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Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
401
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Posted - 2012.09.21 09:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
Mikel Dracionas wrote:Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Jotun Hiem wrote:Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Jotun Hiem wrote: Uhm... yeah. That's the whole idea. You get in close and use your speed to keep the guy from getting a bead on you.
Yeah!! That makes perfect sense! Real life from my City: Seven guys with AK 74s and in light police tactical gear went up against seven military police in full COMBAT tactical gear and using Squad Assault Heavy Weapons. Guess who died?? First, there are so many variables that come into play in combat situations like this that you can't make the call on gear alone. Luck, positioning, tactics, and general combat experience are major players in armed conflicts. Second, you're not comparing scouts with augmented agility and speed to juggernauts that are slower and tougher than average here; you're comparing two forces of relatively the same mobility, except one side has more armor and firepower. This is like comparing militia gear Assaults with sprint mods to Standard/Type 2 Assault with armor mods. One side simply has better equipment. A better comparison might be between a heavy infantryman (plate mail) with a halberd or poleaxe versus a lightly armored infantryman (leather armor) with a short-sword or a dagger. Both of these men are kitted out for in-the-field combat, unlike your men in light police armor, while fulfilling different roles. If the heavy infantryman can keep his opponent at a distance, then he has the distinct advantage of being out of his adversaries reach while wielding a potentially devastating weapon, but if the light infantryman closes the gap using his superior speed then suddenly the halberd is not nearly as effective (as the light infantryman is within the swing arc of the blade) and he now has the advantage, as he is armed for hand-to-hand combat while the heavy infantryman is not. Even if the heavy infantryman had a hand-to-hand weapon, such as a short-sword or dagger, you also have to remember than the light infantryman has the advantage in mobility, speed, and endurance. He is neither slowed down nor are his movements restricted in any way, unlike the heavy infantryman. Ummm no. The heavy infantryman just switches to a morningstar or bladed hammer and a few seconds later the light infantryman dies. In fact when it was heavy infantry versus light it was the heavy won in CQC. The only instances of light winning versus heavy was at a DISTANCE i.e. the French using bow and arrows to kill the heavy English infantry at a DISTANCE and NEVER in CQC. Thats why I an AGAINST the heavy using an AR or a sniper rifle as it is better suited to heavy weapons for AV or NON-precise weapons AKA pray and spray in CQC like the HMG. The Scout, logi and assault need be the only suits that can equip AR or sniper rifles as this provides definitive killing at distance roles for them and preserving the heavies role to be superior in CQC only. thats not always the case ive read and seen many cases that a fast mobile unit and bleed out a slower heavy armored unit take knights versus samurai the samurai won in many fights quick strike and dodge or parry quick strike dodge or parry rinse and repeat. on a second note scouts are fine as is and so is the heavies i belive the logi and assualt though need a slight armor and shield boost esp the logi
No. Try holding a machete to parry as someone swings a ten pound hammer at you and the result will be shattered bone the same as when the hammer meets a concrete wall that by the way is much better than a human face at absorbing hammer blows.
The Samurai armour is made to counter the sharp blade of the katanna. The plate armour of the English knight is made to counter the sharp point of the heavy knights sword. The English Knight can stab the Samurai since its armour is made to counter slicing and not heavy stabbing.
The Samurai has a problem since the katanna is not a heavy stabbing weapon.
Dead Samurai. |
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
401
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Posted - 2012.09.21 10:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
Rorek IronBlood wrote:
Here is what this thread taught me today. That people have a very outdated sense of roles and what they are. Nowhere does it say that I have to play the scout as a sniper, or some off-beat pansy who drops droplinks, and hides behind corners. It's not my fault you suck at aiming, or are ill equiped to fight against someone in close quarter combat. I bet some of you would tell me a woman's place is in the kitchen and at home being a mother and making more children. Seriously some of you have some out moded sense of direction. I do fine a spec-ops scout and I love knowing how angry you all get over it. Makes me laugh aloud. I bet someone in a tank cried once when they realized they got bombed by a scout with a swarm launcher. Yup. Let me tell ya'.
I can play any role I want so long as I the player can adapt to the dropsuit, and make said dropsuit do as I need it to. If I want to turn my heavy into an assault monster I will. If I want my assault to be a shield tanking heavy I can (minus the HMG or forge gun). If I want my logistics to be all anti-vehicle I certainly will. The list goes on. Some of you need to realize we're in the modern age. It's funny because, in real life LAV's can be armed with anti-tank weaponry and rip apart tanks. Go figure. If the passanger of an LAV can use weapons though get a heavy in an LAV armed with a forge gun or swarm launcher and rip through them all day.
This thread? Pointless.
