DUST Search - Why was Metalevel lockout not put in release 1.2

One Eyed King wrote:

deezy dabest wrote:

JARREL THOMAS wrote:

Then why not try it if they will be fine? It'll level out the battlefield for the new players (if they're good).

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deezy dabest wrote:

My militia beats that newbies militia because my core skills and weapon skills are all maxed out. New players still get stomped.

The player base very very RARELY gets over 3000 people online at one time. That's not a lot to divide from and search times already blow.

Tanks would be epic over powered with a proper fit in a meta locked match. There are currently some tank fits that require 4 - 5 full proto A/V players to take them down. What happens when not even those people can go proto? I will give you a hint TANKS WIN.

Finally, the most damning point, payouts are based on ISK lost. If you remove all high level gear from matches payouts go from seriously bad to incredibly worse.

Basically the idea of meta lockouts was a purely knee jerk reaction which did not hold up to the slightest amount of scrutiny. There is not one single good aspect that comes from it.

If you have more skills, then why worry about meta locks? If your std/militia can beat theirs, then your pro/officer can REALLY beat theirs, while ensuring you have an even greater advantage and that even the mere possibility some noob could even accidentally kill you despite their lower skill is decreased to near impossibility.

I don't care if certain people quit if it means new players have a little more of a chance, and retention rates increase. Hell, I bet you would see a lot of people return as a result.

And if the data doesn't show any increase? Locks can be removed. We have nothing to lose at this juncture.

