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Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.09.12 02:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
So earlier saw a tank whiner declaring a HAV having 6k shileds in a buffer setup and I went that dont sound right at all did some check up and found out he/she was way off as the bare bones unfitted sagaris almost had more EHP than he/she stated.
So did the math in a reasonable best guessing way we can do it for now.
Skills needed Electonics V - 25% more CPU (broken not applied) Engineering V - 25% more Powergrid (broken/not applied) Engineering Upgrdes V - 25% less CPU use per powergrid Module (broken?) Shield Adaption V - 15% less CPU use per Shield Amplifier Shield Managment V - 25% more shields Shield Operations V - 15% more shield recharge rates Shield Upgrades V - 15% less CPU use per shield module (broken?) Mechanics V - 25% more armor (currently bugged) Armor Upgrades -15% less PG per armor module.(broken?) Of course HAV III and the sorts but nobonuses from them.
So now that we got our skills stated lets move on.
Math over all and how its counted and coverted in Dust 514.
One example shields. In eve online the base generator of shields is time. However testing proves this isnt the case, Dust 514 shield recharge base is per second so thats good news for everyone not in tanks.
Another next issue that comes to mind since we are aware of is stacking penalty in Eve which is S(n) = 0.5^[((n-1) / 2.22292081) ^2] where N = the number of modules. This has been recently confirmed the same penalty curve for dust 514.
Sagaris w/ max support skills 3900 shields 5200 EHP shields when [1/(1-0.25{natural resists on hull}) * 3900{base shields w/o reistance}]) 1000/1250 (bugged) 27.6 shields a second (EHP repaired is 37.75 shields a second) 141.3 second shield recharge time or 188.4 EHP a second 437.5 CPU 2300 PG 5 highs 3 lows
So there is our base line Sagaris. Now lets slap some modules on it!
MAX Sagaris + DCU+ AMPx2 + LSEx2 + PDU x3(best stuff) 8972 Shields (Management 25% + 7% PDU x3 (shields hp is not penalized) +LSE x2) 25% Hull + 14% DCU +24% AMPx2(penalty is suggested to be bugged) =45% resists (which unfouruntately are hidden stats) EHP 16,312 1000/1250 armor (bugged) 30 shields a second (EHP repaired is 55 shields a second) 220.5 second shield recharge time 177.4 CPU 1103 GRID PDU x3 7% Shield HP, PG, and Shield Gen DCU 14% resists F-S3 Shield Amp 23% resists x2 HAW ES +2185 shields x2
Now then when you shot a Sagaris its not the 8972 shields going down no its the 16,312 number going down in a sense more easily understood when applying resisted damage
So taking Gastun's Forge Gun it does about 1000 damage with nerf then Weaponry V bonus reapplied. Then we combine this with 3 heavy weapon complex upgrades, this results in a measly 14% increase total and to not make things so desperate lets add proficency 5 for 10% more damage.
So our last damage looks like 1240 damage per 1.5 seconds charge lets add about 0.6 seconds for rethumbing between shots which results in a magazine emptying out in about 16 seconds with +/- 1-2 seconds for human.
A Sagaris in this time can recover 825-935 Eshields during the duration almost nullifying one shot. So this results in an end damage of 6505 magazine damage.
A Sagaris travels about 20-30 meters a second and can cover the supposive 175 meter range (lets 2x this for full range) of the forge gun in 11 seconds to 17.5 seconds at most ish so this leaves oppertunity for 7 shots if you are lucky.
So in a flat land where the sagaris is just traveling by ignoring everything we find out that the best forge gun in the world isnt enough to kill this Sagaris.
In order to kill the Sagaris would require 3 forge gunners about with all Gastun's Forge gun and have a margin error to miss with 1 shot only.
Now the math upstairs of course is entirely questionable and wrong, but I strayed away from WCS (worst case scenario) numbers and calcuations which mostly uses eve online systems and tries to follow dust 514 math as closely as it allows and done some undercutting here and there such as applying 25% shield bonus from manamgent to base shields only thus any other multipliers where also counted spereately instead of individually. I also dont own a sagaris nor have skills for it so I couldnt shove fix and try it out. Also becuase they decided to hide speed again, bleh.
