edit =
Or you could just have it so that anything done in any safe/restricted area has no gain involved. If the enemy cant get to you to knife you then you shouldn't get any points for what you are doing there. Sure some might say "but I flew/drove back here to be safe to repair my Dropship/tank!" Well too bad you wouldn't get any gains in exchange for the safety you chose.
So when I snipe someone from across the map in a pile of friendlies I get nothing from it? No SPs from doing anything in the redzone doesn't work, either. When your team is redlined, you would be unable to get SP or ISK so anyone would just stop playing once redlined. |
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Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 16:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
So the people doing this stuff are just repairing vehicles in a safe area? Well, how about only damage an enemy inflicts on a friendly vehicle provides points for repairing, and neutral damage due to vehicle decay, collisions, friendly fire, and so on don't provide any points? That'd end the entire thing with the least amount of effort, wouldn't it? |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 16:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mira Adari wrote:Ghost-33 wrote:Just reward -NO- SP, WP or ISK for any actions that are not in a decent proximity to any enemy. That way repairing anything away from the enemy in a safe area will give you nothing but if it needs to be done for team-play reasons people will still do it but the farmers will not. Doing anything around the fight or front-lines like repairing a vehicle in combat or picking up downed dusters will still net you the gains that come with the help.
Good/Bad?
Edit =
Or you could just have it so that anything done in any safe/restricted area has no gain involved. If the enemy cant get to you to knife you then you shouldn't get any points for what you are doing there. Sure some might say "but I flew/drove back here to be safe to repair my Dropship/tank!" Well too bad you wouldn't get any gains in exchange for the safety you chose. So when I snipe someone from across the map in a pile of friendlies I get nothing from it? No SPs from doing anything in the redzone doesn't work, either. When your team is redlined, you would be unable to get SP or ISK so anyone would just stop playing once redlined.
The other main battlefied role I play is sniper and I fail to see why sniping from beyond the redline is vital enough to warrant point gain. For ambush maps just remove the redzome completely and have start spawns be MCC and/or random. For skirmish maps not having any gains from within the redzone would benefit everyone because fewer players would be inclined to "dig in" within the redzone and fight rather than flank to claim objectives when getting pressed hard.
As far as I can see it's win all the way around, am I overlooking some compelling reason why sniping from within the red is something that must be preserved? If so please elaborate as to why.
Cheers, Cross |
Mira Adari
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
79
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 16:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:So the people doing this stuff are just repairing vehicles in a safe area? Well, how about only damage an enemy inflicts on a friendly vehicle provides points for repairing, and neutral damage due to vehicle decay, collisions, friendly fire, and so on don't provide any points? That'd end the entire thing with the least amount of effort, wouldn't it? It would not be the least effort, determining what damage was done by whom is trivial, but keeping track of that data is a different matter.
Incite teamwork/striving for victory by handing out a SP bonus for winning a match. (is it possible to have a signature in this forum? Or do i have to make that the name of my corporation? )
Cross Atu wrote:Mira Adari wrote:
No SPs from doing anything in the redzone doesn't work, either. When your team is redlined, you would be unable to get SP or ISK so anyone would just stop playing once redlined.
The other main battlefied role I play is sniper and I fail to see why sniping from beyond the redline is vital enough to warrant point gain. For ambush maps just remove the redzome completely and have start spawns be MCC and/or random. For skirmish maps not having any gains from within the redzone would benefit everyone because fewer players would be inclined to "dig in" within the redzone and fight rather than flank to claim objectives when getting pressed hard. As far as I can see it's win all the way around, am I overlooking some compelling reason why sniping from within the red is something that must be preserved? If so please elaborate as to why. Cheers, Cross
I am a sniper, too, and I absolutely hate fellow snipers that sit below the MCC instead of trying to get to an objective. Getting them to move their asses would be an absolutely good thing. But sometimes you are just fighting a losing battle. You are redlined and anyone that ventures outside is almost immediately put down. I was on both ends of this and there was absolutely no way for the redlined team to get a foot out of the redzone (that might change once people have earned enough SP/ISK to dare fielding dropships). Snipers everywhere to kill infantry, AVs and sometimes HAVs to deal with vehicles (I actually was both...a Sniper with AV grenades). When the redlined team doesn't even get SP for 'holding the line', why should they do it? They simply wait somewhere safe for the end of the battle or log out. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 16:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Farmers might be on the winning team though. Sure their team is disadvantaged but that doesn't guarantee a loss so in those matches they actually get more than they do presently for the same activities. And they'd suffer no loss of points from present when their team lost.
