Be careful what you wish for. Meta lock will just encourage the cheesiest FTOM fits with no counters due to being meta locked.

Oh, so nothing changes then.

Be careful what you wish for. Meta lock will just encourage the cheesiest FTOM fits with no counters due to being meta locked.

Merely curious about this idea. Is it something being worked on, dismissed, considered? Played a Factional where an individual from an undisclosed corp went 32/0 running a Scotsman's suit, Bon's shotgun and Ghalags bolt pistol.

There's a reason noobs don't stay. I had four close friends that I tried getting into this game and all dropped after a month. I encouraged them to keep trying and just keep close to improve their odds. No luck.

Another friend who played this game and loved it now plays DCU!!!!

I've tried keeping a positive attitude but stuff like this is making me a bitter cynical vet.

Sorry for the vent guys. o7

Supposedly Rattati wants meta locked modes or some such idea to be implemented...

But here we are, with a hotfix on the near horizon, and no such thing in sight. Makes one wonder.

Seriously? If you think a meta locked mode is a bad idea... some thoughts come to mind....

Eve has high sec for a reason. NEW PLAYER RETENTION.

Seriously? If you think a meta locked mode is a bad idea... some thoughts come to mind....

Eve has high sec for a reason. NEW PLAYER RETENTION.

Be careful what you wish for. Meta lock will just encourage the cheesiest FTOM fits with no counters due to being meta locked.

Meta lock doesn't fix squad stomps and that's the issue. If a squad q's they should have to wait for a squad to q against them.

The playerbase is too small.

I can already see 1 exploit; Low mu bracket for the newer players who can't afford/unlock proto gear. Higher mu bracket for high end players. Top players see noobs occupy lower mu bracket, they farm there and pad stats

Pros
*Semi balances gameplay by eliminating the proto stomp
*Reduces officer spam
*Reduces jumper suits (this is questionable)
*Less stomps will result in saved isk/better payouts for noobs
*Better games will result in higher SP rewards, speeding up progression for newer players
*Less proto stacking will lower the amount of redline games
*Less redline means players can play as the role they want, encouraging greater diversity amongst roles in games

Cons
*There will still be stomps, although they will have to stomp with strategy and teamwork. Not just hp/dmg advantage.
*Queue times will likely increase unless player base grows at the same time.
*Players will have to mix proto with other levels of kit to fit into lower tiers. PG/CPU will limit module and equipment choices, balancing the use of proto weapons or gear.

It would just be nice if a Dev would acknowledge that this is something they are working on or looking into. The player base is literally killing itself off and noobs won't have a reason to play.
http://m.imgur.com/gallery/6bDQDSM

I wonder how many people take the time too help out the new blueberries i try to help them by explaining suit roles and giving them a couple of mil in isk while showing them that this is a team based game just not every one going to be a team and when there grinding sp and isk i show them a good makeshift logi out of a basic suit and i help most of the time.

The playerbase is too small.

I can already see 1 exploit; Low mu bracket for the newer players who can't afford/unlock proto gear. Higher mu bracket for high end players. Top players see noobs occupy lower mu bracket, they farm there and pad stats

They already do...
They just make a newberry squad leader.
With metalocks at least they will not be sporting proto gear on the new guys. When I watch my friend's games over the last two weeks its a constant farm for guys going 30+kills from Third Rock, Iberica, Groupo, AE, and pretty much all the scrub corps. They are always in proto and always in groups of three plus a random. MK0, CK0, AK0 every game. Its sad. The meta locks would at least help some. The match making is not.

Couple problems with meta lock I can think of. First, the Aurum items have a higher meta level than their equivalent ISK item. I don't know if many people spend money on them but the meta levels would have to all be changed or ccp will simply make less money since people would buy less of them. Or all the ones built up via salvage will simply not be used because it will hinder your ability to maximize your potential within the meta level allowance.

Also I think different meta levels would have to be set for each type of fit. Just from briefly looking at all the apex suits, the Logis and Assaults are all 15-20 meta level higher than the Commandos and Sentinels.

Be careful what you wish for. Meta lock will just encourage the cheesiest FTOM fits with no counters due to being meta locked.

I've noticed a steep change in opposition difficulty when a member of my corp with a low SP count is squad leader vs a member that has 100 million + in SP.

Disagree, plus if they wish they can sell militia or Basic suits for low Aurum cost. Try again. Not to mention if more noobs stayed they would get to higher levels and buy high tier Aurum level suits.

Okay fine, disagree. So that means as things currently are someone who wants to run Aurum items can only run basic gear while people using ISK items get to run advanced gear and they have equal meta level. Sure that makes perfect sense. Or, a Logi can only run basic gear and the Sentinels run advanced gear, with equal meta levels. As things are, both of those would happen or close to it if a meta level cap were implemented.

