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Raynor Ragna
266
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Posted - 2012.07.17 16:43:00 -
[31] - Quote
In eve, lag is excusable. Sometimes there is lag that is up to several minutes. In an FPS, anything over 40-60miliseconds is unacceptable. |
Grant B1969
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.07.17 16:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
The limiting issue with the PS3 has always been RAM. Yes, MAG had 128 v. 128 players but they did that by controlling a few things: 1) they limited the number of weapons, armor, vehicles, etc. and generally any personalization that would have required additional memory to be utilized 2) they strongly controlled the rendering of any objects that are seen on the screen at any time.
Zipper, the makers of MAG claimed that their engine could allow for more than 256 players in a game at a time but nobody ever saw that.
Some of the things that MAG players asked for a lot but were always told that the limits of the PS3 did not allow for it were female character bodies or heads and various minor personalizations. They were constantly told that the memory was just not there for it. One other request was to have a game mode with three different teams playing against each other. They got this game mode but it was 16 v 16 v 16 and were told that the game mode could not handle any more players than that, again, because of memory.
Let's be clear here (because I have seen the mistakes in talking about this issue) the problem is not with the maps or their size.... or the number of maps for that matter. The problem is with personalizations. When the game starts, all the information for every gun, armor, equipment, body type, head type etc. that CAN be in the game (notice I say "can be in the game" and not "IS" in the game) needs to get loaded into memory along with map information and it all has to fit into the skimpy amount of RAM memory that the PS3 has.
It seems to me that when I am running around in DUST I run into moments where there is a swap done to give me more map. If this is the case then CCP is not loading in the entire map into memory. This might be because they are over-rendering the map (which they should change/improve) or because they are trying to preserve memory in the hopes that they will be able to give us more players in a battle. The flip side of all of this is that they have already run into memory problems and won't be able to give us anything more than they already have. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
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Posted - 2012.07.17 16:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
Bones1182 wrote:That last part would just suck especially if you have a PS3 with a small hardrive. All of a sudden the game just stops or gets real slow. When I had about 5GB free on my old 60GB, I tried playing Dark Void.
After about 20 minutes, the framerate dropped by enough that my girlfriend thought I was playing a different game and asked why it looked so bad.
Checked my HDD and found I had 5MB free space. |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
86
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Posted - 2012.07.17 17:49:00 -
[34] - Quote
Grant B1969 wrote:The limiting issue with the PS3 has always been RAM. Yes, MAG had 128 v. 128 players but they did that by controlling a few things: 1) they limited the number of weapons, armor, vehicles, etc. and generally any personalization that would have required additional memory to be utilized 2) they strongly controlled the rendering of any objects that are seen on the screen at any time.
Zipper, the makers of MAG claimed that their engine could allow for more than 256 players in a game at a time but nobody ever saw that.
Some of the things that MAG players asked for a lot but were always told that the limits of the PS3 did not allow for it were female character bodies or heads and various minor personalizations. They were constantly told that the memory was just not there for it. One other request was to have a game mode with three different teams playing against each other. They got this game mode but it was 16 v 16 v 16 and were told that the game mode could not handle any more players than that, again, because of memory.
Let's be clear here (because I have seen the mistakes in talking about this issue) the problem is not with the maps or their size.... or the number of maps for that matter. The problem is with personalizations. When the game starts, all the information for every gun, armor, equipment, body type, head type etc. that CAN be in the game (notice I say "can be in the game" and not "IS" in the game) needs to get loaded into memory along with map information and it all has to fit into the skimpy amount of RAM memory that the PS3 has.
It seems to me that when I am running around in DUST I run into moments where there is a swap done to give me more map. If this is the case then CCP is not loading in the entire map into memory. This might be because they are over-rendering the map (which they should change/improve) or because they are trying to preserve memory in the hopes that they will be able to give us more players in a battle. The flip side of all of this is that they have already run into memory problems and won't be able to give us anything more than they already have.
I wonder if they will attempt to use a swapfile system eat a couple of gigs on the hardrive for it?
Well we will.have to wait and see I guess.
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Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.07.17 17:58:00 -
[35] - Quote
I wonder what would happen when the ps4 comes out and dust 514 shifts entirely over a year after launch or something. |
fenrir storm
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
314
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Posted - 2012.07.17 18:00:00 -
[36] - Quote
Lewis Shinypants wrote:fenrir storm wrote:Lewis Shinypants wrote:fenrir storm wrote:Lewis Shinypants wrote:Well. From what I know of specs: 7 cores, 1 of whichs is a PPE processor... 256mb of ram... So... Eh...? You EVE players know more tech of computers then me. But I'm quite sure it's not the /worst/ specs ever. It's not good either when you consider that 8gb of ram is now considered the sweet spot for a pc now True, very true. Hell, that amount of ram is low for me to run a mine craft server on. Though console ram differents from PC ram as it is often more concentrated/efficient apparently. And this is why dust on the ps4 will be **** bricks amazing. Been reading up on the ps4 and it dosn't sound verry impressive if what is written is true. Seems like it will have 1gb of ram an ati quad core chip and ati gpu not a high end one either, but youll have to look yourselves to see if you think it's correct. Do you by chance have a link my good sir? I'd be interested in reading that. And not to mention the console does still have some time before its released.