Unless you are proposing that teams get less than they do in the current build if they don't win in which case how would we avoid punishing players for having the misfortune of being teamed with the farmers? "Too bad just never play random" doesn't seem like quality game design and honestly even if everyone except the farmers left random why wouldn't the farmers just stay and continue to farm?
I'm all for promoting team play but to stop the farming the solution really must be removing the rewards specific to farming (i.e. making farming no longer valuable without imposing any further burdens on other players) |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 16:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mira Adari wrote:Fivetimes Infinity wrote:So the people doing this stuff are just repairing vehicles in a safe area? Well, how about only damage an enemy inflicts on a friendly vehicle provides points for repairing, and neutral damage due to vehicle decay, collisions, friendly fire, and so on don't provide any points? That'd end the entire thing with the least amount of effort, wouldn't it? It would not be the least effort, determining what damage was done by whom is trivial, but keeping track of that data is a different matter. Incite teamwork/striving for victory by handing out a SP bonus for winning a match. (is it possible to have a signature in this forum? Or do i have to make that the name of my corporation? ) Cross Atu wrote:Mira Adari wrote:
No SPs from doing anything in the redzone doesn't work, either. When your team is redlined, you would be unable to get SP or ISK so anyone would just stop playing once redlined.
The other main battlefied role I play is sniper and I fail to see why sniping from beyond the redline is vital enough to warrant point gain. For ambush maps just remove the redzome completely and have start spawns be MCC and/or random. For skirmish maps not having any gains from within the redzone would benefit everyone because fewer players would be inclined to "dig in" within the redzone and fight rather than flank to claim objectives when getting pressed hard. As far as I can see it's win all the way around, am I overlooking some compelling reason why sniping from within the red is something that must be preserved? If so please elaborate as to why. Cheers, Cross I am a sniper, too, and I absolutely hate fellow snipers that sit below the MCC instead of trying to get to an objective. Getting them to move their asses would be an absolutely good thing. But sometimes you are just fighting a losing battle. You are redlined and anyone that ventures outside is almost immediately put down. I was on both ends of this and there was absolutely no way for the redlined team to get a foot out of the redzone (that might change once people have earned enough SP/ISK to dare fielding dropships). Snipers everywhere to kill infantry, AVs and sometimes HAVs to deal with vehicles (I actually was both...a Sniper with AV grenades). When the redlined team doesn't even get SP for 'holding the line', why should they do it? They simply wait somewhere safe for the end of the battle or log out.
It may be a map by map issue, I have had this happen to teams I was on (or was added to during a battle in progress) and managed to use a LAV plus 'sprint fit' (scout suit with speed enhancers) to break out despite all the incoming fire. I then dropped an uplink out side the redline area of engagement and proceeded to have no one use it, not a single team member. They just kept respawning in the red even tho we were on an objectives map.
Once I'd think was a fluke but this happened to me several times last build, each time I'd get an uplink placed (sometimes after many deaths in the attempt) and it would see no use from my team.
I agree that gaining no WP when inside the red does give little incentive to hold the line when pushed back and creates a frustrating situation, but it doesn't seem any more frustrating than what I witness in games under the current iteration.
Again tho it may be map related as I've really only been in redlined games (on either side) in the larger mountainous maps.
