DUST Search - Drone/Fighter/Fighter-Bomber Strikes

Klivve Cussler wrote:

I assume that when you set up a "fleet" or whatever with an Eve Pilot, you'll be able to "Warp to Battle", taking you to a point over the planet that has line of site on the battlefield. These wouldn't need to be generated dynamically, since the battlefield coordinates are static, the planet location is static, and the planets don't rotate, so no problems there. Then, as long as you are on grid to that point, within a certain range of the planet, you'll be able to initiate a strike at coordinates passed to you.

I still don't see why drones couldn't operate in atmo. They have shields and armour, so re-entry isn't a problem. They have a huge acceleration, so they certainly have the thrust to get back into space, and if they have that much thrust, they can maintain altitude. Is it aerodynamics? There isn't much in Dust that is aerodynamically shaped now, and the shape of the shields probably determines aerodynamics more than the drone.

Now, from a gameplay perspective, particularly from a balance perspective, I don't know if it would work, but I can't think of a good reason why the drones couldn't fly in atmo. Heck, I can't think of a reason why a cruiser couldn't fly in atmo! They'd be about the same size as an MCC...

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Klivve Cussler Ransoms Incorporated 49	Posted - 2012.08.20 18:22:00 - [1] - Quote Apologies if this has been suggested elsewhere. In addition to the Orbital Strikes from Eve players, it would be very cool if an Eve Players could send down drones, fighters, or figher-bombers on strafing (carpet bombing for the FBs) runs at the direction of Dust Bunnies. Just imagine a flight of Hammerheads, Fireflies, or even Cyclops dropping down out of the clouds, tearing up a stretch of map, and flying off back into space. Just imagine the look on that smug Pod Pilot's face when half of his 2 million-isk-each fighter-bombers get shot down by swarm launchers...
STB Vermaak Doe 558	Posted - 2012.08.20 18:23:00 - [2] - Quote I like it but eve players probably won't take that chance
Klivve Cussler Ransoms Incorporated 49	Posted - 2012.08.20 18:27:00 - [3] - Quote It would have to be worth it. Drones aren't that big a risk, and make sense as a tactical fire support option, but Fighter-bombers would have to be able to take out installations or buildings in order to be worth the risk.
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.20 18:29:00 - [4] - Quote Klivve Cussler wrote: Apologies if this has been suggested elsewhere. In addition to the Orbital Strikes from Eve players, it would be very cool if an Eve Players could send down drones, fighters, or figher-bombers on strafing (carpet bombing for the FBs) runs at the direction of Dust Bunnies. Just imagine a flight of Hammerheads, Fireflies, or even Cyclops dropping down out of the clouds, tearing up a stretch of map, and flying off back into space. Just imagine the look on that smug Pod Pilot's face when half of his 2 million-isk-each fighter-bombers get shot down by swarm launchers... Fighter Bombers are more like 20 million each (current Jita price on Cyclops is about 28 million ISK each) And I think its could be a good idea, but what happens when we have fighter/bomber style vehicles to fly ourselves in?
Ronin Odachi 38th Joint Tactical Command 127	Posted - 2012.08.20 18:30:00 - [5] - Quote Wouldn't make sense for drones; coming in from orbit would be way outside of their operating range. As for fighter(bomber)s, Dust will have its own fast-movers, so it seems to me that it could just create a problem with too many aircraft.
Klivve Cussler Ransoms Incorporated 49	Posted - 2012.08.20 18:37:00 - [6] - Quote Quote: Wouldn't make sense for drones; coming in from orbit would be way outside of their operating range. None of the orbital strike mechanics make sense Eve's range limitations. A destroyer has a max range of 10-15km. If it can do an orbital strike, then drones can too. The solution to too many aircraft is usually more effective AA defenses. Also, for on-map fast-movers to be useful, the maps are going to need to be a lot bigger. I know that's coming. And when it does, they'll be plenty of room for the occasional carrier-based airstrike.
Arbor Viridanus Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 196	Posted - 2012.08.20 18:57:00 - [7] - Quote It would probably require dedicated drones for orbital attacks, since I doubt the current drones could fly in an atmosphere. I'm pretty sure they said that OB required dedicated OB weaponry, so it seems likely that they'd do it that way for non-lore reasons too.
Aq'sa L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 44	Posted - 2012.08.20 19:11:00 - [8] - Quote 160km (99 miles) -2000km (1200 miles) = LEO Yup, within sniper range. But actual ranges would limit to very few Eve ships able to snipe that far. PS- Don't mention the in-space physics that make our ships act more like crafts in a fluid than in a frictionless vacuum. ;) The Eve Universe strives to be the ultimate Sci-Fi simulator. Every year it gets better, this year- DUST 514 is a big part of that. Sometime in the future I'm sure they will fix the irrational science things for us OCD players- Until then have fun and don't run the numbers by your physics professor.
Klivve Cussler Ransoms Incorporated 49	Posted - 2012.08.20 19:35:00 - [9] - Quote Physics have a place in any sim game, but I'm not talking about real-world physics, just cinematic physics. The physics engine of any game makes things feel and act "real", but rarely do they reflect any sort of real-life physics model. So, I don't see why Dropships can fly from a physics perspective, but I don't care. They fly and they're cool. Ditto for the Eve ships. By the same logic, drones should be able to operate in atmosphere, because it would be cool. Heck, half of them have wings and look aerodynamic for no good reason. They'd look awesome in Dust. Actually, (this just occured to me), it makes sense for the fast-movers in Dust to actually BE the fighters and fighter-bombers from Eve...not controlled by the carriers, but deployed and owned by Dust pilots, but still the same item.
Ronin Odachi 38th Joint Tactical Command 127	Posted - 2012.08.20 20:52:00 - [10] - Quote Klivve Cussler wrote: Physics have a place in any sim game, but I'm not talking about real-world physics, just cinematic physics. The physics engine of any game makes things feel and act "real", but rarely do they reflect any sort of real-life physics model. So, I don't see why Dropships can fly from a physics perspective, but I don't care. They fly and they're cool. Ditto for the Eve ships. By the same logic, drones should be able to operate in atmosphere, because it would be cool. Heck, half of them have wings and look aerodynamic for no good reason. They'd look awesome in Dust. Actually, (this just occured to me), it makes sense for the fast-movers in Dust to actually BE the fighters and fighter-bombers from Eve...not controlled by the carriers, but deployed and owned by Dust pilots, but still the same item. If you don't see how dropships can fly, look no further than the Harrier or the F35. DS's have VTOL thrusters. The idea of having optimal and falloff ranges in EVE is a bit silly, but necessary from a gameplay perspective. Realistically, rounds (or lasers, for that matter) would keep going in a straight line until they hit something, so shooting a planet from orbit with a destroyer actually makes a great deal of sense. Controlling drones from that far, however, is another matter. Also, like someone said, they aren't exactly built for atmospheric flight.