I am not arguing against a meta level cap, I'm just saying it is a lot more involved to make it work than just picking an arbitrary number and leave everything else the way it is.

Lol all they need to do is make a mode like ambush, Dom, or skirmish where any fitting is invalid if anything about it is higher than basic. I know I make it sound easy but conceptually it's that easy.

Something like that would work, I was thinking more along the lines of picking a number, lets say 40, as the maximum meta level your suit can have with all items combined. I think that is what most people are talking about when it comes to meta cap too.

Something like that would work, I was thinking more along the lines of picking a number, lets say 40, as the maximum meta level your suit can have with all items combined. I think that is what most people are talking about when it comes to meta cap too.

^^^^^^
That's how it is supposed to work. A combined number. You can have whatever you want as long as you come in under the number. That gives a lot of personal freedom for fits and limits stomping.

Lol all they need to do is make a mode like ambush, Dom, or skirmish where any fitting is invalid if anything about it is higher than basic. I know I make it sound easy but conceptually it's that easy.

This is the sort of meta lock that I'm really against. Never underestimate Dust players ability to break the game. I've just made a thread that will hopefully highlight my concerns.

It would be better than the way things are now.

Meta lock doesn't fix squad stomps and that's the issue. If a squad q's they should have to wait for a squad to q against them.

This is the sort of meta lock that I'm really against. Never underestimate Dust players ability to break the game. I've just made a thread that will hopefully highlight my concerns.

I just did an example in that thread.....

At this point it would have to be a tier-lock not a meta-lock.

Militia contracts: MLT suits and weapons only. Mods are crazy hard to fit on MLT frames even with max skills.

Lore it up with something like:

"Concord has allowed your local station to offer simple garrisons in surrounding systems. As these battles take place in high sec space, equipment will be restricted to minimize property damage and civilian casualties.

As the engagements are of a lesser threat level, the isk you will receive will also be lesser. However, the experiences will serve your combat training as well as any other encounter would. See your station contracts officer for more information."

Newberries can get their sp on without being smeared. (too hard)
Vets can grind out their dailys.
Tryhards still have two modes to tryhard in.
(Q sync in this mode will happen, but will lead to less stomps)

Lower isk payout reflects lower cost of fittings.
No sp change because that hurts newbros.

And maybe tune the salvage (if possible) to more components, fitted fits, broken bits, and std gear. As these are the things plants crave.

I just did an example in that thread.....

At this point it would have to be a tier-lock not a meta-lock.

Militia contracts: MLT suits and weapons only. Mods are crazy hard to fit on MLT frames even with max skills.

Lore it up with something like:

"Concord has allowed your local station to offer simple garrisons in surrounding systems. As these battles take place in high sec space, equipment will be restricted to minimize property damage and civilian casualties.

As the engagements are of a lesser threat level, the isk you will receive will also be lesser. However, the experiences will serve your combat training as well as any other encounter would. See your station contracts officer for more information."

Newberries can get their sp on without being smeared. (too hard)
Vets can grind out their dailys.
Tryhards still have two modes to tryhard in.
(Q sync in this mode will happen, but will lead to less stomps)

Lower isk payout reflects lower cost of fittings.
No sp change because that hurts newbros.

And maybe tune the salvage (if possible) to more components, fitted fits, broken bits, and std gear. As these are the things plants crave.

Even with passive perks in play I don't think that's as detrimental to a newberry as a fully loaded Vet with a Proto suit. Like I said the biggest threat is an organized squad, skill, and passive SP perks. Still not nearly as threatening as the way things are.

Merely curious about this idea. Is it something being worked on, dismissed, considered? Played a Factional where an individual from an undisclosed corp went 32/0 running a Scotsman's suit, Bon's shotgun and Ghalags bolt pistol.

There's a reason noobs don't stay. I had four close friends that I tried getting into this game and all dropped after a month. I encouraged them to keep trying and just keep close to improve their odds. No luck.

Another friend who played this game and loved it now plays DCU!!!!

I've tried keeping a positive attitude but stuff like this is making me a bitter cynical vet.

Sorry for the vent guys. o7

That's because it only uses the squad leader's MU score to find matches. So be a THIRD ROCK or Latino scrub and go to squad finder and find a guy with a generic corp name and join him. Make him think you like him, hell send him a little ISK or gear and he will hook you up for days with padded K/D. Its good for about a week until the Tuesday reset then he is screwed by being moved into the higher MU bracket at 3 million SPs, but then the d bags move on to the next victim. I see it everyday not occasionally. I have been watching a friend's games over the last couple weeks and that's the way every game goes. Three guys killing 100 clones in AK0s and carthiums. Think I'll just start a thread with a list of the scrubs I see in there next week. Maybe some of the corp CEOs will grow some balls and get a handle on their members. The are not achieving thier required K/D actually fighting competition. Its killing the NPE to let this go on.
The funniest one is Cryptic Soldier from AE. Always loves the fact he can one hit starter fits with a Thales. Seen him try to snipe countless times so I just have my friend sniper him as soon as I see him on the other team list when the game starts and he loses a Thales so he rage quits before his clone bleeds out. Nothing like sending kids crying home.