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Mira Adari
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
79
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 16:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Farmers might be on the winning team though. Sure their team is disadvantaged but that doesn't guarantee a loss so in those matches they actually get more than they do presently for the same activities. And they'd suffer no loss of points from present when their team lost.
Unless you are proposing that teams get less than they do in the current build if they don't win in which case how would we avoid punishing players for having the misfortune of being teamed with the farmers? "Too bad just never play random" doesn't seem like quality game design and honestly even if everyone except the farmers left random why wouldn't the farmers just stay and continue to farm?
I'm all for promoting team play but to stop the farming the solution really must be removing the rewards specific to farming (i.e. making farming no longer valuable without imposing any further burdens on other players) Well...additionally to the win bonus I would reduce the amount of WP gained from individual actions (like only 15WP for a kill, assist also 15WP, others reduced accordingly). Since the farmers farm to maximize their personal gain, they would then start fighting for the team, since to maximize your gain, you have to win the match. Farmers would stop farming, lone wolves would start helping others instead of polishing their KDR, redzone snipers would (probably) start moving towards objectives, since just shooting dudes won't get you very far. When winning does matter (yeah, yeah..once we are in NullSec it does matter, but it should do so also in HiSec) people will start trying to win.
Sure, it is not perfect, but from all solutions I can think of, this is the best one.
Cross Atu wrote:Mira Adari wrote:Cross Atu wrote:
The other main battlefied role I play is sniper and I fail to see why sniping from beyond the redline is vital enough to warrant point gain. For ambush maps just remove the redzome completely and have start spawns be MCC and/or random. For skirmish maps not having any gains from within the redzone would benefit everyone because fewer players would be inclined to "dig in" within the redzone and fight rather than flank to claim objectives when getting pressed hard.
As far as I can see it's win all the way around, am I overlooking some compelling reason why sniping from within the red is something that must be preserved? If so please elaborate as to why.
Cheers, Cross
I am a sniper, too, and I absolutely hate fellow snipers that sit below the MCC instead of trying to get to an objective. Getting them to move their asses would be an absolutely good thing. But sometimes you are just fighting a losing battle. You are redlined and anyone that ventures outside is almost immediately put down. I was on both ends of this and there was absolutely no way for the redlined team to get a foot out of the redzone (that might change once people have earned enough SP/ISK to dare fielding dropships). Snipers everywhere to kill infantry, AVs and sometimes HAVs to deal with vehicles (I actually was both...a Sniper with AV grenades). When the redlined team doesn't even get SP for 'holding the line', why should they do it? They simply wait somewhere safe for the end of the battle or log out. It may be a map by map issue, I have had this happen to teams I was on (or was added to during a battle in progress) and managed to use a LAV plus 'sprint fit' (scout suit with speed enhancers) to break out despite all the incoming fire. I then dropped an uplink out side the redline area of engagement and proceeded to have no one use it, not a single team member. They just kept respawning in the red even tho we were on an objectives map. Once I'd think was a fluke but this happened to me several times last build, each time I'd get an uplink placed (sometimes after many deaths in the attempt) and it would see no use from my team. I agree that gaining no WP when inside the red does give little incentive to hold the line when pushed back and creates a frustrating situation, but it doesn't seem any more frustrating than what I witness in games under the current iteration. Again tho it may be map related as I've really only been in redlined games (on either side) in the larger mountainous maps. It is definitely depending on the map. The worse ones are the one with the towers left and right, when you are attacking from the north (near objectives C and D in the two buildings) and the one with three objectives, independent on attack direction. At least that are the ones where it happened to me. The ones with 5 objectives are too open, allowing for multiple paths to any given objectives, while it is also difficult to hold all 5 objectives. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 16:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mira Adari wrote:It would not be the least effort, determining what damage was done by whom is trivial, but keeping track of that data is a different matter.
Incite teamwork/striving for victory by handing out a SP bonus for winning a match.