Will try to find it for you
Edit I think they actually called the ps4 orbis or something similar |
EnIgMa99
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
219
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Posted - 2012.07.17 18:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
fenrir storm wrote:Lewis Shinypants wrote:Well. From what I know of specs: 7 cores, 1 of whichs is a PPE processor... 256mb of ram... So... Eh...? You EVE players know more tech of computers then me. But I'm quite sure it's not the /worst/ specs ever. It's not good either when you consider that 8gb of ram is now considered the sweet spot for a pc now
less about the local client but the servers ability to serve up some serve. like it has to get and proccess millions of clicks per second and spit them out to different clients and shi. |
DonRodie II
14
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Posted - 2012.07.17 18:07:00 -
[38] - Quote
50 vs 50 is enough if they do that they will come lol |
fenrir storm
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
314
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Posted - 2012.07.17 18:10:00 -
[39] - Quote
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/04/04/sources-detail-the-playstation-4s-processing-specs
Sorry if the link dosnt work but that was the site and I'm old as well |
4447
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
649
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Posted - 2012.07.17 19:18:00 -
[40] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:4447 wrote:i don't know much about pc but i know something called virtual ram and sony just brought a cloud like company could the ps3 have a small update for ram? The reason RAM exists is because it allows the system to store smaller amounts of data in a location where it can be accessed MUCH faster than through other methods. Virtual Memory is where a "swapfile" is created on the hard Drive, and data is quickly swapped (hence the name) between this file and the RAM, effectively increasing the amount of RAM available without needing a physical upgrade. Cloud services are totally irrelevant to either of these things, so no, Sony buying Gaikai isn't going to give the PS3 a RAM upgrade. But you're thinking along the right lines - there have been a few PS3 games that created swapfiles. Although some of them do so VERY badly, and instead of having a fixed allocation of space, they gradually eat your HDD the longer you play.
you can use Gaikai to play the game on, thus no need for ps3 ram problems? |
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Etero Narciss
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
112
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Posted - 2012.07.17 19:26:00 -
[41] - Quote
Peter Hanther wrote:Grit Breather wrote:Peter Hanther wrote:There is also the issue of bandwidth. every vehicle, grenade, missile, nanohive, and person on the battlefield is data that needs to be sent to every player. The more players they add the more of the bandwidth is used up.
Do it too much and many potential customers will be unable to play without excess lag. Bandwidth is the last of their concerns. If you can run a battle in EVE with 20,000 ships all firing missiles and projectiles at each other, you can have a battle with 200 merc using ARs. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Time_Dilation Time Dilation in an FPS is a great way to inspire violence in people. Not the kind that you'd want, mind you. |
fenrir storm
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
314
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Posted - 2012.07.18 07:24:00 -
[42] - Quote
got to agree ^^^^^ |
carl von oppenheimer
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2012.07.18 11:04:00 -
[43] - Quote
before time dilation your option in EVE with huge spikes was to wait for the server to load which could take from 15minutes to hours or just never loading at all. Hence the winner in most battle before time dilation was the fleet that was there first and not because they had any kind of advantage but because the system had loaded for them first and this often lead to death while watching black screen, gun never cycling and all that. Sometimes I saw my own a body appear floating next to my carrier and I knew that I was dead before I had even finished loading the system.
Often the lag was used as advantage by bringing a huge number of ships mainly cheap ones just to lag out the system on purpose. Now with time dilation we can have fights that number thousands on each side without significant strain for the servers. Dilation works because of the cyclic nature of EVE (guns always cycle ie. shoot on set intervals and so forth). What dilation does is that it slows everyone in the fight equally so that one side can no longer "steal" all the server time by being there first. |
TiMeSpLiT--TeR
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
326
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Posted - 2012.07.18 13:59:00 -
[44] - Quote
I heard that the battles are simultaneously happening in one planet. Looking at this trailer Dust, take note that there is another battle happening on the other side. |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
86
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Posted - 2012.07.18 14:13:00 -
[45] - Quote
Now I lack any major knowledge on server architecture however it is my understanding that each district on any given planet will be on separate "shard". I assume that like in EVE the more resources a given district needs it will move more shards to support the area.
This is based on my very limited understanding of the system anybody who knows more feel free to help out. |
RolyatDerTeufel
D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION
1648
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 14:16:00 -
[46] - Quote
TiMeSpLiT--TeR wrote:I heard that the battles are simultaneously happening in one planet. Looking at this trailer Dust, take note that there is another battle happening on the other side.
