DUST Search - Amarr Scout discussion

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Thoughts?

Every point in your assessment is on point. You nailed it.

The only things I'd add are (1) that if you want to duck scans yourself to increase your odds of survival, you'll have to run damps in 2 of your 4 low slots; and (2) assuming you're fit for maximum effect at recon, there aren't many viable options available to you for earning kills or warpoints in a competitive environment.

Believe it or not, this reads exactly like something Appia might have posted in the EWAR discussion last December. Assuming she were in a good mood :-) As for what to do, I'm not sure anymore. I suspect we'll need to wait-and-see just how hard these units are hit by 8x and 16x shared passives in PC.

I suspect the optimal solution to the AM Scout problem will involve either recasting it as something wholly removed from recon (i.e. biotic scout) or tweaking Falloff to permit a return of Range Extenders.

Yanno, honest to god, if we could hack equipment I could see the Amarr Scout as a force to be reconed with for flipping less obvious drop uplink placements. Might even be a really competitive role in PC to have an Amarr Scout running the perimeter of an outpost and just destroying/flipping drop uplinks, what with it's increased precision and range.

Love it! Progress!

Now we have a ~300HP AM Scout running around behind enemy lines with 2 Precision Enhancers, 2 Damps and 2 Range Extenders. Like a surfacing submarine, our saboteur pops in and out of cloak from time to time to scan his surroundings for hostiles and hostile EQ. If everything's clear, he reactivates cloak proceeds to hack enemy EQ for +X WP per flip; this unit's operational risk/reward are now in better balance. As Hacked EQ consumes bandwidth at 50% face value, the AM Scout's increased supply of bandwidth sets him apart from other Scouts in this capacity.

Potential problem: CalScout Role Bleed

With HF Charlie, the role of Recon Scout was split between two races. The AM Scout role become high-intensity / low-range recon. The CA Scout role become low-intensity / long-range recon. Falloff mixed everything up, but these designs remain in place. If the AM Scout's bonus were changed to high-intensity / high-range, he would directly overlap CalScout's low-intensity / long-range recon. This is a potential problem. The CalScout's ranged scans fit his weaponry, lore and even APEX design.

10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.


