DUST Search - Lackluster weapons that could easily be balanced

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Varoth Drac wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Breach Shotgun
* Clipsize: 2 ---> 4
* Optimal Range: 5M ---> 7M
* Reload Speed: 1.3s ---> 1.0s
* Rate of Fire: 60 RPM ---> 72 RPM

MagSec SMG
* 25-50% recoil reduction while aiming-down-sights

How about breach shotgun:

Clip 2 -> 2 (same)
Range 5 -> 10
Reload 1.3 - > 0.8

The whole point of the 2 round clip is its like the double barrelled shotgun, so this shouldn't change. The gun should be good with this premise intact. 10m range would give the weapon a great place on the battlefield, much more viable on a wide range of suits. The reload speed is currently ludicrous. There's no need for it to be slower than a regular shotgun, per shot.

I don't know that the intended design is to emulate a double barreled shotgun. If it is, then why is RoF so low? Shouldn't a double barreled shotgun empty both barrels in rapid succession if not simultaneously? I think it much more likely that the 2 round clip is an outdated hold-back from Chromosome, when 1 breach blast was sufficient to drop most medframes and 2 was sufficient to kill anything.

Edit: Not that I'd oppose your proposed changes; a 10m, tight-spread shotgun could be very useful.

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DRT 99 RAT PATROL INC. 502	Posted - 2015.08.10 03:11:00 - [1] - Quote So i figure I could try to give CCP a hand in their efforts to improve underperforming weapons and weapon variations by suggesting small changes that would improve weapons without making them OP. For starters im going out of my way to try and avoid straight damage buffs, but i feel like it will be a necessary evil at some point. Basic assault rifle- Increased movement speed while ADS. I used to play alot of CoD (yeah yeah, throw whatever you want at me), more specifically black ops 2. I dont know how many of you played it so ill give you a quick rundown. In general, SMGs and Rifles were pretty close together (with a few exceptions) as far as average time to kill goes. SMGs obviously had less range, but the thing that keps them (in many players eyes) superior over rifles was their mobility. One of these aspects was that they could move faster while ADS. Now im not exactly sure how easy this would be to implement. From what i recall all weapons set speed to x0.6 while ADS except the sniper, which slows players down more. Maybe have the AR ADS speed at x0.8? Breach Mass Driver- Full damage to vehicles As we learned with the AHMG, it is possiblle for different weapons in the same category to perform differently vs vehicles and dropsuits. It has been suggested before in ill restate it here for consitency, breach mass driver as an AV weapon just makes sense. Another reason for this - and i am biased here - is because i and many others skilled into minmando for AV. With CCP considering moving the swarm bonus from min to cal , this sort of screws over anyone who skilled minmando for AV. This way there is atleast an alternative that will fill the same role. Breach Forge Gun- Let players move Immobilising players for 6 seconds in any situation is a death sentence, and even worse vs Tanks. If the BFG allowed players to move while charging, im confident it would match the AFG in popularity, and i know it would become my FG of choice. Basic Forge Gun- Clip Size and reserve ammo The Basic FG is obsoleted almost completely but the assault variant. Im thinking an increase in magazine size to 5 (maybe 6?) and reserve ammo would be justified. One thing to keep in mind is that as a heavy weapon, a forge gunner cant carry nanohives, and therefore becomes either tethered to a supply depot or overly reliant on their squad. Increase in clip size would be just to make it more competitive vs the BFG and AFG, and in order to help newer players by punishing missed shots less than the other variations. Will add more when my brain resumes working
CallMeNoName Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 0	Posted - 2015.08.10 04:05:00 - [2] - Quote (First post on the forums for me much?) Personally, I feel that Assault Rifles are in their place for the time being, but a change would be nice. It might actually need some rebalancing, along with other light weapons, because ARs are THE most purchased weapons, with a ~2:1 ratio to any other light weapons, just check over here. Other than that, I agree with your point regarding Forge Gun ammo. I used to run FG, and starting out was a nightmare when considering ammo conservation, supply depots being my only hope. The BFG, on the other hand, SHOULD allow players to move, but at a slower ~50% of the original walk speed. Maybe just allow the players to move at 70%, but make them receive a minor movement speed after firing a shot? Driving off the topic of lackluster, I do feel one weapon type in particular might need a debuff. The Sniper Rifle. I'm not saying to directly nerf them, but maybe add a HEFTY damage reduction when sitting behind the Red Line. I know I sound QQ and all, but I don't believe that someone should just sit away in safety, taking potshots at ants in the distance, with the only way of stopping them being a team-mate switching to the same class, then spending 5 minutes looking for them behind hills and structures.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.10 04:33:00 - [3] - Quote Breach Shotgun * Clipsize: 2 ---> 4 * Optimal Range: 5M ---> 7M * Reload Speed: 1.3s ---> 1.0s * Rate of Fire: 60 RPM ---> 72 RPM Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.08.10 09:47:00 - [4] - Quote Scrambler Rifle: Damage increase to 90. That'd fix the problem. Home at Last <3
Alaika Arbosa No Context 2	Posted - 2015.08.10 12:30:00 - [5] - Quote Do Want BMD as AV, I could finally use something other than an APEX Atlas for AV (other than my old standby, PE + AV nades) I <3 introducing reddots to ragdoll physics!
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 2	Posted - 2015.08.10 22:07:00 - [6] - Quote These are all better ideas than I was expecting. I'm not so sure about the AR though... I see it all the time in the killfeed. Perhaps you mean a specific variant? CPM Platform
LOL KILLZ LOS INADAPTADOS 288	Posted - 2015.08.11 04:17:00 - [7] - Quote I'd like an Amarr HMG. Think Mini Warbarge Laser But fo real I'd like the scrambler pistol looked at \0/
