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shall we discuss diminishing returns?

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Buzzwords Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION 416	Posted - 2012.08.25 18:50:00 - [1] - Quote welcome gentlemen, have a seat. brandy? no, alright then. lets get right to it. i wish to discuss the diminishing returns on skillpoint gain. many of you already know to what i refer, but for the uninitiated: it means that as you play more and more throughout the day, you will be paid less and less skillpoints for an equivalent performance. sad times indeed. this effect resets every day at 8PM EST. this is why you see yourself being rewarded so poorly at 7:45, inexplicably well at 8:15, then rather poorly again at 10:30. now, i am not here to tear down the system. i understand the need for it's existence. CCP doesn't want a small % of players to "beat" the game in a month. so whether you agree with the system or not, you at least understand the rationale behind it, correct? what i would like to do however, is discuss the specifics of the system, and hopefully improve it towards it's perceived intentions. i will state what i believe to be those intentions now so we can proceed from the same page. diminishing returns: 1) are meant to prevent players from rapidly capping out their skill trees. which will 2) keep the playing field more level between players who can spend a LOT of time playing, and those who cannot. do we agree that this is the intent of the system? good. now i will submit my critique. objective number 2 is not REALLY accomplished by the system as it is at current. a player who does not have the opportunity to grind away endlessly, is far more likely to not be able to play at ALL (or very much at all) during the week. monday through thursday, and maybe even friday. those players MISS OUT on all potential skillpoints that COULD have been earned during the week, because the game does not care how many skillpoints you got yesterday, it only looks at today. the current system still rewards the player who can be online every single day, and punishes those who cannot. do we all agree that this is counterproductive to the stated intention? good. now i will submit my solution. i suggest that the system be changed from a daily reset, to a weekly. this way the player who can only really dedicate any significant chunk of time to gaming on a weekend, or their day off, or whatever their schedule is like, are not FORCED to miss out. i know many people who can barely play at all during the week, but will go HOURS on a saturday. i also propose that, to counter out the significantly reduced skillpoint gain by being reset once a week instead of once a day, the "soft cap" on skillpoint gain be increased by about 7 fold. this would keep skillpoint gain roughly equivalent to where it is now, it just frees up your schedule regarding when you can earn them. the system is still not perfect, but i believe it to be a large step in the right direction. thoughts? thank you for your time.
OG DonHel 65	Posted - 2012.08.25 18:58:00 - [2] - Quote Not a bad Idea, I for one am not a fan of the current diminishing returns but do believe we need them. I was thinking of a way to go about this aswell. One thing that occured to me pretty fast is, the very first game has the most potential for SP, next a lil less and so on right? Well, I don't know about everyone else but when I first get on I need a game or 2 to warm up. I hate going 5/4 or soemthing on my first 2 games getting like 25-30k sp still and then going 15/2 on my 4th or 5th game and having less SP given :\ . So what I propose is, what if we had a set amount of games that can be played each day at full SP and the player chooses which game to use those on before the battle starts. And then after those and in between those the players gets a much much lower 8-10k SP per match or so, no matter how well they do. Thoughts?
Tebil Gurn ZionTCD Legacy Rising 40	Posted - 2012.08.25 19:01:00 - [3] - Quote I actually agree with your final conclusion, for the most part. Right now the best way to take advantage of the system is to play an hour or two each day, and some people can't fit that into their schedule. If it's a weekly reset, they can play 7-14 hours on their days off and have the same effect. I think it would be best if the reset took place late in the work week, like Friday's downtime, so that the weekend when most people won't be working is a clean slate for everyone. There's a reason why other MMOs like WoW had weekly timers, and I think if DUST adopted that it would even things out much more, which seems to be the goal that CCP is aiming for. In addition, I agree with other threads saying that SP gain is too fast, but I also agree that it's even slightly too slow for a new player. Maybe a x2 multiplier until the merc has 2mil SP or something, then go down to around 0.5x-0.75x of what it is now.