How is keeping track of it anything like difficult? It'd be no different than keeping track of ammunition count for a weapon. Incredibly simple. All of these convoluted ideas are really overwrought, in my opinion. If you want to encourage team work, that's a separate issue. If you want to alter winning/losing rewards, that's a separate issue. If you want to stop people from boosting, all you need to do is make it so you only get points if you repair damage done by an enemy. Easy as that. |
Whispercrow
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
102
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 17:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
Too complicated.
Keeping track of 'sources' of damage is too complicated to bother with programming, and doesn't offer enough 'reward' for that effort.
The simplest solution is to only allow +points from Repairing stuff that is or is piloted by another player.
Run around smashing up your buggy and repairing it? Nada. Which is as it should be.
Now, can two people team up and one be a 'bum' that the other repairs? Sure, but the average SP-over-time, when divided by 2, makes this a much less likely option to be used. |
Mira Adari
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
79
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 17:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Whispercrow wrote: Too complicated.
Keeping track of 'sources' of damage is too complicated to bother with programming, and doesn't offer enough 'reward' for that effort.
The simplest solution is to only allow +points from Repairing stuff that is or is piloted by another player.
Run around smashing up your buggy and repairing it? Nada. Which is as it should be.
Now, can two people team up and one be a 'bum' that the other repairs? Sure, but the average SP-over-time, when divided by 2, makes this a much less likely option to be used. It IS currently done by teams of at least two players. One is driving, the other is repairing. With a defend order on the LAV, the repairer is getting bonus WP, while the squad leader (driver) also gets these bonus WP.
And yes, keeping track on who did what to an object is complicated. You'd have at least three variables per vehicle (total health, damage done by enemies, damage done by friendlies) instead of one (total health), which is a definite concern with limited memory. And that is for the simplest, least refined solution. Also, what about damage done by bumping against objects in the field? That is damage done by legitimate playing, and it should be rewarded to repair that. |
Whispercrow
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
102
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 17:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Poor driving should not be a reward. Use two counters... total HP and "Damage Done By Foe". Crashing, falling, getting hit by other cars, etc, all counts as 'normal' damage. Only eneny-dealt damage is in the second group.
Removing that 'defend' order for the vehicle seems to be relatively important as well. |
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Goric Rumis
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
80
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 17:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mira Adari wrote:Also, what about damage done by bumping against objects in the field? That is damage done by legitimate playing, and it should be rewarded to repair that. Except, of course, that current farming is done without friendly fire, so if you reward neutral-damage repairs you're still not solving the problem. Current teams are damaging their vehicles by ramming into things.
Which brings up a possibility: Maybe objects in the safe zone cause no damage to vehicles? Without friendly fire or environmental damage, these teams will need to move out of the safe zone to farm, where they will be vulnerable to enemy forces. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 18:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Goric Rumis wrote:Mira Adari wrote:Also, what about damage done by bumping against objects in the field? That is damage done by legitimate playing, and it should be rewarded to repair that. Except, of course, that current farming is done without friendly fire, so if you reward neutral-damage repairs you're still not solving the problem. Current teams are damaging their vehicles by ramming into things. Which brings up a possibility: Maybe objects in the safe zone cause no damage to vehicles? Without friendly fire or environmental damage, these teams will need to move out of the safe zone to farm, where they will be vulnerable to enemy forces.
While I dislike screwing with the laws of physics, I could support this. |
Goric Rumis
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
80
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 19:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
Skihids wrote:Goric Rumis wrote:Mira Adari wrote:Also, what about damage done by bumping against objects in the field? That is damage done by legitimate playing, and it should be rewarded to repair that. Except, of course, that current farming is done without friendly fire, so if you reward neutral-damage repairs you're still not solving the problem. Current teams are damaging their vehicles by ramming into things. Which brings up a possibility: Maybe objects in the safe zone cause no damage to vehicles? Without friendly fire or environmental damage, these teams will need to move out of the safe zone to farm, where they will be vulnerable to enemy forces. While I dislike screwing with the laws of physics, I could support this. Yeah, I don't like it for that reason either, but if it's possible to get hit by a friendly's forge gun without taking damage this makes about as much sense. And the more I think about it, the more I think it might be the only really viable solution for this problem.