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Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.10 01:51:00 - [1] - Quote So, I'm not as well versed in Amarr Scouts as I'd like to be but I've noticed a few glaring issues. Passive precision bonus is awesome but.... Without an additional bump up to range it pretty much under-utilizes the bonus. Here's the layout, for those who don't know: Long-Range Scans: 30m / 35.1 Precision Medium-Range Scans: 15m / 27 Precision Short-Range Scans: 6m / 13.5 Precision So in order to get the most out of that precision you sort of have to run Range Amplifiers, which are low slot modules. This forces you to take away from your potential survivability (armor modules) and profile (profile dampeners). So, either way you're taking away from your potential to live through skirmishes and confrontations. Which wouldn't be bad if it weren't for a few other factors. One of which is that Cloak Fields reduce your scan range pretty severely - that limits your ability to reduce physical visibility, primarily your only fallback in the eventuality that the enemy is fielding Gallente Logis with Active Scanners. But even still, if you're scanned, you have a chevron on your head, so that point is moot. The other is that your scan range is significantly shorter than that of an Active Scanner, even being 360 degrees, and the value of that lessened by the lack of WP accrual. You have to gain WP by other means. Now, make no mistake, I started running Amarr Scout because of the additional squads brought in with Warlords 1.2 (as well as a perpetual fear that Gal Logis are going to be nerfed into oblivion), but I've noticed that it is -very hard- to find a proper place for this thing on the battlefield. In order to get the most out of your bonus and support your team you have to basically be -ON THE FRONTLINE-. This is difficult and hard to do because of the Scouts' natural low survivability accompanied by the fact that Range Amplifiers and Armor Plates take away from your potential to reduce your Profile low enough to be practical. Honestly, considering that both the Caldari Scout and the Gallente Scout get dual EWAR bonuses (Range/Profile and Precision/Profile, respectively) I think the Amarr Scout could get a major benefit from a dual bonuses of Precision/Range while also completing sort of a 'Scout Triangle' in a way. Thoughts? 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.10 02:22:00 - [2] - Quote Apart from the egotistical and arrogant aura that is frequently put off anytime anyone -NOT- a known scout discusses scouts (seriously, you guys always come off like your opinion is the only one that matters) I threw together a video of one of my main problems. I took a step back from Gallente Logis to run Amarr Scouts now that we have larger squads and the passive scans are more beneficial to the team and put a suit together for what I intended to be Anti-Scout purposes. While I don't get the WP benefits of Active Scanners, I do get the benefit of not being flanked by hostile scouts as it has sort of become a problem as of late with some of our enemies. Turns out, however, the Amarr Scout isn't even good at that job, as this video will show. I had to fall back because I was completely out of ammo and no-one was running nanohives (our Logi got booted from FW after an unfortunate warbarge strike and was, coincidentally, also our squad lead). I didn't see the Minmatar Scout on Scans until I saw him physically with my own two eyes. Confrontation ensued and I won by the skin of my teeth (also because he overheated his weapon). So, if the Gallente Logi with Active Scanners nets WP and is generally better for distance scanning... and the Amarr Scout can't even pick up other scouts with two precision enhancers.. I'm starting to wonder what I spent my SP on. Overall this Scout, by itself, is contradictory in too many ways. - Cloaking kills Scan Range - Scan Range isn't high enough as it is to compliment it's low survivability - Range and Profile Dampeners go in the slots that are used by modules that compliment it's survivability It feels like the Amarr Scout is either trying to be too many things at once or simply trying to be something it's not. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.10 02:24:00 - [3] - Quote Honestly the only fundamental value I've found from this specialization is running with my squad and keeping tabs on anything within scan range - but it is a VERY low WP accrual build that focuses mostly on assists. I generally hate Shotguns and Knives with a passion and refuse to run them and went into the Amarr Scout because I wanted the bonuses and figured it's more tanky-nature (at least by Scout standards) was well suited for my CQC affinity and general playstyle. Think I was very, very wrong though. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.10 04:09:00 - [4] - Quote Sicerly Yaw wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: maybe deadcatz wrote: Amour modules on a scout,theres already a decent amount of armour on it already. Just use a damp and a rep with maybe a kincat and scanner. Easy as pie. The fact that you use a scanner further proves its redundancy. actually using your passive scans to pick up enemies then giving that information to your team by scanning them can be a more viable option then to be a gallogi with perma scan, and it gives you the option to counter some well dampened scouts that may sneak by some scans I do not support the dual precision/profile bonuses due to the fact that the percentage you get for precision is already high 25% reduction is already better then a complex precision mod, range would make it almost OP as anything getting anywhere near it would be in danger if it did receive the range not only would it step on the toes of the cal scout (which it already did by taking its main bonus) it would also need to get nerfed to say 2% or 3% and only gain about 5% extra range per level which would make it almost useless Meh, but then you have to fight with the fact that the scanner might not pick them up and even still, based on the video I provided, if 18db precision isn't enough than any active scanner sure isn't going to be either, unless you're using a Focused on a Gal Logi which wouldn't require the use of passive scans anyway. I don't think a range buff would over-shadow the Cal Scout at all, honestly. The Cal Scout gets profile reduction, which the Amarr Scout does not - so having Precision and Range on a scout that is more tanky and, at least on paper, seemingly designed for more frontline engagements just makes sense. Considering that the Amarr Scout with a 3% bonus to range per level would put it's passive scan range at 35m, and the gains from range amplifiers would mirror that increase. Which, for the record, would require x2 Range Amplifiers -anyway- to match the Cal Scout's base scan range at level 5. For a comparison point, a Cal Scout would have to have a Complex Precision Enhancer and a Basic Precision Enhancer to match the Amarr Scout's base precision, so it's actually easier for a Cal Scout to step on the toes of an Amarr Scout than it is for the other way around. Which, in retrospect, there's a part of me that sort of wishes I had just specced Cal Scout now as it is better for what I'm wanting to do. I suppose I'll get a respec next paycheck and do just that, leaving the Amarr Scout by the wayside. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.10 12:07:00 - [5] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: The Amarr Scout definitely is a victim of having no role whatsoever. The Gallente Scout is a stealth specialist. The Caldari Scout is good at stealth and decent at scanning. The Minmatar Scout is the best for hacking and general CQC fighting. The Amarr Scout was supposed to be the Scout hunter. They were supposed to be able to track down any scout with their large stamina pool, and after their Precision buff they were supposed to be able to track nearly all scouts. As you said, they are a victim of the module layout. A new skill should be added that increases scan range, on top of their current bonuses. Soooo, the Range Amplification skill? Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Post Ossirian Unscarred wrote: Another post Thank you for taking the time to explain all of this. A hell of a lot more useful than "Hurrr, FotM chasers / non-scout / blah blah Scouts rule". I'll give it another go tonight and try to actively hunt other scouts, see how well it plays out, though I think with the range implications and what not it will be somewhat difficult - especially if I have to sacrifice the range amps for profile dampeners to do my job without worrying too much about being seen. The lack of a cloaking device (since it kills my scan range) will also be a consideration but, I think I can get it to work. Might fit a mass driver? My issue with combat against scouts is a lot of times I have trouble hitting them (like in that video). I think the Mass Driver, given that scouts have such low health to begin with, would be an excellent solution to that, if a little loud and probably going to attract a lot of attention. My goal was originally to do just that, a Walking Radar. Honestly, as much as I enjoy the Gallente Logi, it is difficult to maintain scans when dealing with the cooldowns and narrow scan angles on top of trying to keep everyone (including myself) alive. The goal was to stay with the pack, relying on them for my survivability, while providing the scans. The increase in squad sizes (eight and sixteen) contributed to that factor as passive scans were more applicable to the greater majority of the team. We'll see what happens. Thank you, those of you who remained civil and didn't just default to the usual BS rhetoric. Although I do agree that increasing the benefits of Range Amplifiers would be great, honestly. While my original proposal was to give the Amarr Scout a Range bonus, the bonus to range amplifiers would be better without being too over-powered. Cal Scouts are limited by their low slots, which means they'd have to choose between being a mobile radar or having a low profile. That in mind, here's some numbers: x2 Complex Range Amplifiers (current) Cal Scout: 59m scan range Amarr Scout: 39m scan range x2 Complex Range Amplifiers (20% instead of 15%) Cal Scout: 63m scan range Amarr Scout: 42m scan range So it'd be a 5m net gain, which isn't much, but yanno. