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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Grit Breather
BetaMax.
660
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Posted - 2012.08.01 20:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Some people here have been claiming 15,000 eHP on tanks. Good heavies can get to what, 3-4,000 eHP? Well those numbers don't make much sense to me. They're too high.
Have a look at this. It's the spec page for a Megathron on the evepedia. The base reading are 6211 HP shield and 6641 HP armour. EVE has different damage types and resistances (much more complex than Dust) but let's exadurate and say it's a 50% resistance for both shield and armour. That brings us to a base of 13,000 HP and about 20,000 eHP. The Megathron is over 900 metres long.
You can't really be serious and claim a heavy has a quarter of its eHP and a tank has almost the same. That's bloody insane.
Now I'm not crying stuff is OP. I'm saying the figures currently in Dust are way off tune with those in EVE. Assuming HP is the same measure (and it should be), there is no way this is can be right.
CCP, please do something to adjust this. |
OwnD07
BetaMax.
6
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Posted - 2012.08.01 20:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the scales in each game are completely different. It doesn't matter that much to me though, since I don't play Eve (yet). |
Draco Dustflier
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
45
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Posted - 2012.08.01 20:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
i think its so that the weaker people in eve won't be able to level the battlefield whenever they feel like it. how would you feel if the most basic weapon in eve could one shot your entire squad of prototypes? |
Just Bad
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2012.08.01 20:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think it's fine as it is so long as concepts are the same across the two titles for 'universe' consistency where it doesn't negatively impact experience. In short stats saying Heavy Prototype Dropsuit that has 0.000000000000001200* HP may make things consistent with the EVE statistics but it doesn't make for easy reading. |
Debacle Nano
Shadow Company HQ
639
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Posted - 2012.08.01 20:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yea it's been scaled down a lot. 1 hit point in EVE =/= 1 hit point in Dust 514.
It's probably like 1/10 or even 1/15 of what it is in EVE. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
808
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Posted - 2012.08.01 20:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Debacle Nano wrote:Yea it's been scaled down a lot. 1 hit point in EVE =/= 1 hit point in Dust 514.
It's probably like 1/10 or even 1/15 of what it is in EVE.
yup its a very simple difference in scales....not a problem by any means. |
Grit Breather
BetaMax.
660
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Posted - 2012.08.01 20:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:Debacle Nano wrote:Yea it's been scaled down a lot. 1 hit point in EVE =/= 1 hit point in Dust 514.
It's probably like 1/10 or even 1/15 of what it is in EVE. yup its a very simple difference in scales....not a problem by any means. I'm all for that but it should be justified somehow. It's like a person is 1.8 height and a streen is 1.8 long. But the first is metres and the second is KM. There has to be some sort of scale. Maybe HP for EVE and mHP or uHP for Dust. We can't just have them both saying HP, that's bloody confusing.
Also keep in mind both pieces of gear will be on the same market. A player in EVE could easily buy a Magathron and a Surya and not know the real difference because they're both in HP. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
808
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Posted - 2012.08.01 20:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Grit Breather wrote:Lurchasaurus wrote:Debacle Nano wrote:Yea it's been scaled down a lot. 1 hit point in EVE =/= 1 hit point in Dust 514.
It's probably like 1/10 or even 1/15 of what it is in EVE. yup its a very simple difference in scales....not a problem by any means. I'm all for that but it should be justified somehow. It's like a person is 1.8 height and a streen is 1.8 long. But the first is metres and the second is KM. There has to be some sort of scale. Maybe HP for EVE and mHP or uHP for Dust. We can't just have them both saying HP, that's bloody confusing. Also keep in mind both pieces of gear will be on the same market. A player in EVE could easily buy a Magathron and a Surya and not know the real difference because they're both in HP.
who knows? they have yet to implement that stuff. They might even completely overhaul EVE so their numbers match ours.
also, any EVE player worth his salt knows better and they will check that stuff before making a purchase. |
Grit Breather
BetaMax.
