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Tarn Adari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
157
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Posted - 2012.09.20 17:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:
Cool.
EXCEPT.
You are NOT! supposed to be a CQC monster to be feared in a SCOUT suit thats the HEAVYs job!!
The scout is supposed to be a capture point, dropuplink and kill fast monster from sniper perch to sniper perch.
Heavies have NO place in CQC whatsoever...they are supposed to be good at mid ranges against multiple opponents (HMG) or against vehicles. CQC needs fast characters that can outmaneuver the opponent. A heavy can't even turn fast enough to track a Scout circling around him, and that's the way it should be.
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Tarn Adari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
157
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 18:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yeah...a heavy, tanked with shield and armor, with a HMG and a sniper rifle. I think that would be a fair build. Or make it Forge Gun and Assault Rifle. Oh...and of course Thukker Grenades. Without them that heavy wouldn't stand a chance.
If your heavy can have a H and L weapon, I want my scout to have a shotgun and a sniper rifle. I can't possibly be expected to choose between CQC and long range.
Oh...and just for the record...that Scouts can use all light weapons does NOT make the Assault pointless. My sniper uses a Assault suit. I don't need the mobility of the scout when stalking the edges of the map, or high places, and the additional CPU/PG and EHP help tremendously against other snipers. I can survive shots that would take out my scout without even needing a headshot, retreat and heal (armor repair in LP slot) and then find a new spot and try to kill the other sniper. I also wouldn't use a Scout Suit for mid range (assault rifle). I would be too vulnerable, since my speed doesn't help me that much (my opponent doesn't have to turn as fast to track me as he has in CQC).
CQC is really the only usable spot for a Scout suit atm (and reaching objectives fast). Every other distance would be better filled with an Assault or Heavy. |
Tarn Adari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
157
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 20:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Tarn Adari wrote:Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:
Cool.
EXCEPT.
You are NOT! supposed to be a CQC monster to be feared in a SCOUT suit thats the HEAVYs job!!
The scout is supposed to be a capture point, dropuplink and kill fast monster from sniper perch to sniper perch.
Heavies have NO place in CQC whatsoever...they are supposed to be good at mid ranges against multiple opponents (HMG) or against vehicles. CQC needs fast characters that can outmaneuver the opponent. A heavy can't even turn fast enough to track a Scout circling around him, and that's the way it should be. Yes, yes! of course! In CQC the light, fast and manuverable LAV needs to win out over the slower and heavier HAV when going nose to nose. Yep! that makes perfect sense!!
We are talking infantry...anyway...if the HAV has no additional gunners, and the LAV pilot is skilled enough to circle the HAV faster than it can turn its turret, then yes, the LAV should win.
But where do you see the Scout suit, if not in CQC? Sniping? An Assault suit is by far superior in that field (until they bring in infantry cloaks for scout suits).
Where do you get the delusion that a heavy should be suited for CQC? A heavy is a slow, lumbering hulk, tanked up to take a beating, perfect for mid range against multiple infantry (with his HMG) or against vehicles (with a forge gun). |
Tarn Adari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
157
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 11:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:
Ummm no.
The heavy infantryman just switches to a morningstar or bladed hammer and a few seconds later the light infantryman dies.
In fact when it was heavy infantry versus light it was the heavy won in CQC.
The only instances of light winning versus heavy was at a DISTANCE i.e. the French using bow and arrows to kill the heavy English infantry at a DISTANCE and NEVER in CQC.
Thats why I an AGAINST the heavy using an AR or a sniper rifle as it is better suited to heavy weapons for AV or NON-precise weapons AKA pray and spray in CQC like the HMG.
The Scout, logi and assault need be the only suits that can equip AR or sniper rifles as this provides definitive killing at distance roles for them and preserving the heavies role to be superior in CQC only.
As soon as the swordsman is close enough for the heavy infantry to pull out his secondary weapon (if he even has one), he doesn't have the time to do so. He is dead before he reaches his belt.
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:
Yeah!!
That makes perfect sense!
Real life from my City:
Seven guys with AK 74s and in light police tactical gear went up against seven military police in full COMBAT tactical gear and using Squad Assault Heavy Weapons.
Guess who died??
This has nothing to do with Heavy vs Scout. You compare out-gunned, untrained civilians against professionals. Also, 7 vs 7 is not CQC, thats skirmish.
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:
No.