Thre is also a chance the fit is too tight and the main cannon and turrets included may not fit with this build. This build is also just random guessing a decent buffer fit. If I could see all the stats and owned the machine I could then further tweak twoards a more prefect build.
Just right now there are too many hidden variables and some stats are not updating or taking proper effect or outright lying about thier bonsues such as armor resistances.
However hopefully next build alot of things just get 'fixed' so hopefully we can get a better picture of what is OP and what has gotten to nerfed.
Things to note:
Bugged modules are getting fixed, tank modules are getting a balance pass
Velocity is being added so it can be a skilled trait. Followed by it being effected by electronic warfare.
Some (read again Some) of the AV nerfs are being undone. Forge gun range/damage and launcher range are the two likely suspects, I do not expect AV grenades to be un-nerfed in damage HOWEVER I expect them to be working instead of having 50% duds.
Weaponry getting nerfed from 25% at lvl 5 to 10% at lvl 5.
So... what I learn from this? My Excel-fu is rusty time to kick it back up into shape. My math is probably wrong. Its beta things are broken such as losing shields is highlighted green. CCP needs to seriously add more visible stats and fix things that are not updating. Cant really judge tanks now becuase things ARE broken. |
Lieutenant Kein
5
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Posted - 2012.09.12 02:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Electonics V - 25% more CPU Engineering V - 25% more Powergrid
I thought that these didn't affect vehicles. If they do, then they don't seem work for me. |
Shiro Mokuzan
220
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Posted - 2012.09.12 02:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
They're not supposed to, according to the skill descriptions. But I believe the next update they will affect vehicles. |
Lieutenant Kein
5
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Posted - 2012.09.12 02:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
If that is true, then the nerfs to tanks may not be enough. I guess time will tell.
BTW, I drive tanks fairly often, so I'm not saying that because I'm tired of getting killed by them. |
Kira Lannister
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
711
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Posted - 2012.09.12 02:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
derp |
slap26
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
462
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Posted - 2012.09.12 02:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lieutenant Kein wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Electonics V - 25% more CPU Engineering V - 25% more Powergrid
I thought that these didn't affect vehicles. If they do, then they don't seem work for me.
They don't work for me either. But in their descriptions it says they are for dropsuits only so it's not a bug |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.09.12 02:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Yeah updated the skill listing as being broken the upgrades I been told where questionable for all vehicle modules as well.
Also if you're shield based on time works like this
1000 shields 333 seconds = 3 shileds a second.
Add a LSE that adds 1000 shields
2000 shields 333 seconds = 6 shields a second.
Now toss in 2.5% peak around 30% of shields
and lower than 0.5 near 90-100% and 10%-1% and draw an arc averaging that out. to be near 6 shields a second over all precenatges and youll get something similar to eve online shileds.
Dust 514 luckily only does
2 shields a second is still 2 shields a second regardless on how much more shileds you add. |
EVICER
63
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Posted - 2012.09.12 03:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Now then when you shot a Sagaris its not the 8972 shields going down no its the 16,312 number going down in a sense more easily understood when applying resisted damage. Kudos thanks for doing the math on this Iron..I dont know how many people I said this to that the shield could take 17k before the driver has to hit the recharger...yeah its pretty nuts.
plus 1 |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.09.12 03:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Well the other way of doing this evicer is taking the 45% resists to damage and applying it to the forge gun damage so in reality you're only doing about... 682 damage instead. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
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Posted - 2012.09.12 04:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
If you want to calculate the EHP of any fit, here's the math: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am5BtW91ldk3dGIxcWRBVDM3NnJZQlIyVmpZbjBYNEE |
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Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
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Posted - 2012.09.12 04:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So earlier saw a tank whiner declaring a HAV having 6k shileds
Way to get subtly personal Iron - I appreciate that a lot mate.
Also, where are you getting three complex damage modifiers from? I run heavy frequently and struggle to fit more than one without having to sacrifice half of the fit...