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Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 6	Posted - 2015.12.28 12:56:00 - [31] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Because bitter vets can scream as loud as wailing babies. I'm slowly coming around to the idea. Still bitter though. This is a positive and endearing message brought to you by Himi.
Amuf Oratok Libera nos a malo 104	Posted - 2015.12.28 13:24:00 - [32] - Quote Meta lock is plain stupid because meta level is unreliable. Tier lock would be good ONLY IF Ccp developed a true tiercide, with a subsequent making of new items (e.g. "you want a standard double-beam repair tool? Sure!"). You know, the horizontal character development thing. Merry Xmas!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 18	Posted - 2015.12.28 13:38:00 - [33] - Quote Same reason that 13 out of 20 PRO Modules are twice as strong (or better) as STD. Because Vet Perks are very popular among Vets. Poor NPE? Declining Headcounts? Newbro Retention? Long wait times? All important stuff, but not as important as protecting those Vet Perks! PS: Very much in favor of improving NPE. Even if it means giving up some of my vet perks. Dropsuit Usage Rates
Thor Odinson42 Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2015.12.28 15:48:00 - [34] - Quote The best thing they could do is just remove all of the lower tiers and reimburse all losses at the end of matches. At this stage of the game, it just doesn't make sense to have the fear of asset loss removing any level of fun that could be had.
Justice Darling Horizons' Edge 119	Posted - 2015.12.28 16:34:00 - [35] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: The best thing they could do is just remove all of the lower tiers and reimburse all losses at the end of matches. At this stage of the game, it just doesn't make sense to have the fear of asset loss removing any level of fun that could be had. How is it any less fun to us advanced? vs officer/proto in pubs? If anything it would test your metal, really when you think about it, as you cant buy officer gear off the market, it would make more sense to only allow you to loss it where you don't make isk! Most of the best match's I've played and really had fun in is where there are no proto/officers or a really limited number of them, getting full teams of proto is overwhelming and only fun for one side, that kind of play tens to turn peps off on this game, not make them want more! Is there a large number of masochist playing this game that I'm not aware of? It's like my mother always told me! Rana Rana Rana Rana Rana Rana , and codeine and god dammed it, you little mother!
TIGER SHARK1501 Savage Bullet RUST415 698	Posted - 2015.12.28 16:53:00 - [36] - Quote Meee One wrote: TIGER SHARK1501 wrote: Justice Darling wrote: So i was looking at the road map and I'm seeing No proto/officer in pubs if we want to build our player base why wasn't this first on the list? Of things to happen! Trust me....Tier lock. Meta lock isn't as clear cut. Think all Advanced suits or all Militia fittings. =ƒÿü >force militia >no ISK flowing into the market (when it's brought in) >no reason to play long-term because you can't use what you've earned >game dies due to lack of interest Seriously guys,these "do it for the children" suggestions need to stop. I'm actually quite content running Loyalty suiuts or Basic 80% of the time. Then again that's just me.
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 909	Posted - 2015.12.28 17:15:00 - [37] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Because it won't do anything. Most of the people using that stuff are more than good enough to beat the **** out of you without it. It's not as much of a crutch as people seem to think. I've used plenty of Darth's scrambler rifles and I never wreck people because I'm not that good at shooters. You have to have the guns AND be good with them. Locking out the guns themselves won't do anything. Then why not try it if they will be fine? It'll level out the battlefield for the new players (if they're good). Just a Caldari living the clean life. ( -í° -£-û -í°) No.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 4	Posted - 2015.12.28 17:31:00 - [38] - Quote JARREL THOMAS wrote: Then why not try it if they will be fine? It'll level out the battlefield for the new players (if they're good). . . . . deezy dabest wrote: My militia beats that newbies militia because my core skills and weapon skills are all maxed out. New players still get stomped. The player base very very RARELY gets over 3000 people online at one time. That's not a lot to divide from and search times already blow. Tanks would be epic over powered with a proper fit in a meta locked match. There are currently some tank fits that require 4 - 5 full proto A/V players to take them down. What happens when not even those people can go proto? I will give you a hint TANKS WIN. Finally, the most damning point, payouts are based on ISK lost. If you remove all high level gear from matches payouts go from seriously bad to incredibly worse. Basically the idea of meta lockouts was a purely knee jerk reaction which did not hold up to the slightest amount of scrutiny. There is not one single good aspect that comes from it. o7 All #514InTheWind
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.12.28 17:42:00 - [39] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: JARREL THOMAS wrote: Then why not try it if they will be fine? It'll level out the battlefield for the new players (if they're good). . . . . deezy dabest wrote: My militia beats that newbies militia because my core skills and weapon skills are all maxed out. New players still get stomped. The player base very very RARELY gets over 3000 people online at one time. That's not a lot to divide from and search times already blow. Tanks would be epic over powered with a proper fit in a meta locked match. There are currently some tank fits that require 4 - 5 full proto A/V players to take them down. What happens when not even those people can go proto? I will give you a hint TANKS WIN. Finally, the most damning point, payouts are based on ISK lost. If you remove all high level gear from matches payouts go from seriously bad to incredibly worse. Basically the idea of meta lockouts was a purely knee jerk reaction which did not hold up to the slightest amount of scrutiny. There is not one single good aspect that comes from it. If you have more skills, then why worry about meta locks? If your std/militia can beat theirs, then your pro/officer can REALLY beat theirs, while ensuring you have an even greater advantage and that even the mere possibility some noob could even accidentally kill you despite their lower skill is decreased to near impossibility. Look, we get it from your videos (unless I am confusing you with someone else, then my pardons), you like destroying new players. You get off on it. Good for you. I don't care if you and your like quit if it means new players have a little more of a chance, and retention rates increase. Hell, I bet you would see a lot of people return as a result. And if the data doesn't show any increase? Locks can be removed. We have nothing to lose at this juncture. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 4	Posted - 2015.12.28 17:56:00 - [40] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: If you have more skills, then why worry about meta locks? If your std/militia can beat theirs, then your pro/officer can REALLY beat theirs, while ensuring you have an even greater advantage and that even the mere possibility some noob could even accidentally kill you despite their lower skill is decreased to near impossibility. Look, we get it from your videos (unless I am confusing you with someone else, then my pardons), you like destroying new players. You get off on it. Good for you. I don't care if you and your like quit if it means new players have a little more of a chance, and retention rates increase. Hell, I bet you would see a lot of people return as a result. And if the data doesn't show any increase? Locks can be removed. We have nothing to lose at this juncture. I am not pointing to my skills, I consider myself as having very mediocre gun game at the end of the day. I am simply pointing out the difference in core skills. Yes, you are confusing me with every single other person that has made videos. While every single youtuber runs officer non stop you will find that I run almost completely unmodified APEX fittings unless the other team is attempting to proto stomp. I take a bit of offense at being lumped with the actual proto stompers but I understand why my argument against meta locks would cause that. I'm not sure if you have noticed but CCP is not one for going back on things. That would seriously fuel the argument that we are just beta testers and lead to more talking down about CCP. At the end of the day meta locks are just another classic band aid that will do absolutely nothing but damage to the game. o7 All #514InTheWind

JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 910	Posted - 2015.12.28 20:07:00 - [41] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: deezy dabest wrote: JARREL THOMAS wrote: Then why not try it if they will be fine? It'll level out the battlefield for the new players (if they're good). . . . . deezy dabest wrote: My militia beats that newbies militia because my core skills and weapon skills are all maxed out. New players still get stomped. The player base very very RARELY gets over 3000 people online at one time. That's not a lot to divide from and search times already blow. Tanks would be epic over powered with a proper fit in a meta locked match. There are currently some tank fits that require 4 - 5 full proto A/V players to take them down. What happens when not even those people can go proto? I will give you a hint TANKS WIN. Finally, the most damning point, payouts are based on ISK lost. If you remove all high level gear from matches payouts go from seriously bad to incredibly worse. Basically the idea of meta lockouts was a purely knee jerk reaction which did not hold up to the slightest amount of scrutiny. There is not one single good aspect that comes from it. If you have more skills, then why worry about meta locks? If your std/militia can beat theirs, then your pro/officer can REALLY beat theirs, while ensuring you have an even greater advantage and that even the mere possibility some noob could even accidentally kill you despite their lower skill is decreased to near impossibility. I don't care if certain people quit if it means new players have a little more of a chance, and retention rates increase. Hell, I bet you would see a lot of people return as a result. And if the data doesn't show any increase? Locks can be removed. We have nothing to lose at this juncture. I believe that if there are more players trying to join than there are shiting on them. All you need to do is give em a chance. You guys are only top shot because the new players aren't given a chance. Just a Caldari living the clean life. ( -í° -£-û -í°) No.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 4	Posted - 2015.12.28 20:22:00 - [42] - Quote JARREL THOMAS wrote: I believe that if there are more players trying to join than there are shiting on them. All you need to do is give em a chance. You guys are only top shot because the new players aren't given a chance. What you guys seem to be missing is that nothing in this game supports meta locks. Payouts are generated by ISK destroyed. Tanks have been switched to some sort of hybrid tiericide system that leaves their metas useless. Core skills and the warbarge damage bonus essentially multiply meta. Trust me if I saw one single argument that actually made sense for meta locks I would not be here trying to explain why it will not work. Meta locks are not the band aid to solve the fact that there is no incentive to win and poor is a polite word for matchmaking. o7 All #514InTheWind
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.12.28 20:36:00 - [43] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: I am not pointing to my skills, I consider myself as having very mediocre gun game at the end of the day. I am simply pointing out the difference in core skills. Yes, you are confusing me with every single other person that has made videos. While every single youtuber runs officer non stop you will find that I run almost completely unmodified APEX fittings unless the other team is attempting to proto stomp. I take a bit of offense at being lumped with the actual proto stompers but I understand why my argument against meta locks would cause that. I'm not sure if you have noticed but CCP is not one for going back on things. That would seriously fuel the argument that we are just beta testers and lead to more talking down about CCP. At the end of the day meta locks are just another classic band aid that will do absolutely nothing but damage to the game. I already amended the quote after not finding the evidence and apologize for jumping to conclusions. That said, CCP has backed off things numerous times. Just look at the cloak. It had 25% dampening and twice the duration when it first released. And that doesn't even count the other nerfs like blindness. Then there is backpedaling, which was originally in gamme at 50% of forward movement and was removed. Now it is back at a respectable 80% or so. This is CCPs first FPS, and there was bound to be trial and error. No game is perfect, and all sorts of companies make changes. Even the ones like Bungie and Dice that have made these games for years. I disagree that it will damage the game. And we are already in a state where band aids are fixing old code because there is no other way. They nerfed EWAR because they couldn't remove shared passive scans. They created the skins and half tiercide because of the amount of resources the old code used. They introduced BW because of the resources EQ uses. At this point it is making the best of a bad situation, and helping the game survive long enough to show that porting is viable or that they can financially commit more resources. In order to do that, we need new players, and better retention. Meta locks in pubs are the best solution at this point. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 911	Posted - 2015.12.28 20:55:00 - [44] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: JARREL THOMAS wrote: I believe that if there are more players trying to join than there are shiting on them. All you need to do is give em a chance. You guys are only top shot because the new players aren't given a chance. What you guys seem to be missing is that nothing in this game supports meta locks. Payouts are generated by ISK destroyed. Tanks have been switched to some sort of hybrid tiericide system that leaves their metas useless. Core skills and the warbarge damage bonus essentially multiply meta. Trust me if I saw one single argument that actually made sense for meta locks I would not be here trying to explain why it will not work. Meta locks are not the band aid to solve the fact that there is no incentive to win and poor is a polite word for matchmaking. The only one that kind of makes sense is core skills, but even that can be earned. And also please don't bring up incentive to win we have no reason to win besides pooping on dreams. So let them get a chance to win so there reason for winning can be met (isk/sp ) Just a Caldari living the clean life. ( -í° -£-û -í°) No.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 4	Posted - 2015.12.28 20:58:00 - [45] - Quote JARREL THOMAS wrote: deezy dabest wrote: JARREL THOMAS wrote: I believe that if there are more players trying to join than there are shiting on them. All you need to do is give em a chance. You guys are only top shot because the new players aren't given a chance. What you guys seem to be missing is that nothing in this game supports meta locks. Payouts are generated by ISK destroyed. Tanks have been switched to some sort of hybrid tiericide system that leaves their metas useless. Core skills and the warbarge damage bonus essentially multiply meta. Trust me if I saw one single argument that actually made sense for meta locks I would not be here trying to explain why it will not work. Meta locks are not the band aid to solve the fact that there is no incentive to win and poor is a polite word for matchmaking. The only one that kind of makes sense is core skills, but even that can be earned. And also please don't bring up incentive to win we have no reason to win besides pooping on dreams. So let them get a chance to win so there reason for winning can be met (isk/sp ) In a game that is suppose to be about risk versus reward............ o7 All #514InTheWind
