DUST Search - In Defense of Sniping

Fivetimes Infinity wrote:

Van Aewulf wrote:

That's your experience though. If people didn't feel constrained, there wouldn't be such an outcry against the sniper class.

People are scared to run around the battlefield because of that powerful bullet coming from the shadows. That's the way it ought to be on a violent, dangerous battlefield.

If you're targeting a sniper because he's got a few kills then you're effectively counter sniping, even if it's with an AR or whatever. You're still counter sniping, yet you say it's terrible advice. Which is it man?

You do it because it's the effective way to deal with a sniper. You say it's terrible, but how else should it be done? From what you've written, your solution is that CCP should force snipers to the front line. Where the HMG, AR, and tanks can rip them to shreds. That's what I'm reading.

I get the feeling like I need to restate this: I am a sniper. It's all I've been doing since a few days after Precursor hit. So when I say I'm not constrained, what I mean is that, as a sniper myself, I do not feel like other snipers are at all effective counters to me and don't infringe upon my ability to play in any significant way.

But no, this isn't the way it ought to be, because it isn't a battlefield, it's a game, and the purpose of the game is to be fun. People should not be shut down by we snipers so easily. Sniping should not be something that you can effortlessly get 10 or 20 kills with and only one or two deaths with, despite investing a minimum of ISK and without any serious SP demands.

Here's the real bit that is really uncontroversial: If you spent the same SP and ISK on an infantry fit, and played that infantry guy solo, you would not do anywhere as well at hurting the enemy team and winning the game as if you were a sniper.

And I counter-snipe intermittently if it suits me. If there are any snipers exposed, I'll kill them. I don't go out of my way to kill them, and will not endanger myself to kill one of them. I don't assert that my shooting of snipers now and then is an effective way to deal with sniping in general, as plenty of snipers go about their business safe from me or any other sniper.

RankRancid wrote:

I think this is where you and I will differ for ever. I see a big name on that other team and my kill rate goes down. My sole purpose is to find that person and shut their game down. So what if I die a few times. I have had so many mountain goating trips I have 4000 lives in the pocket. I learn nothing from hiding from these people. If tony hasn't killed me so many times face to face he would be able to call me a chicken and he would be right. As you say we are always killing from so far away. Go up to people and say hi. Its not all about reaching out and touching someone.

If someone is using a Ishukone I'll make a bit of an effort to kill them. I won't expose myself recklessly, but when I kill Gem Cutter a few times because he's using a rifle that costs more than my entire fit, I do smirk a bit.

But, yeah, I am trying to kill a lot of people. My entire point in switching to sniper was to demonstrate how easy sniping is. I don't have any
vendettas and don't typically pay attention to who's in the game. So it might be the case that my own experiences are more applicable to your average sniper than your own.