660
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Posted - 2012.08.01 21:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
That's all true. I'm just saying that as we're all in the same universe we need to be using the same system of measure. It doesn't really make much sense when even a frigate can't OHK a proto suit... |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
808
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Posted - 2012.08.01 21:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Grit Breather wrote:That's all true. I'm just saying that as we're all in the same universe we need to be using the same system of measure. It doesn't really make much sense when even a frigate can't OHK a proto suit...
lol first of all, that wont be the case as there would obviously be a conversion in numbers....
secondly, CCP has a habit of completely overhauling entire game mechanics on the reg, so i wouldnt be suprised if they just changed the numbers for them during the merge. |
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Debacle Nano
Shadow Company HQ
639
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Posted - 2012.08.01 21:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Don't worry, we will still die from orbital strikes. |
Just Bad
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2012.08.01 21:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
I don't know, the 135+ million* for the Mega's hull without fittings probably hits at more than a bit of a difference - that and when you put Blasters on them they work as you'd expect :p
* No idea what it's at just right now, damn Minerals
I doubt they've put effort into there being a scale across the two games when there's balancing to be done but you could compare and constrast HP gains across the two from the various armour plates and see if there's anything there. |
Sandromin Hes
Sand Mercenary Corps Inc.
204
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Posted - 2012.08.01 21:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Its quite a simple change in numbers: for shields, it's Megajoules/Gigajoules for shields on tanks & soldiers, Terrajoules/petajoules for ships; and for armor, it's measured by mass of armor in question- ships have Gigagrams/Terragrams or even Petagrams, while soldiers have kilograms, and tanks have megagrams. |
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GM Unicorn
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
467
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Posted - 2012.08.01 21:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
As said before by other players, it's just a matter of scales. You are not actually able to shoot from DUST 514 environment to EVE Online one, so the hit points are not cross consistent because (so far) we don't need that. |
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blqkt2011
RestlessSpirits
25
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Posted - 2012.08.01 22:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
Debacle Nano wrote:Don't worry, we will still die from orbital strikes. I won't cause I have a sheild umbrella LOL Whats the point of ground troops if we will all die from orbital strikes. ?? |
Debacle Nano
Shadow Company HQ
639
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Posted - 2012.08.01 22:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
blqkt2011 wrote:Debacle Nano wrote:Don't worry, we will still die from orbital strikes. I won't cause I have a sheild umbrella LOL Whats the point of ground troops if we will all die from orbital strikes. ??
The orbital strikes will be very limited and costly, but deadly in certain situations. |
ilafey
29
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Posted - 2012.08.01 22:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
GM Unicorn wrote:As said before by other players, it's just a matter of scales. You are not actually able to shoot from DUST 514 environment to EVE Online one, so the hit points are not cross consistent because (so far) we don't need that.
That's odd because I heard there were Anti-Spaceship guns in dust and orbital strikes in eve. |
Mo Gallas Gentralde
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
178
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Posted - 2012.08.01 22:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Those are effects, such as "does % of max hp damage" or "does a minimum amount of damage that would destroy x type of ship/suit" kind of deal. Its not actually our weapon systems, nor their weapon systems doing the strikes either way. its an intermediary system.
This means we don't need to have numbers that balance in order to have balanced ratio attacks.
DUST ^ | V Intermediary systems ^ | V EVE
The intermediary will do the calculation of effects for us. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.08.01 22:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Megathron perfectly strikes a dust 514 battlefield wrecking perfectly for 20,000,000 damage. |
Swufy Gnomenclatur
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
10
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Posted - 2012.08.01 22:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
GM Unicorn wrote:As said before by other players, it's just a matter of scales. You are not actually able to shoot from DUST 514 environment to EVE Online one, so the hit points are not cross consistent because (so far) we don't need that.
Yes, but as posted earlier, aren't EVE players the ones buying all of the equipment supplied to us Dusters? At least include some disclaimer in the item description: *For Dust encounters only. Otherwise, I agree, match up the units. |
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Leovarian L Lavitz
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
278
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Posted - 2012.08.01 23:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
1 point of EVE HP is approximately equal to 900 points of dust hitpoints.
I calculated this by comparing the basic railgun in eve to the basic tank railgun (militia) in dust. They should fire approximately the same size rounds, and have roughly the same firing speeds.
The militia railgun does around 900 damage, and the civilian railgun does one damage.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item_database.php?id=i3638 Divide your damage by 900 to see how much you would do to an eve starship, or multiply your starship damage by 900 to see how much you would do to dusters.
