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Gauder Berwyck
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
217
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Posted - 2012.08.01 08:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
So yeah... you play for a couple of hours, and the SP gain has diminished from when you started.
I don't have a problem with this exactly! Just some of the underlaying mechanics.
First tho, let me explain just WHY I want/need/request a change in this system. At the moment, with no feedback from the game why you have scored as you did, it's quite frustrating to see the diminishing returns in SP from game to game throughout the night. Especially if you are green to the game, I can see quite a few people scratching their head and go "what the ****? I did better now than that game an hour ago, and I only get this pittance of SP?!!"
The sollution is very simple. Add something that tells us how this diminishing return affects our SP scores. If it's a number to show the multiplier for this game, how long remains of your "happy hour" or anything... Just let people know what is going on!
So yeah, please fix this CCP, it should be simple enough :D |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 09:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
In centre of circle, an added line of text saying "playtime modifier: 1.0x" when you start, and dropping as you play?
I'm backing this idea. +1 to OP. |
KingBabar
37
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Posted - 2012.08.01 10:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
I totally agree with this, some form of feedback is important, especially for keeping new players from tearing their hair off. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.08.01 11:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sounds like a great way to curb potential frustration. +1 |
Badly Owned
xOne Man Armyx
49
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Posted - 2012.08.01 13:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
like and bumped |
willbaforce
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.08.01 14:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Agree, would be really useful to see - both for new players and old alike. |
D Park
26
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Posted - 2012.08.01 14:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
I've got a bunch of questions. I looked through the history and could not find answers.
Has CCP said if the diminishing returns system will carry over into the full game?
If we don't know, do you think it should?
If we get better information on the multiplier (like the OP suggested) what would that do to your play patterns? Would you limit your play? Would that be a good thing?
What relationship should this have to purchased skill boosters? CCP have to take into account the game mechanics impact on potential revenue streams. What balance should CCP maintain?
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
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Posted - 2012.08.01 15:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
D Park wrote:If we get better information on the multiplier (like the OP suggested) what would that do to your play patterns? Would you limit your play? Would that be a good thing? Don't know about everyone else, but I know that I won't change my behaviour with regard to playtime in the game based on the numbers, but it will help me to be less frustrated if it's clear what kind of multiplier is being applied to this, assuming it carries over into the full version.
And I believe it should carry over, because if it doesn't, the players with too much time on their hands will have even more of an advantage over casual players than they already get. Passive skilling SHOULD be the primary method of SP gain. |
Draco Dustflier
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
45
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Posted - 2012.08.01 16:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:D Park wrote:If we get better information on the multiplier (like the OP suggested) what would that do to your play patterns? Would you limit your play? Would that be a good thing? Don't know about everyone else, but I know that I won't change my behaviour with regard to playtime in the game based on the numbers, but it will help me to be less frustrated if it's clear what kind of multiplier is being applied to this, assuming it carries over into the full version. And I believe it should carry over, because if it doesn't, the players with too much time on their hands will have even more of an advantage over casual players than they already get. Passive skilling SHOULD be the primary method of SP gain.
wouldn't passive skilling give longtime players the advantage? Noobs wont like that. |
Fuma Centuri
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
107
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Posted - 2012.08.01 16:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
I would much prefer a change to the diminishing returns.
My understanding is that CCP wants to stop people from playing too much and being 100x better than a person who can only play 5 hours a week. A nice method of controlling how much "boost" is possible while at the same time giving players an easy indicator is to set an official amount of boots SP/day that is possible. It could be something like 100k SP or whatever and reset with daily downtime.