Vulpes Dolosus Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 3	Posted - 2015.08.11 05:20:00 - [8] - Quote On top of what you said for breach MDs, give them the same velocity and trajectory as flaylock pistols or plasma cannons. This will make hitting body shots and moving vehicles much easier, making it a lot more useful. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
DRT 99 RAT PATROL INC. The Empire of New Eden 507	Posted - 2015.08.11 06:53:00 - [9] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breach Shotgun * Clipsize: 2 ---> 4 * Optimal Range: 5M ---> 7M * Reload Speed: 1.3s ---> 1.0s * Rate of Fire: 60 RPM ---> 72 RPM MagSec SMG * 25-50% recoil reduction while aiming-down-sights The magsec i like, but the breach shotty looks alittle excessive. what if it only got 2 of the 4?. IMO the basic shotgun needs to be reworked to more range, less damage, and I believe ratatti was considering something simillar some time ago. regardless i'd stay away from a ROF bonus though, in ratatti's own words, shotty is bordering on OP in the right hands Talos Vagheitan wrote: I'm not so sure about the AR though... I see it all the time in the killfeed. Perhaps you mean a specific variant? basic variant. my experience with it sees it as underperforming very slightly, which aligns with that i see on the forums. Small buff to increase usability might be the answer. Vulpes Dolosus wrote: On top of what you said for breach MDs, give them the same velocity and trajectory as flaylock pistols or plasma cannons. This will make hitting body shots and moving vehicles much easier, making it a lot more useful. I like this, obviously more range than the flaylock though, also gives it a decent chance vs DSs
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.11 12:37:00 - [10] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breach Shotgun * Clipsize: 2 ---> 4 * Optimal Range: 5M ---> 7M * Reload Speed: 1.3s ---> 1.0s * Rate of Fire: 60 RPM ---> 72 RPM ... the breach shotty looks alittle excessive. what if it only got 2 of the 4?. IMO the basic shotgun needs to be reworked to more range, less damage, and I believe ratatti was considering something simillar some time ago. regardless i'd stay away from a ROF bonus though, in ratatti's own words, shotty is bordering on OP in the right hands Much has changed since Rattati last said that the Shotgun was OP or bordering OP ... falloff inner rings, myofib get-of-jail-free jumps, removal of TacNet directional arrows, massive decloak delay, and others. Also, he was referring to the vanilla shotgun and has long agreed that the Breach Shotgun is in bad shape. I doubt that all four of the above changes would make the Breach Shotgun overpowered; the standard shotgun would likely still be the faster killing and more reliable weapon. But I cannot spitball anything with certainty, nor can I argue against iteration. If asked to pick two first, I'd go with ... Breach Shotgun - Iteration Round I * Clipsize: 2 ---> 4 * Rate of Rife: 60RPM ---> 72 RPM ^ These would bring the Breach Shotgun's Damage per Second and Damage per Clip closer to that of the regular Shotgun. The current clipsize of 2 is especially problematic; you can't deal enough damage per clip to kill tanked Sent. 2 rounds/clip made sense in Chromosome when HP were less and 2 blasts were all you needed to kill a target. Anywho, if the weapon is still bad after the first round of iteration, I'd propose we followup with the remaining changes: Breach Shotgun - Iteration Round II * Optimal Range: 5M ---> 7M * Reload Speed: 1.3s ---> 1.0s Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.11 13:43:00 - [11] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breach Shotgun * Clipsize: 2 ---> 4 * Optimal Range: 5M ---> 7M * Reload Speed: 1.3s ---> 1.0s * Rate of Fire: 60 RPM ---> 72 RPM MagSec SMG * 25-50% recoil reduction while aiming-down-sights How about breach shotgun: Clip 2 -> 2 (same) Range 5 -> 10 Reload 1.3 - > 0.8 The whole point of the 2 round clip is its like the double barrelled shotgun, so this shouldn't change. The gun should be good with this premise intact. 10m range would give the weapon a great place on the battlefield, much more viable on a wide range of suits. The reload speed is currently ludicrous. There's no need for it to be slower than a regular shotgun, per shot.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.11 13:52:00 - [12] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breach Shotgun * Clipsize: 2 ---> 4 * Optimal Range: 5M ---> 7M * Reload Speed: 1.3s ---> 1.0s * Rate of Fire: 60 RPM ---> 72 RPM MagSec SMG * 25-50% recoil reduction while aiming-down-sights How about breach shotgun: Clip 2 -> 2 (same) Range 5 -> 10 Reload 1.3 - > 0.8 The whole point of the 2 round clip is its like the double barrelled shotgun, so this shouldn't change. The gun should be good with this premise intact. 10m range would give the weapon a great place on the battlefield, much more viable on a wide range of suits. The reload speed is currently ludicrous. There's no need for it to be slower than a regular shotgun, per shot. I don't know that the intended design is to emulate a double barreled shotgun. If it is, then why is RoF so low? Shouldn't a double barreled shotgun empty both barrels in rapid succession if not simultaneously? I think it much more likely that the 2 round clip is a hold-back from Chromosome, when 1 round was sufficient to drop most medframes and 2 was sufficient to kill anything. Edit: Not that I'd oppose your proposed changes; a 10m, tight-spread shotgun could be very useful. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 1	Posted - 2015.08.11 14:44:00 - [13] - Quote Burst ScP, anyone? Let's just start at giving it the correct amount of ammo. Most weapons carry 5 clips worth of ammo in reserve. The Burst ScP currently can only be reloaded twice before having to look for ammo. I propose bumping it up to 144 total ammo. At 24 shots per magazine that's 5 mags in reserve.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.11 16:44:00 - [14] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breach Shotgun * Clipsize: 2 ---> 4 * Optimal Range: 5M ---> 7M * Reload Speed: 1.3s ---> 1.0s * Rate of Fire: 60 RPM ---> 72 RPM MagSec SMG * 25-50% recoil reduction while aiming-down-sights How about breach shotgun: Clip 2 -> 2 (same) Range 5 -> 10 Reload 1.3 - > 0.8 The whole point of the 2 round clip is its like the double barrelled shotgun, so this shouldn't change. The gun should be good with this premise intact. 