Additionally, the round will have an approximate 10m aoe on impact due to atmospheric transference, estimated by the signature resolution of the turret. /4
So, a single civilian railgun will drop 900 damage over 40 meters, not enough to scratch the paint on a tank or kill a heavy, but enough to kill everything else. Most people run two on their rookieships, so 1800 damage, which will kill most infantry, and lavs.
Moving up, the devs are talking about orbital bombarding destroyers. Let's use my thrasher fit with a rack of 280mm artillery II with tremor S ammunition. That is 8 x 8 x 900 = 57600 damage, and I have a rack of 7, so x 7 = 403,200 damage over a range of 80 meters. (a scout can sprint over 7 meters per second, so in around 11 seconds he may be able to avoid the bombardment. LAVs base speed is 40m/s, so he can easily avoid it. HAVs base speed is around 25m/s.).
Larger ships, lets leap to the 5 million damage titan doomsday, x 900 = 4.5 billion damage. Or, glassing the field.
Battleship weaponry. Let's look at railguns this time (as shown in the e3 beta build trailer). 425mm Railgun II 3.63 x 32(Spike L) x 8(turrets) x 900 (conversion factor)= 836,352 damage over 100 meters or so.
Will these numbers actually be used? probably not, from this we can see that anything above a rookie ship can insta-gib anything on the field. The thing that will be used are the scaling radii of the orbital strikes. Bigger ships, bigger strikes.
Additionally, Ewar strikes will also be used (as mentioned by devs).
EDIT: Now, if they add in specific resistance modules (explosive/em/therm/kin) like eve, then you can coordinate with your striker for single turret precision strikes ontop of yourself. You will survive while your enemy will be destroyed. Such things are possible. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
808
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 23:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
hrm......interesting.......obviously CCP already has this down since they have videos of it and they probably know what numbers their gonna use, but nice to at least get an idea of the scales we are talking about here. |
Carilito
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
345
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 00:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lol my thoughts exactly but play eve for a bit and you can see the scale. |
Icy Tiger
496
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 00:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
ilafey wrote:GM Unicorn wrote:As said before by other players, it's just a matter of scales. You are not actually able to shoot from DUST 514 environment to EVE Online one, so the hit points are not cross consistent because (so far) we don't need that. That's odd because I heard there were Anti-Spaceship guns in dust and orbital strikes in eve.
He means the players themselves. Yes there will be anti ship guns, but we wont actually control them manually. |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
324
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 02:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
The numbers in both games don't have to be the same. In fact it's better if they aren't, because that way CCP can fiddle with planetary bombardment balance in a way where only one of the games is affected by a change. For example, they find that bombardments aren't doing enough damage...so they increase the amount of damage the weapon does in Dust. Nothing on the Eve side changes for that. The idea is that the Eve / Dust link would be a "simple" middleware app that sends basic information across and lets the other side worry about the details of how it gets done.
ie: Eve tells Dust, "I"m bombarding the requested coordinates". Then Dust says, "Ok, you're bombarding with weapon X which I know does Y damage in Z radius". |
howard sanchez
Conspiratus Immortalis
448
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 02:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Debacle Nano wrote:Yea it's been scaled down a lot. 1 hit point in EVE =/= 1 hit point in Dust 514.
It's probably like 1/10 or even 1/15 of what it is in EVE.
514:1 |
Mo Gallas Gentralde
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 03:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
Leovarian L Lavitz wrote:1 point of EVE HP is approximately equal to 900 points of dust hitpoints. I calculated this by comparing the basic railgun in eve to the basic tank railgun (militia) in dust. They should fire approximately the same size rounds, and have roughly the same firing speeds. The militia railgun does around 900 damage, and the civilian railgun does one damage. http://eve.battleclinic.com/item_database.php?id=i3638Divide your damage by 900 to see how much you would do to an eve starship, or multiply your starship damage by 900 to see how much you would do to dusters. Additionally, the round will have an approximate 10m aoe on impact due to atmospheric transference, estimated by the signature resolution of the turret. /4 So, a single civilian railgun will drop 900 damage over 40 meters, not enough to scratch the paint on a tank or kill a heavy, but enough to kill everything else. Most people run two on their rookieships, so 1800 damage, which will kill most infantry, and lavs. Moving up, the devs are talking about orbital bombarding destroyers. Let's use my thrasher fit with a rack of 280mm artillery II with tremor S ammunition. That is 8 x 8 x 900 = 57600 damage, and I have a rack of 7, so x 7 = 403,200 damage over a range of 80 meters. (a scout can sprint over 7 meters per second, so in around 11 seconds he may be able to avoid the bombardment. LAVs base speed is 40m/s, so he can easily avoid it. HAVs base speed is around 25m/s.). Larger ships, lets leap to the 5 million damage titan doomsday, x 900 = 4.5 billion damage. Or, glassing the field. Battleship weaponry. Let's look at railguns this time (as shown in the e3 beta build trailer). 425mm Railgun II 3.63 x 32(Spike L) x 8(turrets) x 900 (conversion factor)= 836,352 damage over 100 meters or so. Will these numbers actually be used? probably not, from this we can see that anything above a rookie ship can insta-gib anything on the field. The thing that will be used are the scaling radii of the orbital strikes. Bigger ships, bigger strikes. Additionally, Ewar strikes will also be used (as mentioned by devs). EDIT: Now, if they add in specific resistance modules (explosive/em/therm/kin) like eve, then you can coordinate with your striker for single turret precision strikes ontop of yourself. You will survive while your enemy will be destroyed. Such things are possible.