The boost mechanic would be that every battle while the boost is possible, your total SP earnings are doubled. So if you get 15k SP for a match and have boost available, you get 15+15. The remaining boost then is 85k. Once your 100k extra is used up, you just earn normal SP. Once you get more than X battles per day, your SP gains will be gradually reduced with a message saying that SP is reduced due to too many battles. |
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VicBoss
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres
135
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Posted - 2012.08.01 17:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
+1 for display of multiplier |
Chao Wolf
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
209
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Posted - 2012.08.01 18:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'd be happy with just a results page that breaks down how exactly you got what you got. |
Scarving Beta
1
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Posted - 2012.08.01 19:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Another vote for display of multiplier within the SP gain circle. |
Just Bad
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2012.08.01 22:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Great idea. +1, liked, thumbs up'd, dugg and all that jazz. |
O Dokimos
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
4
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Posted - 2012.08.01 22:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
+1 show me the money! |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
414
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Posted - 2012.08.02 00:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Maybe show wp from match on the screen, Then it could be used to judge how much the sp per wp has dropped. Showing the multiplier from playing time would be nice. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
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Posted - 2012.08.02 00:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yeah, absolutely. There being zero indication of why you'd get a lot of SP one game, and then do better and get much less, was puzzling to me at first. I thought it was a bug or something else until I read that it was simply that you get a bonus for your initial game(s). |
Rhadiem
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
496
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Posted - 2012.08.02 01:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'm not sure how I feel about diminishing skill points, or gaining skill points at all..
Currently the game promotes grinding for skill points, and yet one of the great benefits of EVE over other MMO's is that you skill up passively over time. I want to play because it's fun, not because I have to do my daily grind in order to stay competitive. In EVE you work for isk, not skill points.
I'd be more supportive of weekly caps, where a long block of hours on a night would make you hit your cap. This way you could bot out for a night, or play a little through the week.
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Poultryge1st
NECROMONGER'S
1
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Posted - 2012.08.02 01:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
I think this is a great idea. Make it happen CCP. |
UnclS2
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
6
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Posted - 2012.08.02 01:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
+1 for a great idea |
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Gauder Berwyck
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
217
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Posted - 2012.08.02 07:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
Thanks for the feedback guys, now lets make CCP listen!
My own ideas about this is definitely influenced by the famous K.I.S.S. principle and my own time from MAG.
First off, I don't want to see passive SP gain being the main source of SP gain. I understand where you EVE players are coming from, but this is an FPS, not a space flight simulator. We need SP gain through matches, because that is the best way to see your character progress. Keep passive skilling, yes, but active skilling should, nay NEED to, provide more SPs than passive skilling! Call it the holy grail of FPSing, but a relative comparison can be to ask EVE to use active skilling more than passive skilling. It's just not the right game type for it...
That said, I am gonna leave the balancing of it to CCP, I am sure they have waaay more numbers about this that I do
As for implementation, let me begin with MAGs system, which I think worked pretty well. You have a 100% happy hour bonus that lasts for 1 hour per day. The clock starts ticking when you start your first game of the day, and keeps ticking for one hour (even if you are playing or just in the lobby between games). After a game is finished, just add a line of time remaining of happy hour bonus to the end game screen.
This might be a bit too simple tho, as we all know, Dust isn't your bog standard shooter. The next simple sollution is to give each match you play a decreasing bonus. Say you start the first match of the day with a 10x SP bonus. The next match is 9x, etc etc. Also, need to inform the players what sort of bonus was implemented to the score in the end game screen!
Then there is the gung-ho way, the best of both worlds just to make it needlessly complicated. Should we call it the CCP way? Anyway, there is a bonus, based on time played that day, kinda in a similarly mathematical calculation like the stacking bonus penalties. At the end game screen, you get a message telling you how much time you have left on your current "bonus level" and what that bonus level is.
Basically my views on it. I also like Garrets suggestion, also very simple, but to nitpick I believe the 1.0 should be saved for the base SP gain, and have the bonus display like 10.0 or something, and then decreasing down to 1.0. |
Veigar Mordekaiser
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
676
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 08:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
Passive skilling should definitely be the "main" method of upgrading skills, it hinders the ability to grind your way to victory. Doing well in a match should give you a nice boost to your skill progression, but I don't think that should be the primary way to get SP, that makes that guy with the 5-10 KDR - the one that screws you over to save himself, or pick up a kill while you get nuked at the objective - progress through the skills much faster than you, even if you're trying to be a team player and what-not.