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RankRancid Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 51	Posted - 2012.09.10 21:43:00 - [1] - Quote Yes CCP sniper is overpowered. There is no sway on the sniper rifle anymore. Half the damage and triple the sway. I mean imagine if all us snipers had to get and mouseboard and key. I mean the list of people screaming snipers are op would jump to 5 of us. Listen to us please CCP. I hate these damn snipers. Guys relax a little too,if you read around tony likes taking the ****. 2 of my clan mates are navy men from the south and I must just say their hate for the northeners and wicked sense of humor is awesome. But seriously nerf all these damn snipers. Make the scout suits hit box twice the size. Make the damage half and add marshmellows. Please bring back last builds horrific sway. Nerf keyboards and mice. You have to listen to us! We don't want to ruin the infantry game. I'm also talking to you damn tanks and dropships. This is called infantry 514!!
RankRancid Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 51	Posted - 2012.09.10 22:06:00 - [2] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Sarcasm is cool and also super constructive. So you saying southeners aren't awesome? Don't pretend to know my motives. You have convinced me of one thing. Ccp need to look at the stats of people who played with the controller last build then look at those same people using the mouse this build. They then need to look at the numbers of everyone playing snipers and look at the real kd numbers. I don't pretend to be the leader of anti snipers,I just hate being part of the new in. The number of snipers have gone out of control. I'm not complaining at all. My kd is skyrocketing with all these op snipers neg bombing. Lol with tips like wear a assault suit and wear a heavy suit when sniping I'd swear you are just setting up easy targets. But hey,what do I know?
RankRancid Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 51	Posted - 2012.09.10 22:48:00 - [3] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: have to say increasing the sway is the best solution as well as moving the charge to at least an advanced sniper taking up 93 cpu. Sniping was more difficult last build, i miss it. Infinity thinks I'm joking when I say that. I can see where the problem will come in with it though for ccp. They are already trying to lower the gap between proto and standard suits. Now just picture guys like us that have lots of time to play. We will be at pro 3 by the second day latest. We would feast on beginner snipers even through sniper level 5 until they reach us at pro 3. By then we would be at 5 so still have our rifle centered 10% faster than them. We would even be able to quick scope again...Cue youtube. I love cod but **** that. I am really for more sway,but they can't have it centered like before because quickscoping was doable.
RankRancid Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 51	Posted - 2012.09.10 23:04:00 - [4] - Quote I'm on your side,except for the sway. I'm used to it that way already. No learning curve for me so I don't care. I will not hate my clan mates due to the fact that they hate the northeners. That would be continuing the circle of hate. I love them, it warps their minds. Sorry if I raised your blood pressure slightly. Any time you are keen to do some sniping with me you can send an invite. I'm really not in this to make enemies. Ask my fellow corp mates. When things are serious I'll do anything to help anyone on my team anywhere on the field. So you will have to lose the mountain only sniping if contrabanjoe gives you an order.
RankRancid Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 51	Posted - 2012.09.10 23:13:00 - [5] - Quote Van Aewulf wrote: RankRancid wrote: Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Sarcasm is cool and also super constructive. So you saying southeners aren't awesome? Don't pretend to know my motives. You have convinced me of one thing. Ccp need to look at the stats of people who played with the controller last build then look at those same people using the mouse this build. They then need to look at the numbers of everyone playing snipers and look at the real kd numbers. I don't pretend to be the leader of anti snipers,I just hate being part of the new in. The number of snipers have gone out of control. I'm not complaining at all. My kd is skyrocketing with all these op snipers neg bombing. Lol with tips like wear a assault suit and wear a heavy suit when sniping I'd swear you are just setting up easy targets. But hey,what do I know? What? Why do southerners have to be awesome now? What are you even on about? I made a comment to Tony regarding his spewing hateful vitriol was akin to hate crimes seen in the south where persons wish a serious detriment against a particular class of people for being who they are and nothing else. Please don't tell me you think that kind of behavior is funny. That's the only analogy I've made with persons of the South, and I was attempting to use a specific subset of them... it isn't to say that all Southerners behave in that fashion either. Dude, the mouse doesn't work! Have you even tried using one? The turn speed is so slow it'll get you killed in a heartbeat. I'll give you that... the new crop of snipers are horrible and should just stop. I've never used an assault or heavy suit while sniping. Neither does the dude you quoted. He just switches to swarm launchers occasionally for AV combat. Are you ok? You know what,just cancel that invite. You are too complicated. I was talking to infinity. If you can't follow the conversation which isn't long just forget about it. I would rather play against you. So damn serious too. The marshmellow should have been a clear indicator I was being sarcastic. The last thing I will say ever about anything sniping related will be increase the sway to last build.