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 108	Posted - 2015.12.28 21:20:00 - [46] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Because bitter vets can scream as loud as wailing babies. And they're the only voice that matters. I've been boycotting this game for many months. You're all late to the party.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.12.28 21:21:00 - [47] - Quote You are right that risk/reward is off. That is one reason there is so much stomping. I have always advocated for a more robust system for rewards, and have seen many others do the same. I can't remember any of it getting a response from CCP. Meta locks on the other hand have been discussed by them to my recollection. Or at least acknowledged. I was hoping squad number changes would have been the answer, and was not behind meta locks until then. Now there is little choice. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 4	Posted - 2015.12.28 21:25:00 - [48] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: You are right that risk/reward is off. That is one reason there is so much stomping. I have always advocated for a more robust system for rewards, and have seen many others do the same. I can't remember any of it getting a response from CCP. Meta locks on the other hand have been discussed by them to my recollection. Or at least acknowledged. I was hoping squad number changes would have been the answer, and was not behind meta locks until then. Now there is little choice. Nothing in this game will ever be right without an incentive to win. Having one side give up as soon as they know winning will result in negative ISK leads to skewed stats. Skewed stats leaves nothing to reliably match make or balance based on. You are correct that meta locks were mentioned by Rattati but like I said above it was a knee jerk reaction to appease the community which simply did not stand up to scrutiny. o7 All #514InTheWind
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.12.28 21:49:00 - [49] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: One Eyed King wrote: You are right that risk/reward is off. That is one reason there is so much stomping. I have always advocated for a more robust system for rewards, and have seen many others do the same. I can't remember any of it getting a response from CCP. Meta locks on the other hand have been discussed by them to my recollection. Or at least acknowledged. I was hoping squad number changes would have been the answer, and was not behind meta locks until then. Now there is little choice. Nothing in this game will ever be right without an incentive to win. Having one side give up as soon as they know winning will result in negative ISK leads to skewed stats. Skewed stats leaves nothing to reliably match make or balance based on. You are correct that meta locks were mentioned by Rattati but like I said above it was a knee jerk reaction to appease the community which simply did not stand up to scrutiny. It is not the lack of incentive to win that is the problem. It is that winning, and winning big, is nearly the only way to make money. Incentives are needed to stay in a fight even if its likely you will lose. Those aren't there, and it is why so many leave battles. This leads to squads of people in OP gear to ensure victory, and leaving when games seem lost, with a bunch of others sticking around once their team's proto squads are gone. Now they are outnumbered and out geared. Meta locks will mean less risk of loss for those in pubs, and as a result more incentive to stay for the fun. If anything, it will give new and random mercs the ability to fight back some without being so heavily outclassed. There also needs to be incentives for new players to stick out the grind and learn the game. Getting constantly stomped by people they are out playing yet seem to make no damage and die quickly is poor incentive to stick around. They need to at least get the occasional kill, and can't do that when they are up against players with more HP and DPS. Make no mistake, we could already be well past the point of no return regarding player numbers and good games. Well past appropriate risk/reward adjustment and meta locks. The biggest loss to me has been the fun of close games. You can try and pay mercs for winning and even losing, but no amount of imaginary money can force people to stick around and play a game that isn't fun. The gear imbalance is a big factor in the new player vs vet gap, and is a big part in the lack of competitive and fun games. I say put meta locks in pubs and lets have fun again. If people want to use their pricey gear, they can play FW and PC. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Justice Darling Horizons' Edge 120	Posted - 2015.12.28 21:57:00 - [50] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: JARREL THOMAS wrote: I believe that if there are more players trying to join than there are shiting on them. All you need to do is give em a chance. You guys are only top shot because the new players aren't given a chance. What you guys seem to be missing is that nothing in this game supports meta locks. Payouts are generated by ISK destroyed. Tanks have been switched to some sort of hybrid tiericide system that leaves their metas useless. Core skills and the warbarge damage bonus essentially multiply meta. Trust me if I saw one single argument that actually made sense for meta locks I would not be here trying to explain why it will not work. Meta locks are not the band aid to solve the fact that there is no incentive to win and poor is a polite word for matchmaking. OK a band add on a buck shoot wounds is better then doing nothing about it, the payout system isnt really going on isk lost it looks at a part of that over all number and adds a little to the over all battle cost, adding to a pre set config is all its doing. I've been on them losing teams where no one really died cuss it was 3 on 10 and I've been on the other end of got paid almost half a mil both ways the fact they will not share their math shows its BS but that isn't the issue here! From what I can tell there are those that give a damn about this game and those that give a damn about them self's and i would say we are at a impasse, ether purpose something useful to the subject or leave it alone! It's like my mother always told me! Rana Rana Rana Rana Rana Rana , and codeine and god dammed it, you little mother!

