The Amarr Scout definitely is a victim of having no role whatsoever.

The Gallente Scout is a stealth specialist. The Caldari Scout is good at stealth and decent at scanning. The Minmatar Scout is the best for hacking and general CQC fighting.

The Amarr Scout was supposed to be the Scout hunter. They were supposed to be able to track down any scout with their large stamina pool, and after their Precision buff they were supposed to be able to track nearly all scouts. As you said, they are a victim of the module layout.

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A new skill should be added that increases scan range, on top of their current bonuses.

Post

Another post

Thoughts?

Every point in your assessment is on point. You nailed it.

The only things I'd add are (1) that if you want to duck scans yourself to increase your odds of survival, you'll have to run damps in 2 of your 4 low slots; and (2) assuming you're fit for maximum effect at recon, there aren't many viable options available to you for earning kills or warpoints in a competitive environment.

Believe it or not, this reads exactly like something Appia might have posted in the EWAR discussion last December. Assuming she were in a good mood :-) As for what to do, I'm not sure anymore. I suspect we'll need to wait-and-see just how hard these units are hit by 8x and 16x shared passives in PC.

I suspect the optimal solution to the AM Scout problem will involve either recasting it as something wholly removed from recon (i.e. biotic scout) or tweaking Falloff to permit a return of Range Extenders.

Yanno, honest to god, if we could hack equipment I could see the Amarr Scout as a force to be reconed with for flipping less obvious drop uplink placements. Might even be a really competitive role in PC to have an Amarr Scout running the perimeter of an outpost and just destroying/flipping drop uplinks, what with it's increased precision and range.

Love it! Progress!

Now we have a ~300HP AM Scout running around behind enemy lines with 2 Precision Enhancers, 2 Damps and 2 Range Extenders. Like a surfacing submarine, our saboteur pops in and out of cloak from time to time to scan his surroundings for hostiles and hostile EQ. If everything's clear, he reactivates cloak proceeds to hack enemy EQ for +X WP per flip; this unit's operational risk/reward are now in better balance. As Hacked EQ consumes bandwidth at 50% face value, the AM Scout's increased supply of bandwidth sets him apart from other Scouts in this capacity.

Potential problem: CalScout Role Bleed

With HF Charlie, the role of Recon Scout was split between two races. The AM Scout role become high-intensity / low-range recon. The CA Scout role become low-intensity / long-range recon. Falloff mixed everything up, but these designs remain in place. If the AM Scout's bonus were changed to high-intensity / high-range, he would directly overlap CalScout's low-intensity / long-range recon. This is a potential problem. The CalScout's ranged scans fit his weaponry, lore and even APEX design.

*

1. Instead of a walking radar, the Amarr scout is better used like any other scout. By which I mean running behind enemy lines, taking out lone targets, dropping links, hacking, distracting, flanking etc.



2. The stamina bonus is useful for this. The Amarr scout has always had the stamina bonus, it wasn't tacked on following scanning nerfs or anything like that. Stamina has always been the defining feature.


3. No precision mods. Here the Amarr scout has a distinct advantage over other scouts. An Amarr scout with no mods will scan assaults at 30m, unlike any other scout. In built up CQC environments, where passives scanning has a purpose, 30 m is a good distance. Other scouts need to be within 15m, half the range.



4. With two precision you get 18db at 15m. With most scouts focused on hiding from 21db Gal logi scans, this is a decent number. Whilst 15m isn't far, it can still hold a purpose. Standing with a squad trying to counter scouts will be difficult with this range. But if you actually go out and perform the normal scout role, you may well find you have an advantage over other scouts. In scout v scout CQC environments, being able to detect a scout around a corner before they detect you is a great advantage. The ttk on a scout is so low, this short prior warning is often all you need to come out on top.



5. At the moment scouts tend not to get scanned,

.

Honestly, I could see the Amarr Scout as more of a Squad Support role as far as Scouts go. Just dunno how to do it without it bleeding over into the Cal Scout's role. The Cal Scout could just as easily take on the equipment hacker, given it's scan range, whereas the Amarr Scout could be more combative. A sort of fast skirmisher, if anything. S'what I use it for right now, albeit it is pretty difficult to actually -FEEL- like I matter to the squad and the lack of WP accrual from anything I'm doing reflects that.

Dunno. Will think about it more while I'm on break.

*Skip to the last paragraph to see where I agree with Aeon.

I think people are looking at this the wrong way.

In the past the Cal scout had dual range and precision bonuses, back when passive scanning was more powerful. They would sit there with a squad and provide an almost impenetrable defence for squadmates against scouts.

This was poor game design, for two major reasons.

1. It rendered all stealth gameplay redundant, unless you had a massively dampened Gal scout. Scout's main purpose is stealth. So in competitive environments only Cal and Gal scouts existed.