The only thing good from this thread is the recognition that the 'heavy' still needs minor balancing and tweeks; and that the HMG needs something more then it does already. I do not play as a 'heavy', but heavies are my friends. They are like can openers. They open up vehicles and get all of the attention while I steal objectives, and take CRU's (Clone Reanimation Unit).
Seriously though in the end it comes down to the "player" being able to adapt, and overcome situations or obstacles. On the battlefield or otherwise. If you want to play the game a certain way that you find fun, but is not suited to your style then you have a problem. Overcome and adapt.
They tried that with light trucks versus tanks in Irak at Basra and at the Highway of Death. Guess who died??
The Game has a NONSENSE situation where a light suit can better withstand damage than a heavy suit. The same NONSENSE as a motorcycle and a truck crashing head on and yet the truck explodes and the motorcycle is undamaged??
NONSENSE!!
Oh but the heavy has a slower turning speed? NONSENSE!!
My small cat dozer and my very large cat dozer turn radius is the same speed. Both are bulldozers except one is much larger than the other.
Both take the same amount of time to turn from the excavation to the waiting dump trucks. The only variable is one of them can push a lot more dirt in a given direction. |
miahus
CrimeWave Syndicate
78
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Posted - 2012.09.21 11:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote: So yeah before you tell Ad Ski to think, how about you think first. CCP has made it so no person has two main weapons to allow for all around purposes
when did I tell him to think? stop trolling and read before you respond to an imaginary post...kittening ADD generation. |
Tarn Adari
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
157
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Posted - 2012.09.21 11:33:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:
Ummm no. The heavy infantryman just switches to a morningstar or bladed hammer and a few seconds later the light infantryman dies. In fact when it was heavy infantry versus light it was the heavy won in CQC.
The only instances of light winning versus heavy was at a DISTANCE i.e. the French using bow and arrows to kill the heavy English infantry at a DISTANCE and NEVER in CQC.
Thats why I an AGAINST the heavy using an AR or a sniper rifle as it is better suited to heavy weapons for AV or NON-precise weapons AKA pray and spray in CQC like the HMG.
The Scout, logi and assault need be the only suits that can equip AR or sniper rifles as this provides definitive killing at distance roles for them and preserving the heavies role to be superior in CQC only.
As soon as the swordsman is close enough for the heavy infantry to pull out his secondary weapon (if he even has one), he doesn't have the time to do so. He is dead before he reaches his belt.
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote: Yeah!! That makes perfect sense!
Real life from my City: Seven guys with AK 74s and in light police tactical gear went up against seven military police in full COMBAT tactical gear and using Squad Assault Heavy Weapons.
Guess who died??
This has nothing to do with Heavy vs Scout. You compare out-gunned, untrained civilians against professionals. Also, 7 vs 7 is not CQC, thats skirmish.
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:
No. Try holding a machete to parry as someone swings a ten pound hammer at you and the result will be shattered bone the same as when the hammer meets a concrete wall that by the way is much better than a human face at absorbing hammer blows.
You don't even try to parry a sledgehammer with a machete. That would be a very stupid thing to do. You DODGE the slow sledgehammer and put the machete in the opponents back...or at least I would do that...
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:
They tried that with light trucks versus tanks in Irak at Basra and at the Highway of Death. Guess who died??
The Game has a NONSENSE situation where a light suit can better withstand damage than a heavy suit. The same NONSENSE as a motorcycle and a truck crashing head on and yet the truck explodes and the motorcycle is undamaged??
NONSENSE!!
Oh but the heavy has a slower turning speed? NONSENSE!!
My small cat dozer and my very large cat dozer turn radius is the same speed. Both are bulldozers except one is much larger than the other.
Both take the same amount of time to turn from the excavation to the waiting dump trucks. The only variable is one of them can push a lot more dirt in a given direction.
The scout suit doesn't withstand damage better than a heavy, it EVADES damage. If you hit the scout, while he tries to get in close, he is dead. Seriously, when you are in an inherently CQC-unsuited heavy and let a scout with a shotgun come close to you, you are in trouble.
Also, scouts and heavies are not bulldozers...they are not light trucks or tanks...where do you pull all these strange and unfitting comparisons? |
War Wulf13
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2012.09.21 11:54:00 -
[35] - Quote
Direct quote cut and paste from CCPs own mouth:
"The Heavy dropsuit is a second-generation solution designed to withstand concentrated small arms fire and protect the wearer from the concussive, thermal, and impact forces of low-grade explosives. Additionally, its power-assisted exoskeleton facilitates usage of the heaviest caliber personal weapons. Every vital area of the wearer is protected by 25mm composite ceramic shell or high tensile steel plates, layered with impact absorbing, compressed carbon latticework. A secondary thermal dispersion membrane channels excess heat away from the point of contact, distributing it over a larger surface area and thereby lessening the potential damage. Superconductive veins of hybrid silver coat the outer layers and connect every piece of the armor to a grounding heat sink, dampening the harmful effects of direct fire electromagnetic weaponry. Heavy dropsuits lack the mobility of lighter suits, but this trade-off results in a defensive system that defies standard infantry conventions. No other classification of personal armor can claim to be able to stand toe-to-toe with enemy vehicles and survive."