RankRancid Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 51	Posted - 2012.09.10 23:44:00 - [6] - Quote Van Aewulf wrote: Fivetimes Infinity wrote: RankRancid wrote: But hey,what do I know? I'm still waiting to hear this part. You should make a post where you aren't ranting and being sarcastic and just say things logically and concisely. I'll retract what I said here, I didn't understand the sarcasm in the beginning. Sarcasm on the internet is an art, and I is easily missed sometimes. My apologies. Go read some sniping tips for the ladies. If you have followed infinity even his own thread of 'help' turned into his crusade for the infantry. He is playing games now. I already told him he won and that is why I am agreeing to have the sway increased. When we reached end game last build you could make a glass cannon that would ohk a heavy. He would die from gun powder residue though. If you made a scout tank you would not even ohk another proto scout. I asked infinity if he has faced a proto suit yet. He didn't even know that the suits were black except for scout proto thus meaning he hasn't been end game. Opinion null and void until that date. That's where the majority will be playing. Well the hardcore atleast. I would like ccp to follow stats and decide nerfs,not us. Any game that the community has begged for nerf after nerf has turned into crap.
RankRancid Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 51	Posted - 2012.09.11 08:06:00 - [7] - Quote Van Aewulf wrote: Also, RankRancid, regarding the southerner comment I realize now that I had made the follow post in a separate thread altogether. It was a huge mistake on my part, turned into a real cluster: Van Aewulf wrote: #71Posted: 2012.09.10 18:36 \| Report Tony Calif wrote: I love your rage. LoL. Feed me sniper tears lol. I could do another thread before my "tony's quick guide to skirmish." I could do one all about sniping, and how it's ineffective, KBM advantage, why people get killed with AR's when they're a sniper, that kinda thing. But I'd really rather concentrate on getting those who are actually going to the objectives, hacking them too. And getting there alive (mostly). You get there alive from Intel and covery fire from a sniper position. What are you on dude? Sniper tears? Do you take drugs, son? C'mon man, what the hell do you know about tactical combat? Did you serve as a private in the military for 4 years? Think that makes you a master of tactical skirmish combat? Maybe you don't get there alive very often because you're incorrectly utilizing the combat roles available to you. Perhaps you should rethink what you think you know about combat. And lastly, what you did is considered hate speech. You wished a detrimental outcome (permanent death) on a specific class of persons (snipers) for nothing more than being what they are. Are you also a white supremacist from the deep south who attacks blacks and gays randomly for nothing more than being who they are? What do you stand for? You act like a child who only recently received internet privileges. Retaliating the way I did was unacceptable, I'll admit that. Do you even have a job? Link: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=35596&p=4 Post 11 on page 4. Again, I completely misread you after dinner and a nap. It is all good,it was late last night and in hindsight only people that have been following infinity would have known what I was talking about. I didn't see Tony get upset and I'm nearly 100% sure he laughed it off. It has something to do with that wicked sense of humor. The whole southener and northener thing was just me pointing out my experience from my clanmates. I really do love them. There is nothing better in this world than listening to a southerner crap a northener out because he tuned me, a south african. That is just borderline xenophobic. I would fight with french,english and americans in cod. Until I met leggyuk and andy-skills. They made me readjust my opinion on people from different cultures. I would also recommend reading some of tonys other threads and posts. The majority you notice will contain juicy tips for any noob and skilled person. He is constructive regularly. Sorry I brought an old argument back here into your thread. I could see the whole op argument coming a mile away. So hopefully no hard feelings.
RankRancid Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 51	Posted - 2012.09.11 16:08:00 - [8] - Quote I can't agree with this infinity. Yesterday Edrot Or'vana and Frank A and myself were on the same team. I joined half way in and I suspect that could have been why Ed'rot was sniping as when we are on the same team he will usually run assault. Frank A is fairly newish to me as a sniper so I can't say I know much about him except he is a damn good counter sniper. The end of that game Edrot 25-0,Frank A was 21-0 and myself at 17-0. All 3 of us on top. Kills were flowing only because they had noob snipers on that team. I'm surprised there were no 'snipers are op' after that game. Whenever we are faced against each other ALL of our kills drop significantly. This happens 10 times a day. Don't only take my word for it. Ask them yourself. We get better everyday because we hunt each other and no one else. The only reason those 2 guys aren't above me for kd is because they play with all the classes much more than me. A game I came out of right now had someone called hat tata in it. I killed him as an assault,he returned with a ishukone and killed me twice and spent the rest of the game hunting me. I ended up going 8-2. First time I have died twice in a game since Edrot made me go 3-4. The only negative game I have had this