2. The Cal scout gameplay was very uninteresting. They were essentially reduced to a walking radar. Sticking close to the squad with poor stats other than shared scanning. There was little opportunity to actually act in the battle, or make use of the scout's main attributes of speed and stealth.

Instead of a walking radar, the Amarr scout is better used like any other scout. By which I mean running behind enemy lines, taking out lone targets, dropping links, hacking, distracting, flanking etc.

The stamina bonus is useful for this. The Amarr scout has always had the stamina bonus, it wasn't tacked on following scanning nerfs or anything like that. Stamina has always been the defining feature.

The precision bonus is not useless. There are two ways to use it.

1. No precision mods. Here the Amarr scout has a distinct advantage over other scouts. An Amarr scout with no mods will scan assaults at 30m, unlike any other scout. In built up CQC environments, where passives scanning has a purpose, 30 m is a good distance. Other scouts need to be within 15m, half the range.

2. With two precision you get 18db at 15m. With most scouts focused on hiding from 21db Gal logi scans, this is a decent number. Whilst 15m isn't far, it can still hold a purpose. Standing with a squad trying to counter scouts will be difficult with this range. But if you actually go out and perform the normal scout role, you may well find you have an advantage over other scouts. In scout v scout CQC environments, being able to detect a scout around a corner before they detect you is a great advantage. The ttk on a scout is so low, this short prior warning is often all you need to come out on top.

I don't think the video is a very good example.
It was right out in the open, where passive scans aren't terribly useful.
He won the engagement.
He did spot the guy on radar.
The scout wasn't initially attacking him, they just bumped into each other. You can tell this from the fact he was cloaked.
The scout may have avoided the 18db middle ring, but unless he was massively damped, this may be due to the cloak. If he was attacking Aeon, or in a more built up area he wouldn't have been cloaked and Aeon probably would have picked him up further out.
In the open where the enemy scout is running full speed from A to B he will cross your scan range too quickly for it to be useful. In other situations he won't be running directly towards the Amarr scout, giving more time to react.

The key thing is, it's a scout hunter, not a scout defender. You should be out sneaking around, being ready to pounce on unsuspecting scouts. Not waiting for them to approach you.

Passive scans were nerfed as they were considered OP. People also didn't like that you counter scouts with more scouts. Also, using scanning to counter scouts anyway, is wrong if it's too easy. At the moment scouts tend not to get scanned, and they aren't overpowered. A reliable scout scanning counter is a bad idea.

I do agree with Aeon that the Amarr scout's bonuses aren't as useful as the other scouts'. With all the issues in the past about passive scans, I don't think this is the area to buff. Perhaps we should look at the original idea of Amarr scouts. When they were introduced they just had bonuses to stamina and stamina regen. This was obviously worse than the other scout bonuses, but was the identity. I have heard people suggesting making the Amarr bonus a bonus to biotics in general. So myos, cardiacs and kincats. Biotics are modules that scouts often use (mainly kincats). I think this would be very popular, particularly with the recent popularity of biotics on other suits. It is also in line with the original Amarr scout design principle.

*Skip to the last paragraph to see where I agree with Aeon.

I think people are looking at this the wrong way.

In the past the Cal scout had dual range and precision bonuses, back when passive scanning was more powerful. They would sit there with a squad and provide an almost impenetrable defence for squadmates against scouts.

This was poor game design, for two major reasons.

1. It rendered all stealth gameplay redundant, unless you had a massively dampened Gal scout. Scout's main purpose is stealth. So in competitive environments only Cal and Gal scouts existed.

2. The Cal scout gameplay was very uninteresting. They were essentially reduced to a walking radar. Sticking close to the squad with poor stats other than shared scanning. There was little opportunity to actually act in the battle, or make use of the scout's main attributes of speed and stealth.

Instead of a walking radar, the Amarr scout is better used like any other scout. By which I mean running behind enemy lines, taking out lone targets, dropping links, hacking, distracting, flanking etc.

The stamina bonus is useful for this. The Amarr scout has always had the stamina bonus, it wasn't tacked on following scanning nerfs or anything like that. Stamina has always been the defining feature.

The precision bonus is not useless. There are two ways to use it.

1. No precision mods. Here the Amarr scout has a distinct advantage over other scouts. An Amarr scout with no mods will scan assaults at 30m, unlike any other scout. In built up CQC environments, where passives scanning has a purpose, 30 m is a good distance. Other scouts need to be within 15m, half the range.

2. With two precision you get 18db at 15m. With most scouts focused on hiding from 21db Gal logi scans, this is a decent number. Whilst 15m isn't far, it can still hold a purpose. Standing with a squad trying to counter scouts will be difficult with this range. But if you actually go out and perform the normal scout role, you may well find you have an advantage over other scouts. In scout v scout CQC environments, being able to detect a scout around a corner before they detect you is a great advantage. The ttk on a scout is so low, this short prior warning is often all you need to come out on top.