10m range would give the weapon a great place on the battlefield, much more viable on a wide range of suits. The reload speed is currently ludicrous. There's no need for it to be slower than a regular shotgun, per shot. I don't know that the intended design is to emulate a double barreled shotgun. If it is, then why is RoF so low? Shouldn't a double barreled shotgun empty both barrels in rapid succession if not simultaneously? I think it much more likely that the 2 round clip is an outdated hold-back from Chromosome, when 1 breach blast was sufficient to drop most medframes and 2 was sufficient to kill anything. Edit: Not that I'd oppose your proposed changes; a 10m, tight-spread shotgun could be very useful. I'd be surprised if that's not the original intent. The slow rate of fire is probably an attempt to make the gun work in dust. I could be wrong. Two shots in a clip is quite distinctive. It would be a shame to lose this in my opinion.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.11 16:46:00 - [15] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breach Shotgun * Clipsize: 2 ---> 4 * Optimal Range: 5M ---> 7M * Reload Speed: 1.3s ---> 1.0s * Rate of Fire: 60 RPM ---> 72 RPM MagSec SMG * 25-50% recoil reduction while aiming-down-sights How about breach shotgun: Clip 2 -> 2 (same) Range 5 -> 10 Reload 1.3 - > 0.8 The whole point of the 2 round clip is its like the double barrelled shotgun, so this shouldn't change. The gun should be good with this premise intact. 10m range would give the weapon a great place on the battlefield, much more viable on a wide range of suits. The reload speed is currently ludicrous. There's no need for it to be slower than a regular shotgun, per shot. I don't know that the intended design is to emulate a double barreled shotgun. If it is, then why is RoF so low? Shouldn't a double barreled shotgun empty both barrels in rapid succession if not simultaneously? I think it much more likely that the 2 round clip is an outdated hold-back from Chromosome, when 1 breach blast was sufficient to drop most medframes and 2 was sufficient to kill anything. Edit: Not that I'd oppose your proposed changes; a 10m, tight-spread shotgun could be very useful. I'd be surprised if that's not the original intent. The slow rate of fire is probably an attempt to make the gun work in dust. I could be wrong. Two shots in a clip is quite distinctive. It would be a shame to lose this in my opinion.
DRT 99 RAT PATROL INC. The Empire of New Eden 511	Posted - 2015.08.11 17:04:00 - [16] - Quote i do agree that the 2 shot clip has to go, it is one of the major reasons the weapon is so hard to use
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.11 17:40:00 - [17] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: i do agree that the 2 shot clip has to go, it is one of the major reasons the weapon is so hard to use EDIT: Updated OP, added some sidearms Doubling the range would make it much easier. Who said the weapon should be easy? It's potentially devestating.
CallMeNoName Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 4	Posted - 2015.08.11 17:45:00 - [18] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: CallMeNoName wrote: The BFG, on the other hand, SHOULD allow players to move, but at a slower ~50% of the original walk speed. Maybe just allow the players to move at 70%, but make them receive a minor movement speed after firing a shot? The basic and assault variants currently slow you to about 50% when building or holding a charge. On that note, and alittle off topic, what about... Tactical Forge Gun Smaller clip size than basic, same in all other aspects. maybe higher fittings. Move at full speed while firing What about the BFG receiving a little more move speed reduction on top of the 50% (like 30&) and leaving a small trail, noticable to a trained eye after being fired? Just like Swarms and Plas Cannons leaving a noticeable location/direction after being fired, it would allow people to see where the 2k damage payload came from. Not sure about the Tactical variant though, the move speed seems a bit high. Here's what I have in mind for it Tactical Forge Gun -50% of the original clip size -Firing a shot would result in a temporary 25% move speed penalty (like 2 seconds). ~Original (50%) move speed while charging a shot ~Damage remains the same as the normal FG, increases the same when going up to ADV and PRO +15% faster charging speed (stacks with Skill bonus) +25% faster reload speed (stacks with Skill bonus) +Full move speed when storing a shot (excluding sprint, sprint would cancel)
DRT 99 RAT PATROL INC. The Empire of New Eden 512	Posted - 2015.08.11 17:46:00 - [19] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: DRT 99 wrote: i do agree that the 2 shot clip has to go, it is one of the major reasons the weapon is so hard to use EDIT: Updated OP, added some sidearms Doubling the range would make it much easier. Who said the weapon should be easy? It's potentially devestating. there is a difference between easy to use and overpowered. see ratattis comment some time ago about the shotty being OP 'in the right hands'. To be honest after thinking about it i'd be more of a fan of REDUCING the damage (slightly below basic variant) with either the same or a higher RoF in comparison to the basic variant, Increasing Clip size to 8 and giving it the same reload speed as the basic shotgun, but keeping the reduced dispersion and going with the double range you suggested.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.11 17:51:00 - [20] - Quote DRT 99 wrote: there is a difference between easy to use and overpowered. see ratattis comment some time ago about the shotty being OP 'in the right hands'. Again, much has changed since Rattati said that ... falloff inner rings, myofib get-out-of-jail-free jumps, removal of TacNet directional arrows, massive decloak delay, significant decline in scout usage, etc. Rattati's comment is no longer current, and it never applied to the Breach Shotgun. The Breach Shotgun is severely underpowered. Buffing it within reason will not make it easy to use or overpowered. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