One of my favorite things about the time I spent in EVE, was that if I knew that I wouldn't be able to play for a few days, I could set up a training queue, with a bunch of smaller skills, until I had it filled up to 23 hours or so, and I could just dump a level 5 in there that would take up the next 3 or 4 days to train. Then when I would finally be able to log on, -Ta Da- I would have a shiny new level 5 skill to play with.
That type of skilling makes being a newb so much easier, especially if you are starting with friends. If you are gonna be gone for 3 or 4 days, you can just put a few skills on to train, and while all of your friends will get a bit ahead of you with SP gain from matches, you wont be out of their league.
I personally would love to see the skill training system in Dust, look more synonymous to the skill training system in EVE. |
Akaruiwrx
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
2
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Posted - 2012.08.04 03:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Great idea OP. I fully support his +1 all the way. |
Dalton Smithe
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
45
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Posted - 2012.08.04 04:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Awesome idea, + 1 here.
Always have been curious how the point spread is calculated for ISK and SP |
Ashihayai
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2012.08.04 04:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
+1 for multiplier visual. Do it CCP. |
michael McG
Doomheim
28
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Posted - 2012.08.04 05:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
i would like to remove this function because i understand why but i dont get why you punish the players that can devote there time to the game. but i did think that it would keep server levels low. I have more than enough time to devote 6 hours a day if i want to but i will only play 2 because of the diminishing sp. I do agree and would like a break down of what i get from each match so i can better set up my plan for the next match. |
Dante Daedrik
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
97
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 07:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm really hating this diminishing sp. I consistently get high kills and am usually the only one on my team constantly hacking points while everyone else camps. Yet no matter how much work I seem to put in I am still rewarded with a measly ~30,000 SP |
DichromaticB3C
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2012.08.04 13:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:Passive skilling should definitely be the "main" method of upgrading skills, it hinders the ability to grind your way to victory. Doing well in a match should give you a nice boost to your skill progression, but I don't think that should be the primary way to get SP, that makes that guy with the 5-10 KDR - the one that screws you over to save himself, or pick up a kill while you get nuked at the objective - progress through the skills much faster than you, even if you're trying to be a team player and what-not.
One of my favorite things about the time I spent in EVE, was that if I knew that I wouldn't be able to play for a few days, I could set up a training queue, with a bunch of smaller skills, until I had it filled up to 23 hours or so, and I could just dump a level 5 in there that would take up the next 3 or 4 days to train. Then when I would finally be able to log on, -Ta Da- I would have a shiny new level 5 skill to play with.
That type of skilling makes being a newb so much easier, especially if you are starting with friends. If you are gonna be gone for 3 or 4 days, you can just put a few skills on to train, and while all of your friends will get a bit ahead of you with SP gain from matches, you wont be out of their league.
I personally would love to see the skill training system in Dust, look more synonymous to the skill training system in EVE.
I don't really agree. This isn't Eve. I highly enjoy Dust, but couldn't bring myself to ever try Eve. It's far to slow and complex for me personally. Passive skilling as the main method would cause even less gamers to be interested. You have to keep in mind this is a PS3 game. Sadly many console gamers get turned off by the complexity of the skill and fitting systems alone. Very few would want to play a game that rewarded them for not playing, or merely letting time pass.
