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Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
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Posted - 2012.07.20 11:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Anyone else ever get really irritated when they go up behind that lonesome sniper, get close enough to use their blade, only to swing and have the target's shields sort of... Nudged..?
I think we should add an instant kill back-stab. This game is massive, and it's not often someone can get the jump on you with the minimap and scanning system. It would give a lot more incentive for Scout suits to be sneaky.
Thoughts? |
Jonquill Caronite
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
115
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Posted - 2012.07.20 11:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yes and no... I dont think a regular blade should stab through shields, and i think its odd the nova knife is a default weapon, but a scout who made such a 'specialized' weapon his secondary weapon should gain perks like this, although not entirely sure how they should be implemented, and I DONT think it should be an instant kill for ANY suit... Sneak up behind a prototype heavy and aim for the spinal chord all you want, thats some THICK ass army, and high tech internal systems there, I don't think it should instant kill an enemy like that, but damage them an awful lot? Sure. Maybe the prototype knife if they made one with max skills could instant kill almost ANY suit snuck up behind... But ultimately, not a bad idea if properly implemented. |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
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Posted - 2012.07.20 11:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
"Its name derives from the heated plasma edge of the blade GÇô formed by a thermic igniter and linear gravity condenser GÇô that, in skilled hands, can be used to carve through even the thickest dropsuit armour."
CCP seems to disagree with your statement, as do I. Plasma should cut through armor like butter, especially that nanofibre bull. We're not talking about some carbon steel combat knife your uncle Jim Bob gave you for your sixteenth birthday, we're talking about a weapon that requires a fuel cell and glows ****ing blue. You realize how hot something has to be to glow blue? Hot enough to cut through your drag racing suit, that's for sure.
Honestly, I haven't invested 2,000,000sp into Myrofibral Stimulants and Knife Handling but I'm pretty sure that I can run a combat knife through a six foot tall target if he's not entirely convinced that I'm breathing down his neck. |
stonerMonkey
2
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Posted - 2012.07.20 11:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
I say no to insta kill back stabs, way to easy to abuse, and ends up becoming the focus of far too many of the younger generations attention instead of playing the objective. |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2012.07.20 11:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
stonerMonkey wrote:I say no to insta kill back stabs, way to easy to abuse, and ends up becoming the focus of far too many of the younger generations attention instead of playing the objective.
Convince me as to how you think it could be easily abused in this game. |
Buzzwords
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
416
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Posted - 2012.07.20 12:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
no. the knife is a weapon like any other in the game, you can BUILD for it to improve it.
also an insta kill knife would cause a massive imbalance given the low bullets damage relative to high player health.
and even further worse when you consider the large differences in suit movement and even turn speed.
even if you restrict it to "just from the back" it would still be broken, it's fairly easy for a scout to LITERALLY run circles around a heavy, and that's intentional. |
Markin Direce
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.07.20 12:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think a good compromise would be an extra melee skill tree focused on hitting stationary targets from behind.
Something that gave huge melee damage bonuses if you stabbed a target that was not moving (as close to "unaware" as you're giong to be able to get code to recognize) that you could drop points in would give characters the option of speccing into an assassin type of class. These damage bonuses would have to be balanced, of course, through playtesting.
Another idea is to scale the damage of the knife based on what type of suit it hits, so that one swipe of a prototype knife with melee spec does a specific percentage of damage to the player's shields/health, as opposed to a finite number. But I see that causing a ton of other problems, specifically for heavy dropsuits.
EDIT - To add, I know other games who have implemented the backstabbing insta-kill have done so by making a moderate delay between knife attacks. So even if that Scout ran circles around the Heavy, it would have a very low window-opening of pulling it off, and would have to hit it just right at the right moment to do it, because the knife animation has a substantial delay between swings. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
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Posted - 2012.07.20 12:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:"Its name derives from the heated plasma edge of the blade GÇô formed by a thermic igniter and linear gravity condenser GÇô that, in skilled hands, can be used to carve through even the thickest dropsuit armour."
CCP seems to disagree with your statement, as do I. Plasma should cut through armor like butter, especially that nanofibre bull. We're not talking about some carbon steel combat knife your uncle Jim Bob gave you for your sixteenth birthday, we're talking about a weapon that requires a fuel cell and glows ****ing blue. You realize how hot something has to be to glow blue? Hot enough to cut through your drag racing suit, that's for sure.
Honestly, I haven't invested 2,000,000sp into Myrofibral Stimulants and Knife Handling but I'm pretty sure that I can run a combat knife through a six foot tall target if he's not entirely convinced that I'm breathing down his neck. You seem to be misreading that text from CCP. They never said you can instakill someone no matter what armour they have.
"in SKILLED hands, can be used to CARVE through even the thickest dropsuit armour" - meaning that it's POSSIBLE to get through, but NOT easy. You need to WORK to get through thick armour.