I don't think the video is a very good example.
It was right out in the open, where passive scans aren't terribly useful.
He won the engagement.
He did spot the guy on radar.
The scout wasn't initially attacking him, they just bumped into each other. You can tell this from the fact he was cloaked.
The scout may have avoided the 18db middle ring, but unless he was massively damped, this may be due to the cloak. If he was attacking Aeon, or in a more built up area he wouldn't have been cloaked and Aeon probably would have picked him up further out.
In the open where the enemy scout is running full speed from A to B he will cross your scan range too quickly for it to be useful. In other situations he won't be running directly towards the Amarr scout, giving more time to react.

The key thing is, it's a scout hunter, not a scout defender. You should be out sneaking around, being ready to pounce on unsuspecting scouts. Not waiting for them to approach you.

Passive scans were nerfed as they were considered OP. People also didn't like that you counter scouts with more scouts. Also, using scanning to counter scouts anyway, is wrong if it's too easy. At the moment scouts tend not to get scanned, and they aren't overpowered. A reliable scout scanning counter is a bad idea.

I do agree with Aeon that the Amarr scout's bonuses aren't as useful as the other scouts'. With all the issues in the past about passive scans, I don't think this is the area to buff. Perhaps we should look at the original idea of Amarr scouts. When they were introduced they just had bonuses to stamina and stamina regen. This was obviously worse than the other scout bonuses, but was the identity. I have heard people suggesting making the Amarr bonus a bonus to biotics in general. So myos, cardiacs and kincats. Biotics are modules that scouts often use (mainly kincats). I think this would be very popular, particularly with the recent popularity of biotics on other suits. It is also in line with the original Amarr scout design principle.

The EQ flipper would be an awesome role, but I imagine it would also be alot of work to implement. Here's what I'm thinking, and I think it'd be doable:

Google Doc

Instead of a second racial bonus, increase AM Scout bandwidth (credit: Ripley Riley). The AM Scout would become the premier Uplink Runner and would be extremely useful in PC. Fit for combat, Biotic+Armor builds would be as viable as any other combat-oriented Scout. Fit for fun, straight biotic builds would be an absolute blast to run in pubs.

Of all the AM Scouts in Dust's history, Lightning xVx and Djinn Marauder were the most infamous and effective. Their playstyles/loadouts were polar opposites; one ran heavy biotics and light tank, the other ran heavy tank and light biotics. Different as they were deadly, I believe that both support this proposal.

What do you think?

I dunno, it seems so contradictory to the Amarr to run biotics. That's more of a Minmatar sort of deal - quick in and outs, skirmishing, guerilla tactics. Biotics are an interesting touch, don't get me wrong, but it seems so foreign on the slowest scout suit in the line-up. An armor tanking one at that.

That and we already technically have a drop uplink role, the Amarr Logi, which I thought about just proposing to switch the Amarr Logi and Amarr Scout bonuses (drop uplinks and scan precision respectively) since the Scout is better suited for drop uplinks and the Logi is more durable, making better use of the scans, but this would devalue the design mechanics of Scouts = EWAR and Logi = Equipment (thank KAGEHOSHI for that).

So, all in all, I personally need to think about it some more. Maybe I'll have an epiphany or something but right now, I really dunno.

Dam, I feel your pain with the Amarr Scout and fully share your concerns:
Have been skilling the Amarr Scout to its maximum, as I did with all Amarr suits, but now only run my Gallente scout, which I have skilled to level 1, fitted with militia modules only (2 shields, reps, damp, two kincats, all MLT, Exile AR) , and it performs better than my all proto Amarr Scouts.

Why?
Gallente suit is way faster, therefore not as dependent on armor stacking, can therefore flank better and fall back into cover when need arises. Dunno why, but running, jumping, evading does feel so much more fluid, the Amarr scout just feels heavy (even with 3 complex kincats fitted it feels slow, despite being the faster runner, due to strafe speed differences between the two I guess, which makes it overall less maneuverable).

Its scan bonus is crippled by the cloak's range diminishing effect, and the suit's natural scan range makes it even more laughable. I have a better chance spotting enemy scouts by the shimmer of their cloaks, and the Gallente suit does not rely on scan precision as much as to convey a false feeling of safety because of it.

Right now I hate running it, stacking HP is useless as other Amarr suits do it better. I'd love to see it viable as a scout, can't remember it ever was, and running Gallente, as good as it performs even on all-BPO-fitted levels leaves me feeling a bit dirty every time.

In summary: fighting upclose, cannot do proper Damp-game w/o losing HP and speed, can't do proper Scan game w/o losing HP (for scan range) and speed, can't do flanking and range kill game w/o proper scan range, therefore losing HP on range fight. In case I want to make use of the suit's intent (scan superiority), while retaining decent HP and damp or speed instead, I have to neglect the suit bonus and use active scanners, which is ridiculous. But it is the only way to make it work.