They've also stated these battles will be effecting the others on the same planet in Real Time.
How? That's anyones guess. |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 14:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
Players per match isn't the problem: limited time per match is a problem. |
RolyatDerTeufel
D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION
1648
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 14:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
Templar Two wrote:Players per match isn't the problem: limited time per match is a problem.
Dev's had their own internal "serious" games and it lasted over an hour.
I hope to spend that much time owning face some day in one match |
fenrir storm
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
314
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 15:24:00 -
[49] - Quote
Back on track recon 40 per side will be pushing the ps to much if they are all in the same zone. |
Cikeo
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 15:48:00 -
[50] - Quote
Bones1182 wrote:^^^ True they will push the limits as much as possible. I still think the PS3 itself might be one of the biggest factors in the limits of battle size.
What is the current record on PS3 for largest FPS match?
I would imagine it is MAG with 256 players.
I played many games where almost all 256 people were fighting in close proximity with air strikes and vehicles with no lag. On the same note I played many sabotage maps (56 players I think) with terrible lag.This is just my guess but I think the lag mainly came from server issues and not the ps3.
One thing to keep in mind is that graphically MAG wasn't all that great. I'm assuming that Dust will only get more detailed as the next builds come out, meaning the ps3 will have to work harder, which in turn might cause less than acceptable experiences. |
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Cikeo
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
20
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Posted - 2012.07.18 15:56:00 -
[51] - Quote
Just to through another log in the fire:
Often times it took a while to get all 256 people into one game for MAG. When MAG first game out this wasn't really an issue, the wait was barely 5 minutes. However as time went by, and particularly now, there are maybe 30 people queued up waiting for those big matches. Zipper pigeon-holed the game by making the best mode be the most difficult to get into. |
Etero Narciss
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
112
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 22:40:00 -
[52] - Quote
carl von oppenheimer wrote:before time dilation your option in EVE with huge spikes was to wait for the server to load which could take from 15minutes to hours or just never loading at all. Hence the winner in most battle before time dilation was the fleet that was there first and not because they had any kind of advantage but because the system had loaded for them first and this often lead to death while watching black screen, gun never cycling and all that. Sometimes I saw my own a body appear floating next to my carrier and I knew that I was dead before I had even finished loading the system.
Often the lag was used as advantage by bringing a huge number of ships mainly cheap ones just to lag out the system on purpose. Now with time dilation we can have fights that number thousands on each side without significant strain for the servers. Dilation works because of the cyclic nature of EVE (guns always cycle ie. shoot on set intervals and so forth). What dilation does is that it slows everyone in the fight equally so that one side can no longer "steal" all the server time by being there first. I don't think you realize the amounts of "No!" that Time Dilation would generate in an FPS. No one in their right mind wants to play a shooting game in slow motion. |
Genhawkk
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 22:55:00 -
[53] - Quote
No way Dust will support 256 player battles.... seriously? use that thing between your ears!
They are already talking about all this customization and even now the proto suits have different models then normals. The more custimization we have, the less people that are able to be on the battlefield; plain and simple!
256... lol
And really? Time Dialation? That comment just made everything you have ever said to be completely mute.... Time dialation in a FPS, yea, good one! Idiot |
achiever
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 23:01:00 -
[54] - Quote
here a link too the ps4 and what it too have in it
http://www.ps4playstation4.com/Expected-PS4-Specs
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DonRodie II
14
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 23:09:00 -
[55] - Quote
32 vs 32 or 40 vs 40 should be enough. That would be great. |
Benjamin Hellios
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 23:22:00 -
[56] - Quote
The largest maps will be 7x7km right? So won't 32 vs 32 feel a bit empty or will it inspire more tactical gameplay and less "guns blazing" like it is now? |
MR-NASTY
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
87
|
Posted - 2012.07.19 00:04:00 -
[57] - Quote
Benjamin Hellios wrote:The largest maps will be 7x7km right? So won't 32 vs 32 feel a bit empty or will it inspire more tactical gameplay and less "guns blazing" like it is now?
Yes it feels too empty right now. I really hope we can get at least 256 or be even more revolutionary and get 500. That would be epic. Because right now I spent most of my time riding in an lav looking for a soul to take. And this is playing with randoms imagine when we group up how much redlineing will happen to the poor randoms. |
Cless Vallein
Teknomen
37
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Posted - 2012.07.19 00:23:00 -
[58] - Quote
I thought that perhaps the 514 in the title might have something to do with the amount of people we have in a match. I have no basis for this other than just pure speculation. The PS3 still has some life in it and I've read articles where some Devs are still just beginning to really tap it's potential so maybe it is possible. Interesting thoughts regardless. |
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