DRT 99 RAT PATROL INC. The Empire of New Eden 518	Posted - 2015.08.11 18:01:00 - [21] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: DRT 99 wrote: there is a difference between easy to use and overpowered. see ratattis comment some time ago about the shotty being OP 'in the right hands'. Again, much has changed since Rattati said that ... falloff inner rings, myofib get-out-of-jail-free jumps, removal of TacNet directional arrows, massive decloak delay, significant decline in scout usage, etc. Rattati's comment is no longer current, and it never applied to the Breach Shotgun. The Breach Shotgun is severely underpowered. Buffing it within reason will not make it easy to use or overpowered. i realise that it might not apply anymore, in this case i just used what he said as an example. I also realise that the breach shotty is underpowered, but i also do not want to see it overbuffed. IMO keeping the same damage, increasing both range and RPM would be overbuffing it, even with the 2 shot clip
DRT 99 RAT PATROL INC. The Empire of New Eden 518	Posted - 2015.08.12 07:38:00 - [22] - Quote bump, updated OP
Sardonk Eternia Tiny Universe 371	Posted - 2015.08.12 21:45:00 - [23] - Quote Some good ideas here! (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
DRT 99 RAT PATROL INC. The Empire of New Eden 545	Posted - 2015.08.22 06:17:00 - [24] - Quote Some more Weapons Assault Swarm Launcher Reduced Range -100ish meters lock on, 150ish missile flight Increased Clipsize and Reduced lock on time OR increased missiles per volley Will add more soon Additionally, i see that all non rifle weapon variations are still more expensive than their vanilla variants, and im not sure if this is intentional or an oversight.


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