People hate on snipers because of those matches where the whole enemy team decides to snipe. (Or your team does and you can't get any backup while capping.)

I like to pull the rifle out for counter sniping and thinning out teams that crowd around supply depots in ambush. I've barely put any points into it, but can still take out 90% of suits in two shots or less with a damage mod.

What I want to know is why the vast majority of snipers stay perfectly still and aim down their scopes constantly. You guys are ridiculously easy to sneak up on. I usually get too impatient and move to a new position long before anyone can climb up behind me.

First, the need to write this (the original op-piece) is born out of a severe hatred that I sense out there for the class in general. Filter through the forums and read what people say. Just because you don't have a tactic to deal with a long range damage dealer, doesn't mean they should be redesigned to meet your exacting specifications. Saying that you shouldn't need a sniper to deal with a sniper doesn't say a whole lot about what you know about snipers, sad to say.

Agreed that sniper getting sniped is a sign of a bad sniper. Being able to utilize cover effectively is the first lesson in proper, long range sniping.

Because CCP's minimap radar doesn't always register someone sneaking up behind a sniper when out on the field. Have you spent any time out there with a rifle? Or are you in the party who hates on snipers without ever trying to actually be one?

Agreed about LAVs, it's a good point.

Agreed about tanks, it's all about cover. I've dodged many a tank.

Nobody can snipe the pilot out man... what are you on? Do you even play the same game as me? I snipe the gunners.

It's the job of every soldier to recognize the sound of a sniper round. Don't you hear it? Or are you too busy paying attention to other things in the environment to hear it? If you're not wearing enough shield/armor, and get killed in one hit with no logi... then whose fault is it? It's not CCP's, and it isn't mine.

My fit costs me quite a bit more than that and hurts every time I die. The 'real threats' you're talking about are the crap militia snipers who die 7 times a round and get like 5 kills. At best, with a charge rifle, you're lucky to get 10. What? Is an assault rifle at close range need to be effective at long range too? I'm not sure what you're suggesting here, but snipers are long range damage dealers. You want easy targets in front of your face with low armor/shields to mow through? I don't know what you're getting at with that point, but I don't like where it's going. Clarify if you like.

Then hunt the snipers down. I mean c'mon, you're making it too easy on snipers.

Agreed on the charge rifle, it should be a distance related weapon.

I can't agree with this infinity. Yesterday Edrot Or'vana and Frank A and myself were on the same team. I joined half way in and I suspect that could have been why Ed'rot was sniping as when we are on the same team he will usually run assault. Frank A is fairly newish to me as a sniper so I can't say I know much about him except he is a damn good counter sniper. The end of that game Edrot 25-0,Frank A was 21-0 and myself at 17-0. All 3 of us on top. Kills were flowing only because they had noob snipers on that team. I'm surprised there were no 'snipers are op' after that game.

Whenever we are faced against each other ALL of our kills drop significantly. This happens 10 times a day. Don't only take my word for it. Ask them yourself. We get better everyday because we hunt each other and no one else. The only reason those 2 guys aren't above me for kd is because they play with all the classes much more than me. A game I came out of right now had someone called hat tata in it. I killed him as an assault,he returned with a ishukone and killed me twice and spent the rest of the game hunting me. I ended up going 8-2. First time I have died twice in a game since Edrot made me go 3-4. The only negative game I have had this build.


The other 2 people to double gank me in game are here with us Sha and Tony and the one missing from this thread is Tyas. I like the fact that my major failures have been against them. It makes my head big. Can't forget a shoutout to x-darktemplar-x Heavy. The man that will cross a map take 3 bullets to the face and laugh while gunning you down with his gastun mini gun. I dare you to twitch straff him. He is my death dealer. Damn I nearly forgot shakaaal6666. Another heavy that doesn't give a crap about snipers.

Those people I have mentioned make me and any other sniper look far from overpowered. I wish they would come and speak on this topic. I play against them constantly and they all have my respect. Especially edrot and frank. If they agreed with you,I would be willing to re look my stance with you infinity and sniper being overpowered. Not that it means anything to you I am sure.

So why didn't you reposition yourself so that you were safe from the enemy snipers and help your team take objectives instead of dueling? The thing countering you in that game was yourself. You decided to go hunting the other snipers rather than shooting enemy infantry. In my own experience, if an enemy sniper seems to get a few kills I'll pop up now-and-then to see if he's exposed and I can kill them, but otherwise I'll simply position myself somewhere safe and wipe out the enemy team's infantry like normal. I've never felt myself constrained in any significant way by another sniper.