I don't think we'd need to carry this mechanism over to nullsec if friendly fire is on, but then you might get corps making a tactical decision to have WP-farming squads in order to collect precision strikes and orbital bombardments. Not sure whether that would still count as an exploit: at least the entire team is (implicitly) agreeing to it, but you're still getting WP without putting yourself at risk. |
madd mudd
41
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 20:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ziero01 wrote:I think the simplest way to fix this problem is to completely removed SP/WP gains from repairing vehicles and structures that were damaged by friendly/non-enemy actions. Since the basic crux of this issue relies solely on these players staying back behind the safe zone, crashing vehicles into objects to damage them and then repairing them to gain absurd amounts of SP/WP, the simplest way to fix it is to prevent them from gaining anything for not actually being involved in combat. In the end, the only thing this change would hurt would be A) people who are terrible pilots and B) people abusing an obvious exploit.
I agree I run a logi with rep tool to heal my team mates and on occassion our vehicles in combat. If the damage was caused to a dropship or vehicle I was in due to friendly/environmental damage I would still repair it even if I wasn't gaining SP. Sure I might loose out a little WP/SP due to it, but if it stopped the farming I'd be all for it. SP farming is no risk just reward currently, so maybe if there was the addition of a condition that you had to be in fairly close proximity to the enemy then that could possibly be fair as well, but it would have to be set up properly.
edit... I am somewhat glad that this was figured out ahead of official release even though it sucks getting into a game with these ppl farming |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 02:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
Goric Rumis wrote:Skihids wrote:Goric Rumis wrote:Mira Adari wrote:Also, what about damage done by bumping against objects in the field? That is damage done by legitimate playing, and it should be rewarded to repair that. Except, of course, that current farming is done without friendly fire, so if you reward neutral-damage repairs you're still not solving the problem. Current teams are damaging their vehicles by ramming into things. Which brings up a possibility: Maybe objects in the safe zone cause no damage to vehicles? Without friendly fire or environmental damage, these teams will need to move out of the safe zone to farm, where they will be vulnerable to enemy forces. While I dislike screwing with the laws of physics, I could support this. Yeah, I don't like it for that reason either, but if it's possible to get hit by a friendly's forge gun without taking damage this makes about as much sense. And the more I think about it, the more I think it might be the only really viable solution for this problem. I don't think we'd need to carry this mechanism over to nullsec if friendly fire is on, but then you might get corps making a tactical decision to have WP-farming squads in order to collect precision strikes and orbital bombardments. Not sure whether that would still count as an exploit: at least the entire team is (implicitly) agreeing to it, but you're still getting WP without putting yourself at risk.
The other aspect that would make it more balanced within Null is that (AFAIK) the OB/PS are going to require players to use not just game mechanics so there's a whole added later of ISK cost and Corp/cross game logistics in play there just to employ them at all (thus harder to spam them). Because generally speaking a contested system in Null Sec isn't going to be a safe place to park your ship and shoot at a planet. |
Billi Gene
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 03:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
there is a problem with non-gains in red zone and enemy fire only systems..... it either limits or disadvantages play options and punishes players that under certain conditions have no alternatives.
Enemy Fire only systems do not take into account friendly fire in Nullsec(AFAIK), nor a friendly tank battering through a landed dropship or LAV. Repairing damage should never be penalized-unless it is all you are doing behind the redline.
Red Zone systems as nil earners also disadvantages players, of either certain playstyle or by situation. Exploits like MCC sniping aside, teams may get pushed back into their safe zone, pilots may park there to legitimately repair their vehicles before redeploying. By taking away the ability to gain SP/WP in the red zone, you are effectively creating a zerg game where combat is secondary to forcing a win by default.