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 206	Posted - 2012.08.25 19:11:00 - [4] - Quote I find the active skilling is fine as is, or even tiny tiny bit slow. For purposes to aid in players who dont play often or cant during the week, id say give them passive skill bonuses instead of hindering everyone else. You make 28.8k passive skill points a day. Id say if u play less then a certain amount of time on monday (say less then 2hrs), for tuesday your passive bonus with be double (so 59k passive sp for the day), if dont play at all, then say wednesday will be a 2.5x bonus, etc. And it resests after say u hit 4x bonus passive for the week if u dont play; as currently u get about 210k SP passively a week, so if added bonuses for those who dont play at all really during the week, u may allow them to get up to 250-350k passively. Just my. 02 isk off the top of my head
Silax Minour Doomheim 29	Posted - 2012.08.25 19:24:00 - [5] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: I find the active skilling is fine as is, or even tiny tiny bit slow. For purposes to aid in players who dont play often or cant during the week, id say give them passive skill bonuses instead of hindering everyone else. You make 28.8k passive skill points a day. Id say if u play less then a certain amount of time on monday (say less then 2hrs), for tuesday your passive bonus with be double (so 59k passive sp for the day), if dont play at all, then say wednesday will be a 2.5x bonus, etc. And it resests after say u hit 4x bonus passive for the week if u dont play; as currently u get about 210k SP passively a week, so if added bonuses for those who dont play at all really during the week, u may allow them to get up to 250-350k passively. Just my. 02 isk off the top of my head I like where you are going with that. Like maybe the rate at which your passive SP is given is based on how long it's been sense your last log in or something? Normal passive on Mon, but 1.2% of norm on Tues, 1.4% on Wed etc. etc... And, I too agree, the current SP gain is a big fast FOR THIS BUILD. IF we are to see more skills, as mentioned above, then it would be just fine. But as of right now, I have decided to start skilling toward Dropships just to have SOMETHING else to be leveling. Plus, flying is fun
Kesi Raae Kaae Much Crying Old Experts 40	Posted - 2012.08.25 19:25:00 - [6] - Quote Good idea, well argued.
smartlayer Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 6	Posted - 2012.08.25 19:34:00 - [7] - Quote +1
Viktor Strakhov Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.08.25 19:38:00 - [8] - Quote +1 also
Varys Targaryen 200	Posted - 2012.08.25 19:39:00 - [9] - Quote Seeing as I have a full time job now on top of other responsibilities, I would love a weekly cap timer instead of the current daily cap timer. +1 for a good idea.
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 206	Posted - 2012.08.25 19:49:00 - [10] - Quote Silax Minour wrote: Berserker007 wrote: I find the active skilling is fine as is, or even tiny tiny bit slow. For purposes to aid in players who dont play often or cant during the week, id say give them passive skill bonuses instead of hindering everyone else. You make 28.8k passive skill points a day. Id say if u play less then a certain amount of time on monday (say less then 2hrs), for tuesday your passive bonus with be double (so 59k passive sp for the day), if dont play at all, then say wednesday will be a 2.5x bonus, etc. And it resests after say u hit 4x bonus passive for the week if u dont play; as currently u get about 210k SP passively a week, so if added bonuses for those who dont play at all really during the week, u may allow them to get up to 250-350k passively. Just my. 02 isk off the top of my head I like where you are going with that. Like maybe the rate at which your passive SP is given is based on how long it's been sense your last log in or something? Normal passive on Mon, but 1.2% of norm on Tues, 1.4% on Wed etc. etc... And, I too agree, the current SP gain is a big fast FOR THIS BUILD. IF we are to see more skills, as mentioned above, then it would be just fine. But as of right now, I have decided to start skilling toward Dropships just to have SOMETHING else to be leveling. Plus, flying is fun Tnx for the compliment, reason said 2x and such, as say if wana set max at 3x, for 3 days, if u do the math, someone will get 270k instead of 210k, so even at 2x and 3x for a day then reset, it isnt a game changer but is helpful

Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.08.25 19:52:00 - [11] - Quote Just right now we dont have the 7 year long skill tree we have the 2 year long one.
Henri Thoreau Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2012.08.25 20:02:00 - [12] - Quote +1...I support the OP's idea of a weekly reset instead of daily reset.
Super Cargo Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 428	Posted - 2012.08.25 20:28:00 - [13] - Quote Yes! I agree with this.
Chimeric BlackProphet Immobile Infantry 4	Posted - 2012.08.25 20:56:00 - [14] - Quote +1 as well, good idea
GLOO GLOO Algintal Core Gallente Federation 217	Posted - 2012.08.25 21:12:00 - [15] - Quote +1 good idea
The Warbot Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 85	Posted - 2012.08.25 21:16:00 - [16] - Quote +1 I hope CCP actually reads this. Spot on.