build. The other 2 people to double gank me in game are here with us Sha and Tony and the one missing from this thread is Tyas. I like the fact that my major failures have been against them. It makes my head big. Can't forget a shoutout to x-darktemplar-x Heavy. The man that will cross a map take 3 bullets to the face and laugh while gunning you down with his gastun mini gun. I dare you to twitch straff him. He is my death dealer. Damn I nearly forgot shakaaal6666. Another heavy that doesn't give a crap about snipers. Those people I have mentioned make me and any other sniper look far from overpowered. I wish they would come and speak on this topic. I play against them constantly and they all have my respect. Especially edrot and frank. If they agreed with you,I would be willing to re look my stance with you infinity and sniper being overpowered. Not that it means anything to you I am sure.
RankRancid Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 51	Posted - 2012.09.11 18:20:00 - [9] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: So why didn't you reposition yourself so that you were safe from the enemy snipers and help your team take objectives instead of dueling? The thing countering you in that game was yourself. You decided to go hunting the other snipers rather than shooting enemy infantry. In my own experience, if an enemy sniper seems to get a few kills I'll pop up now-and-then to see if he's exposed and I can kill them, but otherwise I'll simply position myself somewhere safe and wipe out the enemy team's infantry like normal. I've never felt myself constrained in any significant way by another sniper. I'm not here to help my team win at the moment. My clan will only come when this game goes live. I'm playing with the enemy at this time. Unless it is one of those people I mentioned. Then I show how much of a benefit I can be to team play. I could also be topping the kills for corp battles if I wanted to kill farm. That was the perfect opportunity for me to show my team sport. I listened to every order given and was first person on location. Someone lost a dropship behind enemy lines. I went and got it back on foot with no secondary weapon and spent the rest of the game keeping that flying coffin afloat. My life means nothing when I fight for the collective or my clan. I think this is where you and I will differ for ever. I see a big name on that other team and my kill rate goes down. My sole purpose is to find that person and shut their game down. So what if I die a few times. I have had so many mountain goating trips I have 4000 lives in the pocket. I learn nothing from hiding from these people. If tony hasn't killed me so many times face to face he would be able to call me a chicken and he would be right. As you say we are always killing from so far away. Go up to people and say hi. Its not all about reaching out and touching someone. At the start of every plateu match that Frank A and I are against each other we meet at the same place at the same time. It does get ruined by noob snipers on my team following me sometimes. 90% of the time its just me and him. If this game had theater I'm sure half the people watching the game would think we are boosting actually. I would still be a noob if I didn't go after flux,gem cutter and bad furry every time I saw their names last build. There I admitted it for you too Tony. Snipers don't do jack to help some games. Hope that sort of explains why I do the things I do infinity.
RankRancid Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 51	Posted - 2012.09.11 19:22:00 - [10] - Quote Van Aewulf wrote: I'll join that admission, I tried to in a previous post somewhat without coming out and saying it directly. I suppose the reason I reacted the way I did was the severity of Tony's initial remark without posting any well thought out counter argument. Rank, if you guys would have me in your clan post-launch, I'd be happy to join. Also happy to do any grouping now. I promise I'm not so serious outside of a serious debate. I am US TZ though. Ambush maps I contribute a lot 95% of the time, but skirmishes can be hit or miss. Depends on what the hot objective is... I try to readjust but that can take quite some time and by the time I get repositioned, the action might be at the objective I left. I try to find positions where I can cover at least two objectives. Usually A and D on the pipe/tower map, and A E and D on the green city maps, and I can cover A, most of B, and C on the map with the spike rocks and the tower at B. Again, if the action moves outside of my line of sight it can take some time to readjust and that is difficult to do. Having a logistics on stand by with an LAV would be a huge boon. Anyway, food for thought. I know you retracted the invite but I thought I'd put it out there that there was some interest on my end. My reading comprehension fail kind of burned me though. Lol no bridges burnt here. The more I hear contrabanjoe on the planetary response channel,the more I am inclined to believe I'm going to let my clan be absorbed by his corporation or whatever he starts. His tactics over this last weeks corp battles were amazing. Even if we actually faced a descent team they would have been spanked. Lol my main reason though is he didn't even ask if he could lead us. He just took control of our team of killers and was shouting orders. Without a doubt the most fun I have had in this beta. Can't wait for full team grouping. Then true op things can start showing themselves and fun time will be here. I would invite you and give you the password to that uvt channel but its not mine to give. Will ask him if he minds more people coming in. Its not a corp right now just people grouping and talking to each other about the game. Will get back to you in game.