Rhadiem Algintal Core Gallente Federation 496	Posted - 2012.08.20 20:53:00 - [11] - Quote Better to have Dust controlled Fighters and Fighter-Bombers. Besides, I imagine like most EVE ships, they have Trit in them which I believe does not react well to atmosphere. It could be cool to have Dust drone controllers though.. perhaps interfacing with the pilot suit, or a command suit on the ground.
Klivve Cussler Ransoms Incorporated 49	Posted - 2012.08.20 21:07:00 - [12] - Quote Quote: Realistically, rounds (or lasers, for that matter) would keep going in a straight line until they hit something, so shooting a planet from orbit with a destroyer actually makes a great deal of sense. Controlling drones from that far, however, is another matter. Also, like someone said, they aren't exactly built for atmospheric flight. We aren't talking about realism. We're talking about gameplay. However, since the US air force can control a drone at 4000km range, I don't think 150km is a problem, especially since you have line of site. The point is: Would it look cool? Hell yes. Would it add meaningful gameplay? yes, since a strafe damage template is different from a bombardment and would give Dusties more flexibility in requesting support. Would it require more risk for Pod Pilots? Yes, some, depending on the class of drone/fighter. Is that good? Yes. Would it look "realistic" That is, does it fit within the IP to have drones floating around the battlefield? Yes Is it already part of the vision to have airstrikes in addition to orbital bombardments?: Yes
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.20 21:17:00 - [13] - Quote Aq'sa wrote: 160km (99 miles) -2000km (1200 miles) = LEO Yup, within sniper range. But actual ranges would limit to very few Eve ships able to snipe that far. PS- Don't mention the in-space physics that make our ships act more like crafts in a fluid than in a frictionless vacuum. ;) The Eve Universe strives to be the ultimate Sci-Fi simulator. Every year it gets better, this year- DUST 514 is a big part of that. Sometime in the future I'm sure they will fix the irrational science things for us OCD players- Until then have fun and don't run the numbers by your physics professor. If you were actually at 160KM altitude, your velocity in the planetary reference frame would put you over the target area for about 2 min out of every 90. Also, your "orbit" would not last very long due to atmospheric drag (assuming an atmosphere similar to the Earths which may or may not be the case) And a solar storm would change it dramatically as well (but Eve doesn't have those either) But since CCP can't make actual Orbits in this game, I guess we will have to give them a pass. My wish: Eve had enough "real" physics to make things really interesting, but then of course, Eve would be even harder to understand...I mean who has the time to spend several hours online learning the finer points of orbital mechanics just to be able to do a little small gang PvP? Simple way to fix all the altitude/orbit problems...Antigravity!
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.20 21:20:00 - [14] - Quote Klivve Cussler wrote: Quote: Realistically, rounds (or lasers, for that matter) would keep going in a straight line until they hit something, so shooting a planet from orbit with a destroyer actually makes a great deal of sense. Controlling drones from that far, however, is another matter. Also, like someone said, they aren't exactly built for atmospheric flight. We aren't talking about realism. We're talking about gameplay. However, since the US air force can control a drone at 4000km range, I don't think 150km is a problem, especially since you have line of site. US Military Drones are controlled sometimes via satellite communications links from Geostationary communications satellites at an altitude of about 35,780Km. But also, drones in real life require a hell of a lot more bandwidth than 5Mb/sec. And some types of communications links don't do so well penetrating atmosphere (water vapor in the air attenuates 150dB of power at 60GHz frequency...thats like 1 out of 1,000,000,000,000,000...) So drone control range in real life is arbitrarily large compared to the 100Km ranges in Eve and the bandwidth required to control them is arbitrarily large as well....comparitively speaking. But lets not go too far trying to apply physics in Eve.