Benjamin Hellios Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 259	Posted - 2012.08.25 21:35:00 - [17] - Quote I understand the rationale but then again I don't. Why do we need a level playing field? Usually I'm just a casual player, right now more of a non player with the state the beta is in, but still I still think it's a strange idea to discourage hardcore gamers to play the game as much as they want through the use of artificial boundaries. If anything they should do it on an individual level and use some kind of exponential decay function applied to the actual time spent in game. So if you played non stop, hypothetically off course, you'd get 50% of total possible SP within the first year, 25% the next year, 12.5 the next, etc. So those final percentages of total possible SP would take the longest to aquire. I'm not exactly a math wiz, so my reasoning may be flawed, but to me this would make more sense.
crazy space ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2012.08.25 21:57:00 - [18] - Quote I love this post. At 1st I was thinking, what a dumb shiny idiot suggestion is that ? And then, well, you backed it up and now I find my self in awe of your genius. This is now my number one suggestion nor. This would also make the 1st day you play a week pay out 3 days worth of sp. It would be fun to get 200,000 sp in our 1st match, to find it down to 2,000 a good match by day 4. If you play too much. This would keep the game fun to the person who can only put one serious day in to a game once a week. This system doesn't make that taker feel too left out. He's still not as leveled as the rest of us , but he gets tins of sp scrutiny time bf plays. Everyone would get so obsessed with having to play so much a week to get ahead of the people would only play 8 hours a week.
EMPTY SL0T Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 41	Posted - 2012.08.25 22:01:00 - [19] - Quote Very well worded, but I disagree. First, I'll pass on arguing with you about if skillpoint (SP) gain diminishing returns is really happening or not. I've seen no confirmation of it's existence from CCP. Have you or has anyone? OTOH, I also seem to see this happening just as you explain it. So, I'll write this reply as if it is real. I also don't know if it is planned to be in the game after beta testing. Buzzwords wrote: 1) are meant to prevent players from rapidly capping out their skill trees. I'm not sure why it is presently there or if it is a planned design at all. Buzzwords wrote: 2) keep the playing field more level between players who can spend a LOT of time playing, and those who cannot. This could be the reason and seems to be the most logical. However, if it is, then CCP will also need a way to keep the field more level between good players with good reaction times, and players who suck, like me, who don't have such good hand-eye coordination and reaction times any longer. CCP would need a system implemented where the more SP one has, the more SP gain diminishing returns they would see from battles. In fact, I think player fighting proficiency is much more of a threat to any long term, player leveling objective CCP may have than is the amount of time one has available to play. However, imagine if you put the two together -- a very proficient player that can play about all the time. WOW. Bad news. There is a point, though, where a game designer can try to level things so much that there isn't much reason to play. OTOH, the handicap system in golf, which allows players with different abilities to participate in matches on a level playing ground, has been working for years. But then again, in golf a good player doesn't keep getting better and better and better and better as he wins more or plays more often. I think things are fine the way they are now. Asteroids in EVE, or the mining thereof, have been this way for years. (The time for it happening, though, is different.) After the daily downtime (11:00 sever time in EVE as it is here in Dust), asteroids are replenished throughout the EVE universe and ones that had been depleted reappear again. The problem I most see with the way it is now is that it seems to be somewhat of a community pool of available SP that is diminishing. This screws players who cannot be playing at the best time of the day. If all you are assuming IS true, I don't think you are going to get CCP to change things so that SP gain sucks at least half the week. I also don't see any reason to screw players who play every day in favor to those who can only easily play on the weekends. No more than I see a reason to screw good players in favor of someone like me. `Tis a game, you know. Even though I'm fairly bad at it, I still like the occasional thrill. Like a bad poker player when he finally wins a pot, I guess. We're going to have to see how this all pans out. EVE is a strength-in-numbers type game. If this is, or becomes, strictly a player proficiency game I doubt many corporations are going to want to have me around. I don't know what will happen, but I'm not going to ***** about it ahead of time. JMO M.T.
Cricix D Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2012.08.25 22:07:00 - [20] - Quote But what if CCP wants players to play everyday, if even just for a hour to expose them more to the Aurum always waiting to be bought. But, I do agree that a weekly hour count would be more fair. I can't play more than 2 hours a day so it doesn't really affect me.