Also KDR doesn't give you a very good picture of player performance. In a perfect game I go 0/0. There've been times I litterally oppressed an entire team with dropship fire for an entire match. I'm a huge pain on BioMass :-)
If a noob wants to lvl quick, he/she should gun for a tank or dropship. I've had gunners go +20/0. |
Ad ski
IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback
209
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 14:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
michael McG wrote:i would like to remove this function because i understand why but i dont get why you punish the players that can devote there time to the game. but i did think that it would keep server levels low. I have more than enough time to devote 6 hours a day if i want to but i will only play 2 because of the diminishing sp. I do agree and would like a break down of what i get from each match so i can better set up my plan for the next match. I agree. Me personally the game will become less fun because you're grinding every game just to be able to level up. People could just end up coming on for a couple of hours a day to get the bonus SP and then play something else. I have plenty of time to put into this game but seeing very little rewards at the end of the game is off putting. It also feels like why should you go out of your way to hack and protect stuff if you only earn a tiny bit more then those who sit with a sniper on top of a tower?. Maybe do it on rank or something. I.e the higher rank you are (or earned so much) the less you get. This would give new people a chance not to be so far behind . |
carpei contemno
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
2
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Posted - 2012.08.04 14:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
Count me in on this one too, +1 |
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Veigar Mordekaiser
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
676
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 20:48:00 -
[31] - Quote
DichromaticB3C wrote:Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:Passive skilling should definitely be the "main" method of upgrading skills, it hinders the ability to grind your way to victory. Doing well in a match should give you a nice boost to your skill progression, but I don't think that should be the primary way to get SP, that makes that guy with the 5-10 KDR - the one that screws you over to save himself, or pick up a kill while you get nuked at the objective - progress through the skills much faster than you, even if you're trying to be a team player and what-not.
One of my favorite things about the time I spent in EVE, was that if I knew that I wouldn't be able to play for a few days, I could set up a training queue, with a bunch of smaller skills, until I had it filled up to 23 hours or so, and I could just dump a level 5 in there that would take up the next 3 or 4 days to train. Then when I would finally be able to log on, -Ta Da- I would have a shiny new level 5 skill to play with.
That type of skilling makes being a newb so much easier, especially if you are starting with friends. If you are gonna be gone for 3 or 4 days, you can just put a few skills on to train, and while all of your friends will get a bit ahead of you with SP gain from matches, you wont be out of their league.
I personally would love to see the skill training system in Dust, look more synonymous to the skill training system in EVE. I don't really agree. This isn't Eve. I highly enjoy Dust, but couldn't bring myself to ever try Eve. It's far to slow and complex for me personally. Passive skilling as the main method would cause even less gamers to be interested. You have to keep in mind this is a PS3 game. Sadly many console gamers get turned off by the complexity of the skill and fitting systems alone. Very few would want to play a game that rewarded them for not playing, or merely letting time pass. Also KDR doesn't give you a very good picture of player performance. In a perfect game I go 0/0. There've been times I litterally oppressed an entire team with dropship fire for an entire match. I'm a huge pain on BioMass :-) If a noob wants to lvl quick, he/she should gun for a tank or dropship. I've had gunners go +20/0. No, it isn't EVE, and I'm not saying it should be. But the skill system is far more friendly to those that don't have the time to log on and play every day. In EVE you have to grind to get money, but as far as skills go, you don't have to be on more than 5 minutes to set up a skill queue that might take 5 days to train.
I'm also saying you should be "rewarded for not playing", you should definitely gain SP from playing matches, but passive skilling should be much more useful. I hate the idea that if I can't play for a week because I'm booked, I wont be able to set up a queue that will absorb most of the time I'm gone.
Learning the skill system really isn't hard; it's extremely confusing at first glance, but if you take 15 minutes to look around the market and decide what you want to do, and pick out the skill to do it, you get the hang of it really fast. EVE may not be "noob friendly", and Dust may not be either, but the players are. Sure there will always be that one ******* saying "FEED ME NOOBS", but there will always be more players willing to help the newcomers figure things out.
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Veigar Mordekaiser
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
676
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Posted - 2012.08.04 20:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ad ski wrote:Maybe do it on rank or something. I.e the higher rank you are (or earned so much) the less you get. This would give new people a chance not to be so far behind . That really isn't a good idea... The higher "rank" you are, the more SP you need. Reducing the amount you earn, as your total SP rises, would break the game. |
Scarving Beta
1
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Posted - 2012.08.11 22:07:00 -
[33] - Quote
Still agree with the multiplier thing - I imagine one of the reasons for implementing this is to avoid people blowing through the whole skill & equipment tree in a matter of weeks and then leaving the game.
Also once people get into the low-SP period of their gaming day, they'll be looking for other reasons to play than straight SP farming. So it opens the door to experiments that normally aren't done until players have reached the level cap.
This idea sounds more and more like one born from the CCP psychologists - we're playing with their games, and they're playing with our heads :D |
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