So why didn't you reposition yourself so that you were safe from the enemy snipers and help your team take objectives instead of dueling? The thing countering you in that game was yourself. You decided to go hunting the other snipers rather than shooting enemy infantry. In my own experience, if an enemy sniper seems to get a few kills I'll pop up now-and-then to see if he's exposed and I can kill them, but otherwise I'll simply position myself somewhere safe and wipe out the enemy team's infantry like normal. I've never felt myself constrained in any significant way by another sniper.

It's called cover.

All those flakes sitting around in the infamous volcanic basin map are there for a reason, and that reason is not to climb up and snipe from them. (Unless you enjoy being effortlessly picked off by Tactical ARs.) If you are running in a straight line out in the open, you might as well paint a bullseye on your helmet.

I have over 1700 kills as a sniper with a KDR (please don't hate me for bringing that up) of 5.83. Generally speaking, per match, I walk away with 6 kills for each death. I'm around 115 on the Leaderboards if you'd like to fact check my assertion.

I'll join that admission, I tried to in a previous post somewhat without coming out and saying it directly. I suppose the reason I reacted the way I did was the severity of Tony's initial remark without posting any well thought out counter argument.

Rank, if you guys would have me in your clan post-launch, I'd be happy to join. Also happy to do any grouping now. I promise I'm not so serious outside of a serious debate. I am US TZ though.

Ambush maps I contribute a lot 95% of the time, but skirmishes can be hit or miss. Depends on what the hot objective is... I try to readjust but that can take quite some time and by the time I get repositioned, the action might be at the objective I left.

I try to find positions where I can cover at least two objectives. Usually A and D on the pipe/tower map, and A E and D on the green city maps, and I can cover A, most of B, and C on the map with the spike rocks and the tower at B. Again, if the action moves outside of my line of sight it can take some time to readjust and that is difficult to do. Having a logistics on stand by with an LAV would be a huge boon.

Anyway, food for thought. I know you retracted the invite but I thought I'd put it out there that there was some interest on my end. My reading comprehension fail kind of burned me though.

Lol no bridges burnt here. The more I hear contrabanjoe on the planetary response channel,the more I am inclined to believe I'm going to let my clan be absorbed by his corporation or whatever he starts. His tactics over this last weeks corp battles were amazing. Even if we actually faced a descent team they would have been spanked.

Lol my main reason though is he didn't even ask if he could lead us. He just took control of our team of killers and was shouting orders. Without a doubt the most fun I have had in this beta. Can't wait for full team grouping. Then true op things can start showing themselves and fun time will be here.

I would invite you and give you the password to that uvt channel but its not mine to give. Will ask him if he minds more people coming in. Its not a corp right now just people grouping and talking to each other about the game. Will get back to you in game.

That's your experience though. If people didn't feel constrained, there wouldn't be such an outcry against the sniper class.

People are scared to run around the battlefield because of that powerful bullet coming from the shadows. That's the way it ought to be on a violent, dangerous battlefield.

If you're targeting a sniper because he's got a few kills then you're effectively counter sniping, even if it's with an AR or whatever. You're still counter sniping, yet you say it's terrible advice. Which is it man?

You do it because it's the effective way to deal with a sniper. You say it's terrible, but how else should it be done? From what you've written, your solution is that CCP should force snipers to the front line. Where the HMG, AR, and tanks can rip them to shreds. That's what I'm reading.

I think this is where you and I will differ for ever. I see a big name on that other team and my kill rate goes down. My sole purpose is to find that person and shut their game down. So what if I die a few times. I have had so many mountain goating trips I have 4000 lives in the pocket. I learn nothing from hiding from these people. If tony hasn't killed me so many times face to face he would be able to call me a chicken and he would be right. As you say we are always killing from so far away. Go up to people and say hi. Its not all about reaching out and touching someone.

What a shame neither is going to happen anytime soon.

Is that what that map is called?? Volcanic basin. lol I keep calling it the spikey rock map because I simply had no idea.

And yes, those things are for cover. Running out in the middle of a field and not bolting for the next batch of cover is a terrible idea. It's all about cover.

Certainly the folks standing on the apex of a ridge or hill, or the tippy top of the flakes deserve whats coming to them though. LOL at standing still outside of cover.

I get the feeling like I need to restate this: I am a sniper. It's all I've been doing since a few days after Precursor hit. So when I say I'm not constrained, what I mean is that, as a sniper myself, I do not feel like other snipers are at all effective counters to me and don't infringe upon my ability to play in any significant way.