I have no idea if you're supporting my argument or against it so it honestly doesn't matter - your math just coincides with mine at pretty much every angle you're just assuming that, by some form of convenience and optimism, that three forge gunners are ever going to have an opportunity to use the same exact fit, not get killed by one or more of the five tanks on field or hordes of infantry support, conveniently in a location that the tank cannot max speed (faster than a sprinting scout mind you) out of range and/or still have the perfect co-ordination to operate against said tank with Prototype/Officer fits.
You've got high hopes for them AV guys man, just saying. |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 04:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well the other way of doing this evicer is taking the 45% resists to damage and applying it to the forge gun damage so in reality you're only doing about... 682 damage instead.
Don't think you're taking into account Damage Controls and the Sagaris' base shield resistance which is increased from the Gunnlogi. |
TiMeSpLiT--TeR
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
326
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Posted - 2012.09.12 04:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
My prototype Breach Forge gun takes only 10 percent damage on a well fitted sagaris. The only time I destroy most tanks are the cheap ones that installs only the missile turret and basic repairs. |
HowDidThatTaste
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
2242
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 04:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ummm so tanks are overpowered
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Winscar Shinobi
Better Hide R Die
43
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Posted - 2012.09.12 05:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
Is there really a stacking penalty? Have yet to see one and I stack a lot. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.09.12 05:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:So earlier saw a tank whiner declaring a HAV having 6k shileds Way to get subtly personal Iron - I appreciate that a lot mate. Also, where are you getting three complex damage modifiers from? I run heavy frequently and struggle to fit more than one without having to sacrifice half of the fit... I have no idea if you're supporting my argument or against it so it honestly doesn't matter - your math just coincides with mine at pretty much every angle you're just assuming that, by some form of convenience and optimism, that three forge gunners are ever going to have an opportunity to use the same exact fit, not get killed by one or more of the five tanks on field or hordes of infantry support, conveniently in a location that the tank cannot max speed (faster than a sprinting scout mind you) out of range and/or still have the perfect co-ordination to operate against said tank with Prototype/Officer fits. You've got high hopes for them AV guys man, just saying.
First you forget this forum has short term memory disorder, in which you now blatently laid yourself in front of the road to get ran over.
Proto heavy drop the smg throw in a cpu upgrade.
and by no means am I propping you up.
As for the base reistances I have 25% + 14% + 24% + 24% = 45% under the working asumption that the Amps which the devs pointed out as being broken was meant in this manner. |
TiMeSpLiT--TeR
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
326
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 07:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
HowDidThatTaste wrote:Ummm so tanks are overpowered
More like the Forge gun is underpowered. I like how it was on the first build. It can stop a tank. |
Encharrion
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
104
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 07:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
I can't say I've seen my tank passively regenerate shields WHILE being shot, you might want to check if that is the case with vehicle shields. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 08:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Encharrion wrote:I can't say I've seen my tank passively regenerate shields WHILE being shot, you might want to check if that is the case with vehicle shields.
I know they regen fast enough to nullify an assault rifles or HMG damage. There might be a threshold that causes the 1.5 second pause. |
Dewie Cheecham
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
677
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 08:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Consider this Iron Wolf. A Proto Swarm has 6 grenades of 250 HP damage each, 4 swarms in a magazine, which it can probably fire at a rate of one per 2 seconds, i not faster.
That is about 6000 HP damage in one magazine, if the SL user is reasonably competent and manages to get them all on target, fired over perhaps 6-8 seconds.
That is without damage mods.
If you sit on a nanohive, by the time those first 4 swarms are out of the barrel, you'll be reloading to a new full mag. About 5 seconds later at worst, you are ready to let loose another 6000 HP.
So you can see that a squad of these should easily kill even a 16k EHP Sagaris. The question then becomes, why aren't you?
This is now, later the math will change. For instance, add the webbers that are coming later. Catch a Sagaris in one of those, and it won't even be able to take cover.
Still think Tanks are OP?
And your math uses stats that are known to NOT be applied yet. |
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Dewie Cheecham
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
677
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Posted - 2012.09.12 08:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Encharrion wrote:I can't say I've seen my tank passively regenerate shields WHILE being shot, you might want to check if that is the case with vehicle shields. I know they regen fast enough to nullify an assault rifles or HMG damage. There might be a threshold that causes the 1.5 second pause.