crazy space ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2012.08.25 22:07:00 - [21] - Quote Also um the reward for playing more is isk. You can't passively get the isk to unloock skills. You have to play to gain.isk. if the empower players with a week long cooldiwn people who play this game will be competitive in the game in just a few weeks. In just 3 months without playing you get enough passive sp to unlock all fitting skills and a proto weapon. What's fun about eve is you never get every skill. And you can max out a scout in 2 months and be competitive with 2 year old playersn nut eve contuines to reward the long term player with super long skills with little return. It's a mark of pride you maxed out every races frigates and weapons. But it doesn't make you any better than the new player in combat. You just get to feel like a rich powerful mercy would suicides blackop tanks for fun he's so rich. But guess what, land a head shot and he still goes down. Genius system really.
Chao Wolf Imperfects Negative-Feedback 209	Posted - 2012.08.25 23:25:00 - [22] - Quote I'm all for the weekly timer replacing the daily timer.
Jarre Jardox Cool Story But It Needs More EVE 30	Posted - 2012.08.25 23:45:00 - [23] - Quote I don't understand. R u guys saying tht ppl who get on daily shouldn't be rewarded for their dedication an loyalty and that those who don't play daily should get rewarded?
Lazarus Solo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 66	Posted - 2012.08.25 23:57:00 - [24] - Quote Jarre Jardox wrote: I don't understand. R u guys saying tht ppl who get on daily shouldn't be rewarded for their dedication an loyalty and that those who don't play daily should get rewarded? He is saying that people who have lives, families, jobs, education e.t.c. outside of the gaming world shouldn't be punished in game for it. Not only this, but this new system would ensure the game lasts longer. If you play all day ever day, you get very rich with ISK. You will also earn bonus skill points. If you play weekly, you still get almost as many skill points, but none of the cash. Perhaps they would turn to AUR instead, as they have all the skill points they need, but nothing to purchase the skills with. Win for CCP, and a benefit to the longevity of DUST.
Zekrin Freee Doomheim 5	Posted - 2012.08.26 00:19:00 - [25] - Quote Hats off to Buzzwords for starting this thread in a mature fashion. It seems all responses have been equally as considerate following. I don't think DUST514 should be playing around with encouraging gamers to quit after they have received SP and ISK during "peak hours". I look at this game as a direct attack on Xbox's Halo and Call of Duty markets. And as a free to play game, it isn't about out selling, but starving out your competition. More time spent on the PS3 equates to less or none on the Xbox. It needs to be addicting as a free to play. If they really need to "punish" anyone, it should be limited to PVE missions so that no one ends up entering into a corner of New Eden farming the snot out of the server and leaving the merc boards for EvE players to recruit from empty (let's assume there was PVE to follow). If people really are dropping to 10-25% of what they earn in the first round, then isn't it a bit distressing to know you have purchased a 24 hour x1.50 SP booster using Aurum? I think the curve on increasing skills is already steep enough that it is unecessary to make it challenging to earn SP to burn. if you factor out 10,240 SP on a 1x multiplier skill the values needed for skills 1 through 5 are 1, 3, 7, 14, and 25 respectively (similar to the X^2 curve:1,4,9,16,25 ). And in many cases you need to complete a skill a unlock another one which was your primary goal the entire time; take large turrets for example. Let's just hope this dimishing return idea was just to slow down the learning curve of all the new gamers before the game goes live, and that it will be absent for the Open Beta.
TheInfectedOne 18	Posted - 2012.08.26 01:00:00 - [26] - Quote One effective way to make things even would be like MAG, give each player a 100% sp collection bonus for the first hour that said player is online (takes 24 hours to refresh) and let that stack with his/her skill booster if one has been purchased. Once that hour is up, it goes back to normal. If that normal is 1.5x because of a skill booster that was purchased, great, if it's back to 1x that's fine as well. It will give casual players the ability to at least stay 2 steps behind the hardcore (or unemployed) players who spend 8+ hours a day playing.