You're also ignoring the fact that armour Gëá shields, which Dropsuits ALSO have. It's not ONLY armour that you're having to cut through.
With the right skills and equipment, you CAN one-shot ANY Scout and most Assault or Logistics suits. Heavies will take several hits, but that's fair enough. |
stonerMonkey
2
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Posted - 2012.07.20 13:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:stonerMonkey wrote:I say no to insta kill back stabs, way to easy to abuse, and ends up becoming the focus of far too many of the younger generations attention instead of playing the objective. Convince me as to how you think it could be easily abused in this game.
I thinking a fast moving toon, forgo shields and armor to make the fastest toon you can make and run around the map stabbing anyone who stands still for two seconds to take a sup of tea
I didn't mind it so much in bad company two as there was a fair amount of skill involved, but in the modern warfare series from MW2 on, and battlefield 3 it's just such a pain in the ass. Its not the stabbing in the back that get me it's the fact to some people seem to prefare only stabbing in the back and can spend entire matches just doing that and don't bother with objectives. |
Yun Vulgaris
8
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Posted - 2012.07.21 08:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
instead of an instant kill, it should be an inescapable attack if from behind. ie, land on their back and do repeated stabs. Would take maybe 5~10 seconds, depending on knife levels. |
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Fuma Centuri
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
107
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Posted - 2012.07.21 08:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
How about you just blow their brains out with that forge gun in your hand? Oh right, your weapon will not be enough to quickly kill them even when from surprise. That's intentional, if you can't shoot them with your weapon, you have a cheaper build than they have, so it's obvious they should have an advantage. Guaranteed-death regardless of health is stupid. I'd even go as far and say vehicle squishing should just drain 500 health per second instead of instantly killing. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
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Posted - 2012.07.21 09:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
Honestly this melee it's poor! Halo does it better, CS does it better, War for Cybertron does it better, Killzone 2 & 3 does it better, Crysis does it better...almost any FPS/shooter does it better then Dust 514. |
gangsta nachos
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
377
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Posted - 2012.07.21 09:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
what is it with the knife threads already people think we are carrying a damn light saber |
Iceyburnz
316
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Posted - 2012.07.21 10:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Anyone else ever get really irritated when they go up behind that lonesome sniper, get close enough to use their blade, only to swing and have the target's shields sort of... Nudged..?
I think we should add an instant kill back-stab. This game is massive, and it's not often someone can get the jump on you with the minimap and scanning system. It would give a lot more incentive for Scout suits to be sneaky.
Thoughts?
Yes! Awesome!
However there is a risk that even in normal combat you could trigger that effect simply by circling round someone. So on the surface this idea seems cool, when you think about it however it would probably require some sort of stop valve. Like you can only backstab crouching people. Wait, damn, then nobody would crouch. Or people or maybe people who have been still for 3 seconds or longer? Yes that would work.
|
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 10:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
gangsta nachos wrote:what is it with the knife threads already people think we are carrying a damn light saber
If you bothered reading the blog blog about the Nova Knife you would know that the blade is surrounded by hot plasma which means it can cut through any dropsuit easy. Also if you want to kill someone in an armor with a kinfe you might want to stab him because clearly you can't cut the jugular or other arteries since they are protected...which is why slash instant melee are silly in FPS to begin with and why Halo, KZ have animation stabbing melee! |
gangsta nachos
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 11:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:gangsta nachos wrote:what is it with the knife threads already people think we are carrying a damn light saber If you bothered reading the blog blog about the Nova Knife you would know that the blade is surrounded by hot plasma which means it can cut through any dropsuit easy. Also if you want to kill someone in an armor with a kinfe you might want to stab him because clearly you can't cut the jugular or other arteries since they are protected...which is why slash instant melee are silly in FPS to begin with and why Halo, KZ have animation stabbing melee! kinda like a plasma cutter which don't slice right through steel you have to warm it up to get it started yo. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
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Posted - 2012.07.21 11:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
^^^ As I said you don't use a knife to cut through an armor you use it to pierce/stab through it.
Don't mistake animation melee with instant kill. Instant Kill is COD, animations driven melee is Riddick, The Darkness 1 & 2 KZ and Halo. |
gangsta nachos
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 11:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:^^^ As I said you don't use a knife to cut through an armor you use it to pierce/stab through it.
Don't mistake animation melee with instant kill. Instant Kill is COD, animations driven melee is Riddick, The Darkness 1 & 2 KZ and Halo.
so this thing is so hot it melts steel like butter eh |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
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Posted - 2012.07.21 11:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
^^^ It's technology from thousands of years in the future, what do you think it can do!? |
gangsta nachos
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 11:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Not far enough in the future to be a light saber tbqh |
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Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 11:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
gangsta nachos wrote:Not far enough in the future to be a light saber tbqh
Well it's not a Lightsaber but this doesn't mean that it should be as good as a 2012 knife! Also Star Wars takes place:
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far awayGǪ |
Minmatar Slave 74136
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
291
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 11:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
dropsuit armor routinely has plasma bolts fired at it from infantry rifles and can take a beating if fitted out right . |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 12:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
^^^ What then: Nova Knife is there here but CCP could not come out with an idea (lore) to make it truly effective! So they HAD to make a melee because all FPS has it but didn't think bout making it good!?