Oh, no, not one of those.
You want the bug from the last build back, that meant AR's could kill tanks?
I know, I know, this is the future, and the AR's are using plasma, yadda, yadda, yadda. Do you think these tanks are made of any material we know of today?
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Dewie Cheecham
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
677
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 08:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
TiMeSpLiT--TeR wrote:HowDidThatTaste wrote:Ummm so tanks are overpowered More like the Forge gun is underpowered. I like how it was on the first build. It can stop a tank.
Yes, but the second a tank aren't easily stopped by a your Forge Gun, or *gasp* the tank kills you before you can kill it, the tank is OP, right. It's not like your hand held gun weren't OP for being able to kill tanks that easily in the last build, right? |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 08:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dewie Cheecham wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Encharrion wrote:I can't say I've seen my tank passively regenerate shields WHILE being shot, you might want to check if that is the case with vehicle shields. I know they regen fast enough to nullify an assault rifles or HMG damage. There might be a threshold that causes the 1.5 second pause. Oh, no, not one of those. You want the bug from the last build back, that meant AR's could kill tanks? I know, I know, this is the future, and the AR's are using plasma, yadda, yadda, yadda. Do you think these tanks are made of any material we know of today?
Ill just be mean and tell you go fly a kite.
The simple fact is that the AR still does perform its damage against tanks. tanks however regen those shieds nearly instantly, |
Dewie Cheecham
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
677
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 08:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Dewie Cheecham wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Encharrion wrote:I can't say I've seen my tank passively regenerate shields WHILE being shot, you might want to check if that is the case with vehicle shields. I know they regen fast enough to nullify an assault rifles or HMG damage. There might be a threshold that causes the 1.5 second pause. Oh, no, not one of those. You want the bug from the last build back, that meant AR's could kill tanks? I know, I know, this is the future, and the AR's are using plasma, yadda, yadda, yadda. Do you think these tanks are made of any material we know of today? Ill just be mean and tell you go fly a kite. The simple fact is that the AR still does perform its damage against tanks. tanks however regen those shieds nearly instantly,
As they should. AR's should not be an issue, expecting them to (even slowly) eat us a tank shield or armour is just insane. |
fenrir storm
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
314
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Posted - 2012.09.12 09:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
Dewie Cheecham wrote:Consider this Iron Wolf. A Proto Swarm has 6 grenades of 250 HP damage each, 4 swarms in a magazine, which it can probably fire at a rate of one per 2 seconds, i not faster.
That is about 6000 HP damage in one magazine, if the SL user is reasonably competent and manages to get them all on target, fired over perhaps 6-8 seconds.
That is without damage mods.
If you sit on a nanohive, by the time those first 4 swarms are out of the barrel, you'll be reloading to a new full mag. About 5 seconds later at worst, you are ready to let loose another 6000 HP.
So you can see that a squad of these should easily kill even a 16k EHP Sagaris. The question then becomes, why aren't you?
This is now, later the math will change. For instance, add the webbers that are coming later. Catch a Sagaris in one of those, and it won't even be able to take cover.
Still think Tanks are OP?
And your math uses stats that are known to NOT be applied yet.
You forgot it has to be perfect , ideal situation for that to happen.
You forgot about the assaults shooting and hunting to protect there tank, also the tank isnt just going to sit there, one, two at max shots and the swarm launcher user is no more.
And therse's never a squad of AV player at the moment you may be get one , two max. |
mikegunnz
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
425
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 09:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Thanks for the number crunching IronWolf. It really is appreciated. Basically this tells us what we already knew through anecdotal evidence, just playing the game.
It takes SEVERAL AV ppl to take down a mid-level upgraded tank, and a HIGHYLY upgraded tank is damn near invincible.
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Dewie Cheecham
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
677
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 10:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
fenrir storm wrote:Dewie Cheecham wrote:Consider this Iron Wolf. A Proto Swarm has 6 grenades of 250 HP damage each, 4 swarms in a magazine, which it can probably fire at a rate of one per 2 seconds, i not faster.
That is about 6000 HP damage in one magazine, if the SL user is reasonably competent and manages to get them all on target, fired over perhaps 6-8 seconds.