Calculating all of this is like... calculating what EVE capsuleers should be paying their crews for... I mean like what.. a Titan has about 70,000-120,000 crew members onboard, but you never actually have to pay them for their services? There are things that "are just done" and "translated over" in order to simplify the game somewhat.
Can you imagine what it would be like, if Capsuleers had to manage the people on their ships akin to how sports teams manage their athletes? Trading those worth "Second in command" status aboard a ship for X# of "High Value Crew" or somesuch... then having to manage all their salaries?
I can tell you one thing. those large guilds/corporations wouldn't have so much money to wave around if such a thing actually happened.
This is also akin to ships from EVE having direct attacks upon the Dust field. Highly unlikely that any and all ships will be allowed to launch strikes. I expect a module of some kind with a specially designed ship for atmospheric assaults, due to the fact that the upper atmosphere can deflect and incinerate shots if they are not prepared correctly. (also gravity bending etc which capsuleers don't have to worry about in the void)
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Arceus Evoxazon
Hikahotaru
119
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Posted - 2012.08.02 03:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
My name is Arceus Evoxazon and this is my favorite thread on the Dust Forum. |
Raynor Ragna
266
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 03:58:00 -
[29] - Quote
Grit Breather wrote:Lurchasaurus wrote:Debacle Nano wrote:Yea it's been scaled down a lot. 1 hit point in EVE =/= 1 hit point in Dust 514.
It's probably like 1/10 or even 1/15 of what it is in EVE. yup its a very simple difference in scales....not a problem by any means. I'm all for that but it should be justified somehow. It's like a person is 1.8 height and a streen is 1.8 long. But the first is metres and the second is KM. There has to be some sort of scale. Maybe HP for EVE and mHP or uHP for Dust. We can't just have them both saying HP, that's bloody confusing. Also keep in mind both pieces of gear will be on the same market. A player in EVE could easily buy a Magathron and a Surya and not know the real difference because they're both in HP.
In eve I remember the CPU being measured in Teraflops. But no one refrences tera when they talk about their CPU.
Really the different should be in the uHP or pHP range. As for damage conversions with orbital strikes... I'd figure that atmosphere interferes with Eves true damage. |
Thick McRun Fast
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
177
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Posted - 2012.08.02 05:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
Raynor Ragna wrote: I'd figure that atmosphere interferes with Eves true damage.
What youGÇÖre seeing now is the targeting laser used to aim my battleshipGÇÖs six 425 millimeter railgun turrets. At this altitude, the gravity of your planet will augment the standard launch velocity of each solid projectile to speeds well beyond operational specifications, enough to obliterate anything within half a kilometer of the impact site. Anything between that location and two kilometers from ground zero will suffer a worse fate, as the antimatter suspended in each shell escapes its containment field and expands in a random dispersion pattern, colliding with the ambient normal matter on the ground GÇô buildings, trees, children, everything. Whatever these particles touch will experience matter disassociation on an atomic level as, piece by piece, they are reduced to unidentifiable residual particles. With a single thought, I can reduce your entire city to a smoldering crater; the boiling wind rushing in to replace the void left behind will be laced with dust particles that were once the bodies of everyone you know and love. -Omvistus |
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