Ronin Odachi 38th Joint Tactical Command 127	Posted - 2012.08.20 21:24:00 - [15] - Quote Klivve Cussler wrote: We aren't talking about realism. We're talking about gameplay. However, since the US air force can control a drone at 4000km range, I don't think 150km is a problem, especially since you have line of site. The point is: Would it look cool? Hell yes. Would it add meaningful gameplay? yes, since a strafe damage template is different from a bombardment and would give Dusties more flexibility in requesting support. Would it require more risk for Pod Pilots? Yes, some, depending on the class of drone/fighter. Is that good? Yes. Would it look "realistic" That is, does it fit within the IP to have drones floating around the battlefield? Yes Is it already part of the vision to have airstrikes in addition to orbital bombardments?: Yes What I was saying is that gameplay matches realism, so being able to hit a planet from orbit makes sense. However, you still haven't addressed that these drones, built for space, would not function in atmosphere. If they did implement drones, they would have to be of an entirely different type. Based on the size of the drones in the image you linked, I would say that those are personal drones, deployed by Dusters. Far too small to be able to enter and exit atmo, unless I'm missing your point with that. If you're saying they wouldn't look out of place, I don't think that was ever contested. I'm not entirely convinced it would pose more risk for capsuleers, unless the drones were orbital support-specific. Even then, I expect that, barring CCP implements a mechanic to prevent this, alliances will create bookmarks at different points in orbit, and jump their bombarders around. Unless you have to be at the warp in for the planet, skyfire batteries will likely pose a larger threat than other ships, given a good pilot. You do, however, raise a good point with the future vision trailer, as he was talking to the capsuleer about an airstrike, not another merc. Perhaps they are planning to add it already, I don't know; but I think that the orbital bombardment is plenty of EVE influence already. Though since the dispersion pattern and damage would be different, it might not be so bad... Depends on how they would do it, IMO.
Klivve Cussler Ransoms Incorporated 49	Posted - 2012.08.20 21:36:00 - [16] - Quote I assume that when you set up a "fleet" or whatever with an Eve Pilot, you'll be able to "Warp to Battle", taking you to a point over the planet that has line of site on the battlefield. These wouldn't need to be generated dynamically, since the battlefield coordinates are static, the planet location is static, and the planets don't rotate, so no problems there. Then, as long as you are on grid to that point, within a certain range of the planet, you'll be able to initiate a strike at coordinates passed to you. I still don't see why drones couldn't operate in atmo. They have shields and armour, so re-entry isn't a problem. They have a huge acceleration, so they certainly have the thrust to get back into space, and if they have that much thrust, they can maintain altitude. Is it aerodynamics? There isn't much in Dust that is aerodynamically shaped now, and the shape of the shields probably determines aerodynamics more than the drone. Now, from a gameplay perspective, particularly from a balance perspective, I don't know if it would work, but I can't think of a good reason why the drones couldn't fly in atmo. Heck, I can't think of a reason why a cruiser couldn't fly in atmo! They'd be about the same size as an MCC...
Ronin Odachi 38th Joint Tactical Command 127	Posted - 2012.08.20 22:03:00 - [17] - Quote Klivve Cussler wrote: I assume that when you set up a "fleet" or whatever with an Eve Pilot, you'll be able to "Warp to Battle", taking you to a point over the planet that has line of site on the battlefield. These wouldn't need to be generated dynamically, since the battlefield coordinates are static, the planet location is static, and the planets don't rotate, so no problems there. Then, as long as you are on grid to that point, within a certain range of the planet, you'll be able to initiate a strike at coordinates passed to you. I still don't see why drones couldn't operate in atmo. They have shields and armour, so re-entry isn't a problem. They have a huge acceleration, so they certainly have the thrust to get back into space, and if they have that much thrust, they can maintain altitude. Is it aerodynamics? There isn't much in Dust that is aerodynamically shaped now, and the shape of the shields probably determines aerodynamics more than the drone. Now, from a gameplay perspective, particularly from a balance perspective, I don't know if it would work, but I can't think of a good reason why the drones couldn't fly in atmo. Heck, I can't think of a reason why a cruiser couldn't fly in atmo! They'd be about the same size as an MCC... Well, non-aerodynamic craft are able to fly in atmo due to Vertical Take-Off and Landing systems. Drones built for use in space wouldn't be equipped with VTOL systems, so they wouldn't function in atmo. Without them, they would have to be moving anywhere from 11.8 to 13 kilometers per second to stay airborne. I don't think that you can make wings out of shields; they don't work that way. The craft itself is what would be taken into account. Otherwise, vehicles would have to lower their shields to allow mercs to get in, which we don't see happening.