That is without damage mods.
If you sit on a nanohive, by the time those first 4 swarms are out of the barrel, you'll be reloading to a new full mag. About 5 seconds later at worst, you are ready to let loose another 6000 HP.
So you can see that a squad of these should easily kill even a 16k EHP Sagaris. The question then becomes, why aren't you?
This is now, later the math will change. For instance, add the webbers that are coming later. Catch a Sagaris in one of those, and it won't even be able to take cover.
Still think Tanks are OP?
And your math uses stats that are known to NOT be applied yet. You forgot it has to be perfect , ideal situation for that to happen. You forgot about the assaults shooting and hunting to protect there tank, also the tank isnt just going to sit there, one, two at max shots and the swarm launcher user is no more. And therse's never a squad of AV player at the moment you may be get one , two max.
So, teamwork, protecting the tank = the TANK is OP?
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Gauder Berwyck
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
217
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Posted - 2012.09.12 10:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
I'm in both camps. Last build, I specced into tanks simply because I was tired of getting killed by tanks. I think the issue is more balanced than both camps want to admit. Yes, I can sit in my Sagaris in the middle of noobs shooting at me with militia stuff and not really worry, or I come across 3-4 AV guys and I have to run to keep the tank alive.
A sort of incremental increase in AV weapons damage might be the wisest choice if you ask me. +15% on militia stuff, +10 on standard and +5 on advanced and proto?
Either way, it's close but still not quite.... |
Tyas Borg
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 11:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
Where the hell is everyone getting this info from. As a tank driver with everything including the Black Ops, none of this rings true at all to me.
I can nowhere near take 16k damage before firing a booster, are you all really that insane to think this is the case?.
Also, where does it say anything about the Sag's "extra" resistance?!. It's not in the description and literally the only difference I find with the sag is an extra 600 shields, an extra low slot and slightly better regen. You said yourself you don't even own one so how can you state "facts" about it like that?. I've noticed no difference at all except 4 more regen, the extra slot, 600 more shields and an extra million price tag.
My fitting for gunnlogi has 2*25% resistances, 14% damage control, a heavy shield extender and a heavy booster. The other slots have to have PG expansions and I'm still limited to what rail I can fit and have to nerf the smaller turrets. This fit comes in at 5109 shields, (working from memory but it's about that). So that's about a 59-60% resist on 5109. By my math that's more like 7.5K roughly including restances, combine in the booster which does 300 per pulse ending in a total of about 1.5K over 10-15 secs?.
Your telling me a swarm or forge can't out DPS that?. Your insane tbh.
Lets take a look at my Sagaris fit. This has exactly the same fit except with the extra low slot I'm allowed a CPU boost to fit better guns. The Sagaris fit comes in at 5609 or about that, (again working from memory). That's again about 8k with resistance maybe a tad more.
Where the hell are you guys getting 16K hp from?!. If you fit a passive fit, you can't extend shields that high to last that long. If you go passive with shield extenders then sure you have more shields, but a lot less resistance. If you go with a combo of all three like my build, you get what I explained above.
I've driven tanks in all builds since the pre-e3 build. I'm quite confident I know what's going on and these so called "numbers" don't equal what I experience on the battlefield.
For example two guys with Forge guns last night worked together and managed to obliterate my Black Ops on their own. I figured it must be my Chakram setup being crap, (which tbh it is), so deployed my Sagaris. They still chewed through it. So I lost two proto HAV's in one match to two guys. So yeah, I'm really sure all these numbers and whines about AV being crap are just people who cba to ACTUALLY SPEC INTO AV!!!.
If anything from my experience last night, it opened my eyes to how devastating AV is in it's current state when not using cheap milita crap then whining it wont kill anything.
I'd love to see some dev info on what the HAV's are currently doing. The descriptions just aren't right at all. Also with 90% of the vehicle skills not actually working we're left even more in the dark as to what is actually going on yet. Yet we still have people whining about something they know nothing about.... |
Tyas Borg
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2012.09.12 11:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Just realised my math is a bit out with the resistances lol, it's still not 16K or anywhere near whatever build you use. |
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