So why does it feel like rice paper coupled with lead boots? |
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
401
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 12:53:00 -
[36] - Quote
War Wulf13 wrote:Direct quote cut and paste from CCPs own mouth:
"The Heavy dropsuit is a second-generation solution designed to withstand concentrated small arms fire and protect the wearer from the concussive, thermal, and impact forces of low-grade explosives. Additionally, its power-assisted exoskeleton facilitates usage of the heaviest caliber personal weapons. Every vital area of the wearer is protected by 25mm composite ceramic shell or high tensile steel plates, layered with impact absorbing, compressed carbon latticework. A secondary thermal dispersion membrane channels excess heat away from the point of contact, distributing it over a larger surface area and thereby lessening the potential damage. Superconductive veins of hybrid silver coat the outer layers and connect every piece of the armor to a grounding heat sink, dampening the harmful effects of direct fire electromagnetic weaponry. Heavy dropsuits lack the mobility of lighter suits, but this trade-off results in a defensive system that defies standard infantry conventions. No other classification of personal armor can claim to be able to stand toe-to-toe with enemy vehicles and survive."
So why does it feel like rice paper coupled with lead boots?
The problem is CCP introduced an ARTIFICIAL balance by makeing the heavy slow to turn, slow to evade and easy to kill.
When the reality is a larger frame human shaped exoskeleton has room for a larger powerplant and thus has MORE energy to turn faster, evade faster and more importantly soakup more damage(larger shields, faster recharge) than a lighter frame with less protection and a smaller power plant.
Its like CCP decided to put a small cat versus a much larger lion in a cage (CQC) and the winner is the cat?? HELL NO!! The much larger lion kills the smaller cat and eats it for lunch.
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TiMeSpLiT--TeR
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
326
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Posted - 2012.09.21 13:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
Scout DropSuit |
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
401
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 13:07:00 -
[38] - Quote
@Tarn Adari.
When a minigun shoots there is NO EVADE there is only DIE, DIED and DYING. And troops from long ago did not stupidly stand there as a pikeman killed them.
Thats what training was used for to teach what troops do what and the tactics to counter them so if they see a pikeman formation they have many minutes to prepare a counter of archers or spearmen or have the morningstars ready to use in an instant. And heavy troops were feared by light troops for the very reason that heavy troops tended to kill the light troops and then enter the conquered Cities and enjoy the women.
And my examples of shooting are from where I am at where ex military that joined the Cartels are at war with the regular military. So when I see a helicopter gunship split a truck with the bullet stream there is no evade there are only bodies. |
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
401
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 13:13:00 -
[39] - Quote
Sigh......hopefully what was promised in the new build is delivered.
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Malzel Nidus
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
13
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Posted - 2012.09.21 13:29:00 -
[40] - Quote
What I think about what people think of a heavy is that they can ZOMG TANK ERRYTHNG or something of the sort. Its not true.
What heavies are ment for is all multitudes of ranges depending on what build status they take whether its Anti-Armor or Anti-Infantry. As far as I'm concerned, this topic is about Anti-Infantry so I'll state what I have to say as a classed Heavy.
Heavies, in a overall standard, aren't suitable for running around rushing like an assault dropsuit build or scout dropsuit build. They are meant for Defending and not to be running around. You are too slow for that and you will be knifed by a Nova Knife if you try to do it because they can get behind you and gank you like no tomorrow. As a heavy, you need to take in your environment and see what potential hard points you can cover up and get comfortable. With a Heavy Machine Gun, you can put down Considerable amounts of suppressive fire to make sure that the objective is safe and not captured by enemy light units.
For example, lets say you're in the Biomass Map on TDM. The first place I would suggest is the center building housing very thin areas of access. This is a great place for Heavies to get cradled up in and laying down fire down those thin access passages.
But, in an overall statement, that doesn't mean a heavy can't stand its own against infantry as a assault class heavy. I've done it before but its not easy because you can't move fast because of your armored plating. And I do agree that armor or shields on the heavy do need some kind of resistance buff because you can be taken out as easily as any other drop suit other than taking a bit more damage than it usually does. And its true as well. I've taken notice that the Heavy drop suit can be so easily taken out now that its not even viable to most people to even roll heavy because of its non-supportive (equipment wise) role it takes on the battlefield.