But no, this isn't the way it ought to be, because it isn't a battlefield, it's a game, and the purpose of the game is to be fun. People should not be shut down by we snipers so easily. Sniping should not be something that you can effortlessly get 10 or 20 kills with and only one or two deaths with, despite investing a minimum of ISK and without any serious SP demands.

Here's the real bit that is really uncontroversial: If you spent the same SP and ISK on an infantry fit, and played that infantry guy solo, you would not do anywhere as well at hurting the enemy team and winning the game as if you were a sniper.

And I counter-snipe intermittently if it suits me. If there are any snipers exposed, I'll kill them. I don't go out of my way to kill them, and will not endanger myself to kill one of them. I don't assert that my shooting of snipers now and then is an effective way to deal with sniping in general, as plenty of snipers go about their business safe from me or any other sniper.



If someone is using a Ishukone I'll make a bit of an effort to kill them. I won't expose myself recklessly, but when I kill Gem Cutter a few times because he's using a rifle that costs more than my entire fit, I do smirk a bit.

But, yeah, I am trying to kill a lot of people. My entire point in switching to sniper was to demonstrate how easy sniping is. I don't have any
vendettas and don't typically pay attention to who's in the game. So it might be the case that my own experiences are more applicable to your average sniper than your own.

You don't think ccp is looking at all the numbers and not only the leet? How many snipers you putting down a day. At the end of the game. Those guys you killed. How many went positive? How many of that total were snipers?

For every descent sniper I have met there have been 20 that couldn't go positive. How can you, talking about a person on the front page of the kd board, call them op and forget about the hundreds that don't find sniping easy. I could build a scout mountain out of bodies of snipers I have laid waste to. Ccp has to see the awesome number of snipers that are no where close to op.

My one frustration with you is in threads where snipers are talking about how difficult it is and you come in and say how good you are and how op sniping is. This is a beta. If you have experience you will know the true talent doesn't arrive till the party starts after release. Beta testers are known for being crap. How many demos have you watched and thought wtf is that idiot doing? I'm sure it is a lot.

I would hold back on that feeling of you putting gem out of pocket. Ccp bumped the isk again due to complaints. I have 100 ishukones. When it hits 90 I rebuy 10. I have 24 mil isk waiting for my proto suits. Look at his number of kills. He will be very close to me in total isk received.

Personally I see ishukone in the kill feed and its written in red. I know its game time.

This sums up my feelings perfectly...not just about snipers, but on tanks, last build's REs, EVERYTHING!
What makes something OP isn't when a small percentage of the player base can be beastly with it... it's when even an AVERAGE player, can dominate with it.

Not to get off topic, but this is why something like the SR and snipers aren't really OP, but tanks are. Why REs were OP last build, why Heavy with HMG was OP two builds ago, etc ,etc.

Fivetimes Infinity why haven't I ever gone up against you in a match my Ishukeone wants to say hi.

Maybe I'll breake out the Thale even

Yeah you have. We were in a corp battle at least once where I killed you several times. Remember that Caldari sniper, near B, the one who was at close range? You tried to hit me a few times with your Ishukone, but when you finally shot me, I also shot you, but you died. I then killed you a couple other times as you were running around. If it's any consolation, someone complained about you over comms. It's why I remember killing you so well.

7. Nerf snipers.

Why? Because some of us are exceedingly good at picking you off from a distance? Use cover, don't stand out in the open. Use armor and shield upgrades. Have a lookout for snipers. There's at least a dozen anti sniper things you can do to protect yourselves. The only answer anyone has is 'sniper rifles are too powerful'. Then stop standing out in the open like a turkey.

We're an effective class. Those of us who do it well will continue doing it regardless of any changes. I enjoy sniping, it's why I play. I'd appreciate it if people better understood a sniper's position. It isn't all sunshine and flowers for us either. I will adapt, but it seems the other classes are having a harder time doing so... therefore, CCP will most likely adapt snipers to you.

I agree and I play a Logi with a shotgun. If i get killed by a sniper it's my own damn fault. By sticking to cover 95% of the time I never face the danger of a sniper. The thing that makes me laugh are the guys who KNOW there is a sniper who can see them but they insist popping their heads out to see where the sniper is sitting....BAMMMMMM DEAD! I dont mind I get points for reviving your dumbass.
I find having an ally sniper overlooking my area a must. I actually prefer it. I will put my drop uplink and nano hive somewhere near his firing lane just for the added security. Enemies who notice the drop uplink come wondering in like ******* sheep. Between the sniper and I, we will clean house.