Pope Chester 514 MAFIA 24	Posted - 2015.12.28 22:11:00 - [51] - Quote The cost of the suits does a fine job of keeping balance. Ccp needs to open the entire dust market place to free trade. Let the invisible hand do the work.
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.12.28 22:30:00 - [52] - Quote The problem with metalocks is that they are based on the sum of the metalevels, not the average. This means that metalocks either A) are so low that suits such as movie cannot deploy or B) meta level is high enough to accommodate logi suits, but its also high enough for proto stomps. We need to have a metalocks for the total average meta level of a fitting rather than the sum. That way we can ensure movie aren't banned from pubs simply by having more slots than everyone else. Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.12.28 22:37:00 - [53] - Quote Pope Chester wrote: The cost of the suits does a fine job of keeping balance. Ccp needs to open the entire dust market place to free trade. Let the invisible hand do the work. This would be a massive under taking, and beyond what resources CCP has for Dust. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Justice Darling Horizons' Edge 121	Posted - 2015.12.28 22:48:00 - [54] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: The problem with metalocks is that they are based on the sum of the metalevels, not the average. This means that metalocks either A) are so low that suits such as movie cannot deploy or B) meta level is high enough to accommodate logi suits, but its also high enough for proto stomps. We need to have a metalocks for the total average meta level of a fitting rather than the sum. That way we can ensure movie aren't banned from pubs simply by having more slots than everyone else. why is it every one of you think a metalock is limited to the over all sum number? look at it like this pubs should be nothing over meta 3 ****** meta1 **** meta2 **** meta2 **** meta3 ********************************** meta4 **** meta5 **** meta6 ****** for all equipment gear suits guns ect ect ect... Boom it works! end of story. It really is that simple, go with KISS and you cant go wrong! It's like my mother always told me! Rana Rana Rana Rana Rana Rana , and codeine and god dammed it, you little mother!


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