And similarly to redzone as nil earner, proximity to enemies is also a limiting system. In this case it blatantly disadvantages snipers. When or if maps reach the 5km scale, snipes will start to come into their own, providing covering fire for ground advances, large area recon, area denial and clearing other snipers. AFAIK, and i have yet to log in today to test it....we can once again choose match type, so there should not really be any snipers on ambush maps.
aside from that .. how much ram would it take to loop a single parameter timer? Single parameter being, scored a hit on an enemy, either for your merc or a friendly you are repping.
The main difficulty would be finding the sweet spot for the cycle timer, when no hit has been scored.
but then that is only one way of dealing with this... open your mind... look at the behavior and how to limit it, the ideal is to create a system that does little to limit legitimate play styles and play. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 04:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
There are a few threads related to this subject but I don't believe I've mentioned this here (forgive me if I am in error).
What about the concept of simply decreasing impact/crash damage across the board? Are there any unintended negative consequences that spring to anyones mind?
I know it would make dropships and LAVs a bit more durable but 'on first blush' that doesn't seem like a major issue, and if it were harder to damage vehicles in the first place (via crash damage/ i.e. safe damage) then the fundamental value of farming would also decrease across the board.
Thoughts, improvements, suggestions? |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 04:25:00 -
[28] - Quote
Take away the red zone.
Also, have different kinds of point rewards. Skill points. War points. Repair points. Peace points. All with diminishing returns. Only War points should add up to allow for orbital strike.
Repairing crashed vehicle should not get you a ton of war points. But repairing shot at vehicles should accrue war points.
After you have crashed an LAV into a building or repaired a crashed LAV for the 4th time you probably know all you need to know about that particular activity and gotten what you can from the exercise. |
Billi Gene
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 04:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:There are a few threads related to this subject but I don't believe I've mentioned this here (forgive me if I am in error).
What about the concept of simply decreasing impact/crash damage across the board? Are there any unintended negative consequences that spring to anyones mind?
I know it would make dropships and LAVs a bit more durable but 'on first blush' that doesn't seem like a major issue, and if it were harder to damage vehicles in the first place (via crash damage/ i.e. safe damage) then the fundamental value of farming would also decrease across the board.
Thoughts, improvements, suggestions?
seems like an elegant deterrent to me.
Aighun wrote:Take away the red zone.
Also, have different kinds of point rewards. Skill points. War points. Repair points. Peace points. All with diminishing returns. Only War points should add up to allow for orbital strike.
Repairing crashed vehicle should not get you a ton of war points. But repairing shot at vehicles should accrue war points.
After you have crashed an LAV into a building or repaired a crashed LAV for the 4th time you probably know all you need to know about that particular activity and gotten what you can from the exercise.
when CCP announced Diminishing Returns to deter the repper farmers, this is exactly what i thought they were gonna do. With each category of point gain having its own DR, thereby forcing people to become more adaptive... instead they brought in a weekly SP Cap, and the farmers are just farming WP for the leaderboards |
v3k3v
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
24
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Posted - 2012.10.04 05:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
They should just turn down the volume on the damage from hitting a structure or team mates truck/ship/tank.. problem solved. |
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Aighun
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 05:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
v3k3v wrote:They should just turn down the volume on the damage from hitting a structure or team mates truck/ship/tank.. problem solved.
Though they may have to keep damge volume on high for drop ships. Drop ships used to be like fell hammers of the sky, crushing 10 to 20 enemies a match, simply by letting gravity do the work of flattening the opposing team...
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 08:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
Aighun wrote:v3k3v wrote:They should just turn down the volume on the damage from hitting a structure or team mates truck/ship/tank.. problem solved. Though they may have to keep damge volume on high for drop ships. Drop ships used to be like fell hammers of the sky, crushing 10 to 20 enemies a match, simply by letting gravity do the work of flattening the opposing team...
I wonder if there's an effective middle ground with this.
Or perhaps a hybrid solution, turn down the damage as far as functional without making dropships into a hammer and then add another aspect as well to further address this? |
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