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.10 13:05:00 - [6] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Thoughts? Every point in your assessment is on point. You nailed it. The only things I'd add are (1) that if you want to duck scans yourself to increase your odds of survival, you'll have to run damps in 2 of your 4 low slots; and (2) assuming you're fit for maximum effect at recon, there aren't many viable options available to you for earning kills or warpoints in a competitive environment. Believe it or not, this reads exactly like something Appia might have posted in the EWAR discussion last December. Assuming she were in a good mood :-) As for what to do, I'm not sure anymore. I suspect we'll need to wait-and-see just how hard these units are hit by 8x and 16x shared passives in PC. I suspect the optimal solution to the AM Scout problem will involve either recasting it as something wholly removed from recon (i.e. biotic scout) or tweaking Falloff to permit a return of Range Extenders. Yanno, honest to god, if we could hack equipment I could see the Amarr Scout as a force to be reconed with for flipping less obvious drop uplink placements. Might even be a really competitive role in PC to have an Amarr Scout running the perimeter of an outpost and just destroying/flipping drop uplinks, what with it's increased precision and range. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.10 13:40:00 - [7] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Thoughts? Every point in your assessment is on point. You nailed it. The only things I'd add are (1) that if you want to duck scans yourself to increase your odds of survival, you'll have to run damps in 2 of your 4 low slots; and (2) assuming you're fit for maximum effect at recon, there aren't many viable options available to you for earning kills or warpoints in a competitive environment. Believe it or not, this reads exactly like something Appia might have posted in the EWAR discussion last December. Assuming she were in a good mood :-) As for what to do, I'm not sure anymore. I suspect we'll need to wait-and-see just how hard these units are hit by 8x and 16x shared passives in PC. I suspect the optimal solution to the AM Scout problem will involve either recasting it as something wholly removed from recon (i.e. biotic scout) or tweaking Falloff to permit a return of Range Extenders. Yanno, honest to god, if we could hack equipment I could see the Amarr Scout as a force to be reconed with for flipping less obvious drop uplink placements. Might even be a really competitive role in PC to have an Amarr Scout running the perimeter of an outpost and just destroying/flipping drop uplinks, what with it's increased precision and range. Love it! Progress! Now we have a ~300HP AM Scout running around behind enemy lines with 2 Precision Enhancers, 2 Damps and 2 Range Extenders. Like a surfacing submarine, our saboteur pops in and out of cloak from time to time to scan his surroundings for hostiles and hostile EQ. If everything's clear, he reactivates cloak proceeds to hack enemy EQ for +X WP per flip; this unit's operational risk/reward are now in better balance. As Hacked EQ consumes bandwidth at 50% face value, the AM Scout's increased supply of bandwidth sets him apart from other Scouts in this capacity. Potential problem: CalScout Role Bleed With HF Charlie, the role of Recon Scout was split between two races. The AM Scout role become high-intensity / low-range recon. The CA Scout role become low-intensity / long-range recon. Falloff mixed everything up, but these designs remain in place. If the AM Scout's bonus were changed to high-intensity / high-range, he would directly overlap CalScout's low-intensity / long-range recon. This is a potential problem. The CalScout's ranged scans fit his weaponry, lore and even APEX design. Honestly, I could see the Amarr Scout as more of a Squad Support role as far as Scouts go. Just dunno how to do it without it bleeding over into the Cal Scout's role. The Cal Scout could just as easily take on the equipment hacker, given it's scan range, whereas the Amarr Scout could be more combative. A sort of fast skirmisher, if anything. S'what I use it for right now, albeit it is pretty difficult to actually -FEEL- like I matter to the squad and the lack of WP accrual from anything I'm doing reflects that. Dunno. Will think about it more while I'm on break. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.10 16:39:00 - [8] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The EQ flipper would be an awesome role, but I imagine it would also be alot of work to implement. Here's what I'm thinking, and I think it'd be doable: Google Doc Instead of a second racial bonus, increase AM Scout bandwidth (credit: Ripley Riley). The AM Scout would become the premier Uplink Runner and would be extremely useful in PC. Fit for combat, Biotic+Armor builds would be as viable as any other combat-oriented Scout. Fit for fun, straight biotic builds would be an absolute blast to run in pubs. Of all the AM Scouts in Dust's history, Lightning xVx and Djinn Marauder were the most infamous and effective. Their playstyles/loadouts were polar opposites; one ran heavy biotics and light tank, the other ran heavy tank and light biotics. Different as they were deadly, I believe that both support this proposal. What do you think? I dunno, it seems so contradictory to the Amarr to run biotics. That's more of a Minmatar sort of deal - quick in and outs, skirmishing, guerilla tactics. Biotics are an interesting touch, don't get me wrong, but it seems so foreign on the slowest scout suit in the line-up. An armor tanking one at that. That and we already technically have a drop uplink role, the Amarr Logi, which I thought about just proposing to switch the Amarr Logi and Amarr Scout bonuses (drop uplinks and scan precision respectively) since the Scout is better suited for drop uplinks and the Logi is more durable, making better use of the scans, but this would devalue the design mechanics of Scouts = EWAR and Logi = Equipment (thank KAGEHOSHI for that). So, all in all, I personally need to think about it some more. Maybe I'll have an epiphany or something but right now, I really dunno. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.08.02 12:16:00 - [9] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I would support precision/range dual bonus. Ah yes, cause that was never a problem on cal scouts. Oh wait, 1.7 disagrees. Yes we have scan circles now, but precision & range are still overpowering. Aeon is presenting his numbers without the semi-intended fitting of 2 complex precision amps, which put it at 23.2db from 15-30m, 17.85 from 6 to 15m, and ~9 db from 0-6. The amarr scout was never intended to have insane passive scan range alongside precision - that HAS been the cause of massive balance issue that we've seen before for a whole year in 1.7-1.8. Yes I'm being a little bit kneejerky, but this is pretty upsetting to the whole balance of scouts. You can fit two precision enhancers on a Cal Scout and get better precision than the Amarr Scout's base precision. You'd have to fit four complex range amplifiers on an Amarr Scout and still not even match the Cal Scout's base range. I'd say that that argument should still be reserved for the Cal Scout rather than the Amarr Scout. The Amarr Scout was never intended to have insane passive scan range alongside precision - arguable - but to even match the Cal Scout on basic capability you'd have to use all four of your low slots to do so. Which means that you'd have absolutely no tank at all, as opposed to simply adding two precision enhancers on the Cal Scout and reaping the benefits of both exceptional range and good/great precision. The sacrifices to make the precision work on the Amarr Scout shouldn't be so extreme. You can get a 44 meter long-range passive scan on the Amarr Scout, maximum, and that's only having absolutely nothing contributing to survivability (can't fit profile dampeners due to range amplifiers eating low slots and shield extenders would be too expensive on the fit and fundamentally worthless with such low base shields). Cal Scout is still better in this case because he already has the excellent range and can actually match the Amarr Scout for precision with slots left over. But this isn't even touching on the issue of passive scans as a whole. The short range means that anything you're going to pick up on those scans is probably either already shooting at you or within your visual range already. Whereas the actual value it has would be in strong precision to pick up scouts, who's low precision means that the Amarr Scout is probably only going to pick them up at medium to short range, which it's range is far too short for given scouts' high mobility that allows them to dip in and go for the kill. The mathematics on it just don't add up. Assuming just base stats the Amarr Scout won't be able to pick up another Scout - even if they're not using profile dampeners (and forget about the Gallente Scout which has profile dampening built in) - until they get within normal scan range.... which is 15m. Considering most scouts have a base sprint speed of 7.5m/s (at least) you're thinking -maybe- two seconds of reaction time, not including your own reaction time and the fact that you'd be well within Shotgunning distance anyway. So, what is the Amarr Scout supposed to do? He has the precision to hunt down other scouts but the scan range is so miniscule that it renders it moot. He can't fit range amplifiers without sacrificing his low slots (survivability) and even still you'd get much better performance out of a Cal Scout anyway. Do you have a suggestion on how to handle up on this? Aeon Amadi for CPM 2 Design A SKIN 2
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.08.02 12:32:00 - [10] - Quote Feedeesex wrote: I have the solution for your problem. Scout Caldari. See above post. Aeon Amadi for CPM 2 Design A SKIN 2

Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.08.02 13:43:00 - [11] - Quote Kierkegaard Soren wrote: 2 kincats 2 codebreakers Precision enhancers Needle Uplinks PLC bolt pistol It runs, it hacks, it scares away tanks and blaps fast-hack LLAVs Tremendous fun. LLAVs, huh... Aeon Amadi for CPM 2 Design A SKIN 2