And as far as the Heavy Machine Gun goes, its good already. The Hit detection needs to be fixed slightly more for it and people with those need to be more damn accurate. I can drill through 2 people most of the time within one burst of my MLR-A Burst Heavy Machine Gun because it can be accurate if you use it right and not just spray everywhere in hopes of killing someone. And what most people have a tendency to do is aim at the target instead of aiming in the direction they are going, and it always works if someone is strafing if you aim ahead of them instead of AT them because these bullets move slower than the average assault rifle round.
_________
If you didn't want to read that wall-o-text, all I'm saying is that Heavies are to be taken as more of a defensive role rather than a role another class can take advantage of. However, I do believe that the heavy needs some kind of resistance buff of some kind because they move so slow but can be taken out almost as easy as a assault suit only with additional armor. |
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Tarn Adari
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
157
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Posted - 2012.09.21 14:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:@Tarn Adari.
When a minigun shoots there is NO EVADE there is only DIE, DIED and DYING. And troops from long ago did not stupidly stand there as a pikeman killed them.
Thats what training was used for to teach what troops do what and the tactics to counter them so if they see a pikeman formation they have many minutes to prepare a counter of archers or spearmen or have the morningstars ready to use in an instant. And heavy troops were feared by light troops for the very reason that heavy troops tended to kill the light troops and then enter the conquered Cities and enjoy the women.
And my examples of shooting are from where I am at where ex military that joined the Cartels are at war with the regular military. So when I see a helicopter gunship split a truck with the bullet stream there is no evade there are only bodies. You alegory still doesn't fit. 7 vs 7 is not CQC and that were not scouts vs heavies. That was a skirmish between two uneven groups. In fact none of your allegories work...gunships, tanks, bulldozers...that has nothing to do with the heavy vs scout debate, so please stop using them, until you find a fitting one...
You first have to aim at me before you can kill me with your HMG. But in general, you see me too late, and by the time you turned to fight me, you are dead (if the hit detection plays along...). But if you happen to see me early enough, when I am still at a distance, I am toast, because, and read this carefully, YOU ARE A BEAST AT MID RANGE WITH YOUR HMG. But in CQC, when I am literally standing next to you (probably because I flanked you, or snuck up from behind), you stand no chance.
Regarding pikemen...your heavy is the pikeman dying, my scout is the swordsman killing you from behind. If you don't keep me at bay with your pike, you are dead before you can draw your secondary weapon. Yes, heavy infantry tended to win against light infantry, but those who didn't keep the light infantry at range, didn't win. Again: A HEAVY IS A BEAST AT MID RANGE. As long as I am unable to reach you, you have the upper hand. As soon as you let me come in close, you are toast.
Also, there is this little thing called Game Balance. You want the heavy to be the fastest, best armored and able to use the biggest guns, but this will not happen. This must not happen, or we have the same situation as with the solopwnmobiles. You know rock-paper-scissors? That is the base for just about EVERY SINGLE GAME that has any kind of conflict as a game element. Every unit is good against some, bad against others. Your heavy can take a beating and deals tons of damage, but he is slow and against a CQC-scout or a sniper at long range he is dead. At mid range he can kill just about everyone, infantry and armor. My scout is the polar opposite of your heavy. At mid range, I am useless. I can't shell out the damage of your HMG and I can be hit at all. But I am fast and I can try to avoid getting hit. CQC is my profession. (The assault is somewhere between heavy and scout. he is not as good as the heavy in mid range, and not as good in CQC as the scout, but better at CQC than the heavy and better at mid range than the scout...and the best at long ranges, with a sniper rifle...the logi is roughly a downgraded assault, with additional CPU/PG and equipment. In a 1 vs 1 situation he has the same role against heavies and scouts like the assault, but against an assault he loses)
If you take away CQC from scouts, I am literally useless. There is nothing a scout can do, that an assault, heavy or logi can't do better, except getting in close.
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mikegunnz
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
425
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Posted - 2012.09.21 14:38:00 -
[42] - Quote
This thread has devolved from a discussion on balancing different suits, their potential roles, etc... Into one of those stupid comparisons withreal life.
Here's a tip, comparing game to RL is always stupid.
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Beld Errmon
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
479
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Posted - 2012.09.21 14:53:00 -
[43] - Quote
If you have trouble killing scout suits its because you can't aim/lag shoot, they are weak and good players rip them to bits in seconds, good players also manage to make the heavy suits viable in CQC, but I do agree they generally need some love I wouldn't support giving them a slot for ARs because heavy suits sporting ARs annoy me, in general though heavy suits can't dodge worth a damn and that makes their fairly high HPs worthless against assaults. |
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