I agree to a point, skills are less detrimental than STD vs PRO. I do believe that passive modifiers are detrimental enough to cause a problem.

I've been wanting to work this out for a while, so this is mostly because I'm interested to see the numbers.

Using an Assault M1 with 2 x Basic Shield Extenders, 2 x Basic Ferroscales, 2x Basic Light Damage Mods and a Combat Rifle the new player that has just unlocked the gear has:
288 Shield HP
271 Armor HP
and does:
24 HP/round damage to Shield
32.8 HP/round damage to Armor

Conversely, the vet with V's in the applicable skills and augmented ammo V has:
335.1 Shield HP
314.5 Armor HP
and does:
25.2 HP/round damage to shield
39.6 HP/round damage to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (335.1/24) + (314.5/32.8) =~ 23.5 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/25.2) + (271/39.6) =~ 18.3 rounds

Even in the exact same suit, a new player going toe to toe with a vet needs to land about 30% more shots to come out on top.

And supposedly noobs just need to git gud, right? So basically you've played the game longer, you have knowledge advantage and also a combat advantage and people just need to git gud. Right.

Great info, I will be stealing this and requoting you across many threads.

The best solution is non sharing of scans, only the operator of the scanner sees on his tacnet.

keep your proto squads and social aspect, and use your communication to get enemy position from your gal logi.

Looks like today is going to be a numbers day for me. Keep in mind that what I outlined almost never happens, that is a vet going into a pub in STD gear.

Keeping the new player in STD gear (because let's face it, isk and SP limits are real for them) and;

Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at ADV level gives them:
372.5 Shield HP
347.5 Armor HP
and they do:
27.3 HP/round to Shield
43.1 HP/round to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (372.5/24) + (347.5/32.8) =~ 26.1 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/27.3) + (271/43.1) =~ 16.8 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in ADV gear needs to land about 55% more shots to come out on top.

Now things get nasty
Putting the vet into the same fit with everything at PRO level gives them:
407.7 Shield HP
402.5 Armor HP
and they do:
30.45 HP/round to Shield
46.8 HP/round to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/30.45) + (271/46.8) =~ 15.2 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear needs to land about 93% more shots to come out on top.


I admit this is a rare(ish) case, but if the vet puts on their try hard pants and pulls out an officer weapon:

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (407.7/24) + (402.5/32.8) =~ 29.25 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/33.6) + (271/51.5) =~ 13.8 rounds

A new player going toe to toe with a vet in PRO gear with an OFC weapon needs to land about 112% more shots to come out on top.

My friends quit because they had poor isk management skills ._.

I agree to a point, skills are less detrimental than STD vs PRO. I do believe that passive modifiers are detrimental enough to cause a problem.

I've been wanting to work this out for a while, so this is mostly because I'm interested to see the numbers.

Using an Assault M1 with 2 x Basic Shield Extenders, 2 x Basic Ferroscales, 2x Basic Light Damage Mods and a Combat Rifle the new player that has just unlocked the gear has:
288 Shield HP
271 Armor HP
and does:
24 HP/round damage to Shield
32.8 HP/round damage to Armor

Conversely, the vet with V's in the applicable skills and augmented ammo V has:
335.1 Shield HP
314.5 Armor HP
and does:
25.2 HP/round damage to shield
39.6 HP/round damage to Armor

For the new player to take down the vet they need to land (335.1/24) + (314.5/32.8) =~ 23.5 rounds
For the vet to take down the new player they need to land (288/25.2) + (271/39.6) =~ 18.3 rounds

Even in the exact same suit, a new player going toe to toe with a vet needs to land about 30% more shots to come out on top.

Meta lock is stupid I made a rattati suit with better stats ( one I'd much rather run than my best proto ) at a 28 mu than a full proto suit that had a mu of 68. Mu can be manipulated and meta locked matches would be twisted and become a joke.

Then don't play it. It is however badly needed.

When I hear 'Meta Lock' I think of the total meta of the suit + modules. This could be gamed and would put the new players in a worse situation than before.

What I think a lot of us are talking about is a 'Tier Lock'. That is, no use of gear above ADV (maybe even STD) level. This is much less open to exploitation and is my preferred system.