And before you say something read this:
Nova Knife wrote:The downside to devoting this much to melee however, is that you lose all your high slots for the damage modifier, plus your lowslots as you need to use CPU enhancers to make the damage modifiers fit. Essentially - You become a glass soldier with a totally awesome knife.
Does it sound right to you that to have melee as good as in any other FPS you must make yourself a "glass soldier".
Lore can't matter more then anything, more then gameplay, not in a video game! |
gangsta nachos
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 12:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:^^^ What then: Nova Knife is there here but CCP could not come out with an idea (lore) to make it truly effective! They HAD to make a melee because all FPS has it but didn't think bout making it good. And before you say something read this: Nova Knife wrote:The downside to devoting this much to melee however, is that you lose all your high slots for the damage modifier, plus your lowslots as you need to use CPU enhancers to make the damage modifiers fit. Essentially - You become a glass soldier with a totally awesome knife. Does it sound right to you that to have melee as good as in any other FPS you must make yourself a "glass soldier". Lore can't matter more then anything, more then gameplay, not in a video game! I honestly will never understand why someone would waste sp on a Melee weapon it blows my mind |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
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Posted - 2012.07.21 12:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
^^^ But this is what CCP wants, this is how they intended things for us. To have a decent melee, as decent as in other FPS, you HAVE to sacrifice the rest and transform yourself into a "glass melee soldier"...all in a game based on range combat and on GUNS
The only obstacle to a good melee is CCP obsession with RPG skills, nothing more. We could have a FUNCTIONAL melee as functional and well thought as in may shooters but NO: the melee must be poor because RPG elements can't be changed/removed...even if they lessen the gameplay. |
gangsta nachos
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 12:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:^^^ But this is what CCP wants, this is how they intended things for us. To have a decent melee, as decent as in other FPS, you HAVE to sacrifice the rest and transform yourself into a "glass melee soldier"...all in a game based on range combat and on GUNS The only obstacle to a good melee is CCP obsession with RPG skills, nothing more. The only way this one hit kill with the knife might work is if they do it like every other weapon make a slot for the knife like the grenade slot level it up to get the proto knife so this one hit wonder puts a ding in the drop suit fitting and it's not a free overpowered weapon that you don't have to ever buy it must go against your dropsiit fitting
With that said I am still totally against stupid one hit kill melees just trying to have a discussion |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 12:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
Read this. It will show you my opinion and that I am not suggesting an unbalanced OHK melee without a trade-off! |
gangsta nachos
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 12:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
I'm done running circles with you bro I said my 2 cents I'm going to move on now
And I'm gonna leave a dislike behind me |
Angel Vicious
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.07.21 16:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
Just scrap the knife all together. I want to bash people with the ass end of my forge gun. Then melee could be balanced by having the different guns deal dmg based on their size. Swing speed would also be variable. Although as a former halo player I like the idea of animated melee kills I just don't think they have a place here in dust. |
Buzzwords
Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION
416
|
Posted - 2012.07.21 21:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
serious question... how many of you people have actually skilled and built for the knife? like level 5 knife skills and filling your high slots with prototype melee damage mods. i'm betting none of you.
so you realize what you're doing is effectively saying "my militia dropsuit with no modules, and no points in mechanics or shield management dies to easy!"
the knife has the greatest growth rate of anything in the game. it gets 10% damage for every level of it's base skill, whereas the next closest is the SMG with 5%. a prototype KNIFE dmg mod is a 50% damage bonus, for anything but the knife, a prototype damage mod is worth 10%. it's completely possible to deal over 400 damage a swing if you actually built for it, in the CURRENT system.
not to mention that the people asking for a 1hit knife are COMPLETELY ignorant of the current game balance. weapons in dust are weak relative to player health. the weakest guns in MW:2 killed in 5 shots. MW:3 the weakest is 6. BF3 the weakest gun is 9. (and those are all max range minimum damage stats) in dust it's completely possible to need 50 bullets to kill. (a standard heavy with good skills but NO modules, would need 57 rounds from a standard smg with bad skills) even a militia assault suit with NO modules and NO skills requires 10 shots from a standard AR. but a one hit killing knife is STILL one hit. in battlefield that means it deals 100 damage, in dust that would easily mean 1,000 damage... so a one hit killing knife in dust is easily 10 times as powerful as one in CoD (i mean even my assault suits have over 700 health, and 1k health is not even a GOOD heavy)
then on top of that, pile on the HUGE mobility gaps between suits, and it's laughable. you thought marathon lightweight commando was bad? now imagine scout suit one hit knife stamina low slots... |
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