Try holding a machete to parry as someone swings a ten pound hammer at you and the result will be shattered bone the same as when the hammer meets a concrete wall that by the way is much better than a human face at absorbing hammer blows.
You don't even try to parry a sledgehammer with a machete. That would be a very stupid thing to do. You DODGE the slow sledgehammer and put the machete in the opponents back...or at least I would do that...
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:
They tried that with light trucks versus tanks in Irak at Basra and at the Highway of Death.
Guess who died??
The Game has a NONSENSE situation where a light suit can better withstand damage than a heavy suit.
The same NONSENSE as a motorcycle and a truck crashing head on and yet the truck explodes and the motorcycle is undamaged??
NONSENSE!!
Oh but the heavy has a slower turning speed?
NONSENSE!!
My small cat dozer and my very large cat dozer turn radius is the same speed.
Both are bulldozers except one is much larger than the other.
Both take the same amount of time to turn from the excavation to the waiting dump trucks.
The only variable is one of them can push a lot more dirt in a given direction.
The scout suit doesn't withstand damage better than a heavy, it EVADES damage. If you hit the scout, while he tries to get in close, he is dead. Seriously, when you are in an inherently CQC-unsuited heavy and let a scout with a shotgun come close to you, you are in trouble.
Also, scouts and heavies are not bulldozers...they are not light trucks or tanks...where do you pull all these strange and unfitting comparisons? |
Tarn Adari
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
157
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 14:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:@Tarn Adari.
When a minigun shoots there is NO EVADE there is only DIE, DIED and DYING.
And troops from long ago did not stupidly stand there as a pikeman killed them.
Thats what training was used for to teach what troops do what and the tactics to counter them so if they see a pikeman formation they have many minutes to prepare a counter of archers or spearmen or have the morningstars ready to use in an instant.
And heavy troops were feared by light troops for the very reason that heavy troops tended to kill the light troops and then enter the conquered Cities and enjoy the women.
And my examples of shooting are from where I am at where ex military that joined the Cartels are at war with the regular military.
So when I see a helicopter gunship split a truck with the bullet stream there is no evade there are only bodies.
You alegory still doesn't fit. 7 vs 7 is not CQC and that were not scouts vs heavies. That was a skirmish between two uneven groups. In fact none of your allegories work...gunships, tanks, bulldozers...that has nothing to do with the heavy vs scout debate, so please stop using them, until you find a fitting one...
You first have to aim at me before you can kill me with your HMG. But in general, you see me too late, and by the time you turned to fight me, you are dead (if the hit detection plays along...). But if you happen to see me early enough, when I am still at a distance, I am toast, because, and read this carefully, YOU ARE A BEAST AT MID RANGE WITH YOUR HMG. But in CQC, when I am literally standing next to you (probably because I flanked you, or snuck up from behind), you stand no chance.
Regarding pikemen...your heavy is the pikeman dying, my scout is the swordsman killing you from behind. If you don't keep me at bay with your pike, you are dead before you can draw your secondary weapon. Yes, heavy infantry tended to win against light infantry, but those who didn't keep the light infantry at range, didn't win. Again: A HEAVY IS A BEAST AT MID RANGE. As long as I am unable to reach you, you have the upper hand. As soon as you let me come in close, you are toast.
Also, there is this little thing called Game Balance. You want the heavy to be the fastest, best armored and able to use the biggest guns, but this will not happen. This must not happen, or we have the same situation as with the solopwnmobiles. You know rock-paper-scissors? That is the base for just about EVERY SINGLE GAME that has any kind of conflict as a game element. Every unit is good against some, bad against others. Your heavy can take a beating and deals tons of damage, but he is slow and against a CQC-scout or a sniper at long range he is dead. At mid range he can kill just about everyone, infantry and armor. My scout is the polar opposite of your heavy. At mid range, I am useless. I can't shell out the damage of your HMG and I can be hit at all. But I am fast and I can try to avoid getting hit. CQC is my profession.
(The assault is somewhere between heavy and scout. he is not as good as the heavy in mid range, and not as good in CQC as the scout, but better at CQC than the heavy and better at mid range than the scout...and the best at long ranges, with a sniper rifle...the logi is roughly a downgraded assault, with additional CPU/PG and equipment. In a 1 vs 1 situation he has the same role against heavies and scouts like the assault, but against an assault he loses)
If you take away CQC from scouts, I am literally useless. There is nothing a scout can do, that an assault, heavy or logi can't do better, except getting in close.
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