If at all, take away its scan precision bonus (as it is useless to begin with in light of how passive works in general atm), and give it something to make it a worthy opponent to the minmatar scout, i.e. a range bonus to scrambler pistols or rifles (preferrably pistols, feels more complement to Minnie scout's knifes).

I've been playing with creative ideas for a while as it pertains to scout racials, still not ready to show all of them yet. And one of the things that I love about the Eve universe is how Force Recons work in Eve, so I was designing them around that, which is more role centric. Without any major overalls, we can make any suit interact with another suit's stat, thus it seems possible to create a debuffer role for scouts.

One example the Amarr scout (or any scout) could have is an AoE Bandwidth Reducer as part of their scanning mechanics (in addition to other things if need be), which could make then extremely effective at removing equipment by overloading enemy Bandwith by playing near hostile units and destroying their equipment if their precision beats out their profile.


The ideas might not be good, but there are ways to differentiate things and add more role utility if need be and I'd rather see more unique traits rather than 3 competing for the exact same thing.

Now THAT, I would like :-)

I've had proto Amarr scout for months now. Running a tank build an the Amarr scout is a bad idea unless you want an assault type fit. I use exclusively ewar. Since Amarr is already slower it's not worth it to try and speed it up to keep up with other scouts. What the Amarr scout excels at is defense. With triple damps and double precision enhancers I can camp a corner and unless it's a triple dampened scout no matter what comes I have scans of it, and it won't scan me. As for the cloak I only use it to escape a firefight, or cover open ground.

I've also modified the fit a bit to have dual flaylocks for highpoint camping. I went 10/5 the other day when it was 2 vs 11.

AmScouts should get some sort of spawn-based bonus, as in inherently faster spawn-ins. And they ought to slightly increase the stamina bonus. Add a few (a few) HPs, and we'd really have something.

I would support precision/range dual bonus.

Ah yes, cause that was *never* a problem on cal scouts.

Oh wait, 1.7 disagrees.

Yes we have scan circles now, but precision & range are still overpowering.

Aeon is presenting his numbers without the semi-intended fitting of 2 complex precision amps, which put it at 23.2db from 15-30m, 17.85 from 6 to 15m, and ~9 db from 0-6. The amarr scout was never intended to have insane passive scan range alongside precision - that HAS been the cause of massive balance issue that we've seen before for a whole year in 1.7-1.8.

Yes I'm being a little bit kneejerky, but this is pretty upsetting to the whole balance of scouts.

So, I'm not as well versed in Amarr Scouts as I'd like to be but I've noticed a few glaring issues.

Passive precision bonus is awesome but.... Without an additional bump up to range it pretty much under-utilizes the bonus. Here's the layout, for those who don't know:

Long-Range Scans: 30m / 35.1 Precision
Medium-Range Scans: 15m / 27 Precision
Short-Range Scans: 6m / 13.5 Precision

So in order to get the most out of that precision you sort of have to run Range Amplifiers, which are low slot modules. This forces you to take away from your potential survivability (armor modules) and profile (profile dampeners). So, either way you're taking away from your potential to live through skirmishes and confrontations. Which wouldn't be bad if it weren't for a few other factors.

One of which is that Cloak Fields reduce your scan range pretty severely - that limits your ability to reduce physical visibility, primarily your only fallback in the eventuality that the enemy is fielding Gallente Logis with Active Scanners. But even still, if you're scanned, you have a chevron on your head, so that point is moot.

The other is that your scan range is significantly shorter than that of an Active Scanner, even being 360 degrees, and the value of that lessened by the lack of WP accrual. You have to gain WP by other means.

Now, make no mistake, I started running Amarr Scout because of the additional squads brought in with Warlords 1.2 (as well as a perpetual fear that Gal Logis are going to be nerfed into oblivion), but I've noticed that it is -very hard- to find a proper place for this thing on the battlefield. In order to get the most out of your bonus and support your team you have to basically be -ON THE FRONTLINE-. This is difficult and hard to do because of the Scouts' natural low survivability accompanied by the fact that Range Amplifiers and Armor Plates take away from your potential to reduce your Profile low enough to be practical.

Honestly, considering that both the Caldari Scout and the Gallente Scout get dual EWAR bonuses (Range/Profile and Precision/Profile, respectively) I think the Amarr Scout could get a major benefit from a dual bonuses of Precision/Range while also completing sort of a 'Scout Triangle' in a way.

Thoughts?

I have the solution for your problem.

Scout Caldari.

2 kincats
2 codebreakers
Precision enhancers
Needle
Uplinks
PLC
bolt pistol

It runs, it hacks, it scares away tanks and blaps fast-hack LLAVs Tremendous fun.