Jean-Henri 30	Posted - 2012.08.26 01:23:00 - [27] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: I find the active skilling is fine as is, or even tiny tiny bit slow. For purposes to aid in players who dont play often or cant during the week, id say give them passive skill bonuses instead of hindering everyone else. You make 28.8k passive skill points a day. Id say if u play less then a certain amount of time on monday (say less then 2hrs), for tuesday your passive bonus with be double (so 59k passive sp for the day), if dont play at all, then say wednesday will be a 2.5x bonus, etc. And it resests after say u hit 4x bonus passive for the week if u dont play; as currently u get about 210k SP passively a week, so if added bonuses for those who dont play at all really during the week, u may allow them to get up to 250-350k passively. Just my. 02 isk off the top of my head I think this is a sterling idea, however, I think that if a character is not played for greater then ten days, that passive Skill Point gains should reset to the current/native rate. I don't see a point in allowing people to download the game, create a character, then log off for 3 months, to come back and play a toon they have invested nothing into.
Buzzwords Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION 416	Posted - 2012.08.26 02:06:00 - [28] - Quote Jarre Jardox wrote: I don't understand. R u guys saying tht ppl who get on daily shouldn't be rewarded for their dedication an loyalty and that those who don't play daily should get rewarded? not at all my good man. under my suggested changes: over the course of the week, the hardcore players would net the same skillpoints they would have anyway. the casual players would still need to play enough games on saturday or sunday or whenever is convenient for them (i know one gentleman who only plays on thursday afternoons) to earn that weeks allotment. it would be quite the game of catch up, but they would at least have a chance. as for the suggestion by someone else (i apologize for not giving credit here, but i do not know how to multi-quote) that CCP wants us motivated to play every day... i suppose that could be part of their intent as well. though that seems somewhat insidious of them, and most players seem to be somewhat unhappy with that. so even if it IS their intent, perhaps we can persuade them otherwise? with any luck CCP will weigh in. i thank you all for your civil discourse. this is actually looking quite constructive.
Dr Skurlock SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 57	Posted - 2012.08.26 05:32:00 - [29] - Quote Guess I am the only one that thinks that the SP gain should just be set even across the board. The people that spend hours playing daily worked long hours to get their SP. IMO they deserve to get some SP not, diminishing returns. I am a full time student and don't get to play as much as I like but, I don't begrudge those that do. This is not the way CCP handles Eve; I don't see why it should be different here. You play long hours, you deserve long hours SP not, nerfed SP. I thought the instant battle was supposed to group similar level players anyway. Doesn't that account for the SP differentiation? Also, we won't always be playing on one planet. Does no one take into account that some will play in hi-sec and others in Nul-sec where it is more difficult?
Daddrobit Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 277	Posted - 2012.08.26 06:56:00 - [30] - Quote I am very pleased with the passive sp multiplier for inactive players. Maybe set it so that you earn 1.25x after a day of not playing, then 1.5x after a week that continues until it has doubled your last active sp amount. Of course this would need an entrance barrier of say 2 mil sp before the 1.5x can activate, and that would allow you to idle all the way to 4 mil sp before returning to the 1.25x sp. Then, imagine if you played to 20 mil sp before your first 1.5x multiplier. You would be able to earn to 40 mil sp off that idle. This would help those who cannot play every week, and those who like to take those 1, 2, 3+ month breaks and then come back and be a viable asset to your team. To illustrate: Play to 2 mil: 2 mil total Idle until the 1.5 multiplier runs out: 4 mil total Return immediately, play to 6 mil: 6 mil total Idle until the 1.5 multiplier runs out: 8 mil total OR Play to 23 mil: 23 mil total Idle until the 1.5 multiplier runs out: 46 mil total Return immediately, play to 49 mil: 49 mil total Idle until 1.5 multiplier runs out: 52 mil total So this would cut down on those people who would just create an account and let it sit for a year, as well as promote active consistent play, and that is really what CCP wants: active players. If more people play, and more people play consistently, then there's a better chance of people losing a lot of gear, more specifically, AUR gear. Then those players shell out more money to lose more AUR gear. Helping inactive players in such a manner would definitely be a positive for the long term. However, CCP needs money, and nerfing the daily reset to a weekly reset, (even if you would technically earn the same) would be detrimental immediately. If someone gets that 7x multiplier and immediately burns it out on the first day, then they have to sludge it through 6 days of earning crap for playing. That would then make them not want to play even in the slightest, not even once a week, it's just simply too long of a reset. Keep the standard of once a day and keep the general populace happy. Perhaps a compromise would be allowing inactive players to accrue that daily bonus up to 7x, (and then that is also the time when the 1.5 would kick in) for the first day back in a week(+), then immediately reset it back to 1x to restart the stack once the day that player played is finished. All the while maintaining the active players daily bonus.



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