Whispercrow Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 102	Posted - 2012.08.20 22:05:00 - [18] - Quote OK, time to nerd out and get all RP'ish. CCP, take notice if you want to protect your programming decisions! Modern drones have all the control computers they need hundreds if not thousands of miles away. They also don't have to manuever in space at high velocities while attempting to maintain orbits and movement vectors, calculate attacks, maintain heat and power control, etc. Being effected by ECM is also rare as few enemies try. In fact, until that one US drone was 'tricked' by Iran, it's never really been done, and it's likely a small "drone ECM arms race" will occur. I think it's safe to assume that the drones in EVE are mostly just crazy weapons and engine platforms with minimal on-board computers, and instead rely upon the ship they are launched from to do all that legwork for them. Which, realistically, would explain the bandwidth and drone control issues... if all that was built-in, you could use as many drones as you can carry with no limitations on the ship launching them. In addition, I think it's also fairly safe to guess that there's a lot of 'basic' ECM and ECCM going on we don't see. Slowing target locks and the like, and that anything past a certain distance could render drones 'hackable', where the opponent could take control or deactivate them. So, naturally, there is a 'safe zone' around the ship at which it can maintain absolute control over its minions. Also, the ships would have to have numerous communications antennae covering their surface, as just one could easily be knocked out. Rather than a large powerful one, there are many small transmitters that provide redundant coverage, and they'd need to be of lesser power but have sufficient bandwidth. That would restrict the range from thousands of KM to dozens. RP stuff ends. Now, would I like to see ship-based drones strafing the HELL out of ground emplacements in Dust? ABSOLUTELY. I, personally, would happily send dozens of 1mil ISK drones to their demise if I could have my friends get their butts saved by waves of attack ships dropping in from orbit. But there's range issues involved, and it would require a bunch of extra programming to provide very little benefit. There's just not much bang for the buck, at least until the game is complete and running with everything else.
Anabus Revakarii Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 2	Posted - 2012.08.20 22:10:00 - [19] - Quote I think Eve Fighter's and Bombers entering the Dust Area would be a great interaction on par with orbital striking. Something to keep on the idea table for the future.
Klivve Cussler Ransoms Incorporated 49	Posted - 2012.08.20 22:16:00 - [20] - Quote I don't think it would be too bad. The eve side isn't too bad: Once you've targeted a ground target, assign drones to attack it. The drones would have to go off-grid, maybe "warping" towards the planet. They can't do that now (except fighters), so that's new. From the Dust side, the code to have a computer controlled air craft is already in place: The skycranes. You'd need different routing and of course new models, but the code is there. So, the drones would fly from one side of the map to the other, and when they neared the target, they'd open fire on it. After the one pass, they leave the battlefield, and return to the grid in Eve. Not trivial, of course, since we're talking about real-time interactivity between two games and actually physically passing assets from one to the other and back, but not ridiculously outrageous either. I agree that other core game mechanics come first, but this is a cool "future feature"

Whispercrow Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 102	Posted - 2012.08.20 22:30:00 - [21] - Quote Oh, no doubt, "future feature" it could be great. And I agree it makes much more sense with Fighters and Fighter-Bombers. However... that's a sizable cost investment on the EVE side, for very little return on the Dust side. If fights give you 50-70k isk, I highly doubt people will be willing to risk Billions of ISK in EVE to have a chance of changing the outcome in a Dust battle. Because the carrier WOULD have to be there, and a great target for enemies. On the upside, some people would see that as a PvP opportunity, but there would have to be some more motivation methinks.
Klivve Cussler Ransoms Incorporated 49	Posted - 2012.08.20 22:36:00 - [22] - Quote True. Though I was thinking that since fighters and fighter-bombers in Eve are supposed to be piloted vehicles (not by clones but by crew) that it makes sense for the eventual Dust ground-based fighters and fighter-bombers to be variants of the existing Eve craft.


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