RankRancid Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 51	Posted - 2012.09.11 20:28:00 - [11] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Van Aewulf wrote: That's your experience though. If people didn't feel constrained, there wouldn't be such an outcry against the sniper class. People are scared to run around the battlefield because of that powerful bullet coming from the shadows. That's the way it ought to be on a violent, dangerous battlefield. If you're targeting a sniper because he's got a few kills then you're effectively counter sniping, even if it's with an AR or whatever. You're still counter sniping, yet you say it's terrible advice. Which is it man? You do it because it's the effective way to deal with a sniper. You say it's terrible, but how else should it be done? From what you've written, your solution is that CCP should force snipers to the front line. Where the HMG, AR, and tanks can rip them to shreds. That's what I'm reading. I get the feeling like I need to restate this: I am a sniper. It's all I've been doing since a few days after Precursor hit. So when I say I'm not constrained, what I mean is that, as a sniper myself, I do not feel like other snipers are at all effective counters to me and don't infringe upon my ability to play in any significant way. But no, this isn't the way it ought to be, because it isn't a battlefield, it's a game, and the purpose of the game is to be fun. People should not be shut down by we snipers so easily. Sniping should not be something that you can effortlessly get 10 or 20 kills with and only one or two deaths with, despite investing a minimum of ISK and without any serious SP demands. Here's the real bit that is really uncontroversial: If you spent the same SP and ISK on an infantry fit, and played that infantry guy solo, you would not do anywhere as well at hurting the enemy team and winning the game as if you were a sniper. And I counter-snipe intermittently if it suits me. If there are any snipers exposed, I'll kill them. I don't go out of my way to kill them, and will not endanger myself to kill one of them. I don't assert that my shooting of snipers now and then is an effective way to deal with sniping in general, as plenty of snipers go about their business safe from me or any other sniper. RankRancid wrote: I think this is where you and I will differ for ever. I see a big name on that other team and my kill rate goes down. My sole purpose is to find that person and shut their game down. So what if I die a few times. I have had so many mountain goating trips I have 4000 lives in the pocket. I learn nothing from hiding from these people. If tony hasn't killed me so many times face to face he would be able to call me a chicken and he would be right. As you say we are always killing from so far away. Go up to people and say hi. Its not all about reaching out and touching someone. If someone is using a Ishukone I'll make a bit of an effort to kill them. I won't expose myself recklessly, but when I kill Gem Cutter a few times because he's using a rifle that costs more than my entire fit, I do smirk a bit. But, yeah, I am trying to kill a lot of people. My entire point in switching to sniper was to demonstrate how easy sniping is. I don't have any vendettas and don't typically pay attention to who's in the game. So it might be the case that my own experiences are more applicable to your average sniper than your own. You don't think ccp is looking at all the numbers and not only the leet? How many snipers you putting down a day. At the end of the game. Those guys you killed. How many went positive? How many of that total were snipers? For every descent sniper I have met there have been 20 that couldn't go positive. How can you, talking about a person on the front page of the kd board, call them op and forget about the hundreds that don't find sniping easy. I could build a scout mountain out of bodies of snipers I have laid waste to. Ccp has to see the awesome number of snipers that are no where close to op. My one frustration with you is in threads where snipers are talking about how difficult it is and you come in and say how good you are and how op sniping is. This is a beta. If you have experience you will know the true talent doesn't arrive till the party starts after release. Beta testers are known for being crap. How many demos have you watched and thought wtf is that idiot doing? I'm sure it is a lot. I would hold back on that feeling of you putting gem out of pocket. Ccp bumped the isk again due to complaints. I have 100 ishukones. When it hits 90 I rebuy 10. I have 24 mil isk waiting for my proto suits. Look at his number of kills. He will be very close to me in total isk received. Personally I see ishukone in the kill feed and its written in red. I know its game time.