DUST Search - lets talk about sockets

Alaika Arbosa wrote:

Randomized maps would be one thing if the map design was actually remembered and assigned to the District that it was purported to be.

Randomly generate Ardar 3-1, store it and never waste resources regenerating this map since it is static and unchanging unless the NPC faction holding it decides to do some landscaping or construction project (in which case, CCP just changes the things it is decided need changed)

Randomly generate them all, store them as single static meshes to save on resources.

This might even allow us to include installation deployment by players. Add minor sockets to the static meshes, these minor sockets would be where different installations could be slotted. This is of course assuming that the minor sockets would be small enough that even 6-12 of them would still be less real estate than a single normal small socket .

(Is the amount of real estate each socket represents the problem or is it just the fact that there are X number of variables due to the existence alone of the socket)

Ever since the beginning, I was under the impression that it would be as detailed in the beginning of my post. Map gets randomly generated and stored, whenever that District is occupied, it uses the same map unless CCP decides to change something, owning players decide to change something (for massive CP/ISK of course) or if we ever get real physics and destructible environments (where owning players would still need to expend CP/ISK on repairs).

Why maps get "randomly generated" before every match IDK, TBH, I find that surprising if it is actually true since I very rarely see any variation in a map from match to match.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Ghosts Chance Intara Direct Action Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.07.09 13:38:00 - [1] - Quote Sockets, the name for the moddable map design system that CCP uses to randomly generate maps NEEDS TO GO if you simplify maps into one solid 3d mesh rather than this moddable system you will save a ton of memory wich is what is currently limiting the game. they have already proven they can copy and paste pieces of sockets onto the ground mesh all thats needed is to do that with everything in the map and the game will run alot smother. notice how old school ashlands and line harvest are the least laggy of all maps? its because they only have 0-3 sockets on the entire map and the sockets they do have acess too are low poly. remove all sockets and use 1 static mesh instead of this failed socket system and you will gain a ton of performance in return. Minmatar is Winmatar Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind" I am Chances Ghost

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 25	Posted - 2015.07.09 14:26:00 - [2] - Quote This is true, it was a beautiful fevre dream deliver enough value for the technical cost. . Speaking as an fps player I prefer to learn my maps, and have those maps designed so there is not a single "win" strategy than have to adapt to randomization. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Aidualc LATINOS KILLERS CORP RUST415 406	Posted - 2015.07.09 14:34:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This is true, it was a beautiful fevre dream that doesn't deliver enough value for the technical cost. . Speaking as an fps player I prefer to learn my maps, and have those maps designed so there is not a single "win" strategy than have to adapt to randomization. Goodbye (Lag)Lente Facility... hello ! same Gallente Facility -- Ecce Initio -- Tomate Pote -- *Respectu, Honorem, Value, Unionem*******
Ghosts Chance Intara Direct Action Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.07.09 14:41:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This is true, it was a beautiful fevre dream that doesn't deliver enough value for the technical cost. . Speaking as an fps player I prefer to learn my maps, and have those maps designed so there is not a single "win" strategy than have to adapt to randomization. \o/ yay i helpded Minmatar is Winmatar Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind" I am Chances Ghost
Arkena Wyrnspire Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 24	Posted - 2015.07.09 14:45:00 - [5] - Quote The socket design system has also led to awkward map design in some notable cases. Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu Gallente Guide
NextDark Knight Hellstorm LLC 837	Posted - 2015.07.09 14:54:00 - [6] - Quote I like the random maps.. Maybe you could synchronize maps daily? Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 11	Posted - 2015.07.09 14:55:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This is true, it was a beautiful fevre dream that doesn't deliver enough value for the technical cost. . Speaking as an fps player I prefer to learn my maps, and have those maps designed so there is not a single "win" strategy than have to adapt to randomization. Would it be possible to have a mixture of both philosophies? Have specific set pieces of the map be static but 1 - 3 randomized sockets each map? @Ripley_Riley CPM2 candidate. Ripley.Riley on Skype!
Ghosts Chance Intara Direct Action Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.07.09 15:06:00 - [8] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This is true, it was a beautiful fevre dream that doesn't deliver enough value for the technical cost. . Speaking as an fps player I prefer to learn my maps, and have those maps designed so there is not a single "win" strategy than have to adapt to randomization. Would it be possible to have a mixture of both philosophies? Have specific set pieces of the map be static but 1 - 3 randomized sockets each map? possable but there isnt enough there to justify the performance loss (just think ashlands with no sockets vs line harvest with 3 medium sockets... line harvest suffers for it Minmatar is Winmatar Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind" I am Chances Ghost
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 3	Posted - 2015.07.09 15:45:00 - [9] - Quote Oh no :( I love the randomization of maps. Are you sure this is the problem? Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Ghosts Chance Intara Direct Action Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.07.09 15:49:00 - [10] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: Oh no :( I love the randomization of maps. Are you sure this is the problem? its not THE problem so much as it is contributing to the problem the problem is that the ps3 runs low on RAM playing dust and thats whats causing the massive "lag" problems outside of general connection issues. part 1 is lowering the number of assets stored in memory as far as dropsuits are concerned (power cores) and this could very well be part 2 or reducing the games load on the ps3 giving us a higher quality game as a whole. the random maps weere a nice dream, but as with alot of aspects of dust that dream died a long time ago (theres currently no level design dev so no new maps outside of copy/paste anyways). its time to clean up what we have now that were more aware of the limitations that are being faced :P Minmatar is Winmatar Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind" I am Chances Ghost

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6	Posted - 2015.07.09 16:05:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This is true, it was a beautiful fevre dream that doesn't deliver enough value for the technical cost. . Speaking as an fps player I prefer to learn my maps, and have those maps designed so there is not a single "win" strategy than have to adapt to randomization. I think the Socket system works well with Manus peak, probably due to it being a small map. The different sockets at B and C really change the look and feel of the match, while performance does not seem to be a problem due to there being no large sockets, and the map being otherwise fairly simple. But switching out the small and medium sockets on any of the maps that contain a large socket does not really do a whole lot to change the feel of the map. Just create a static mesh version of the map for each of the 5 large sockets, using the most appropriate small and medium sockets. Maybe the Gallente Research Facility could be paired with some of the lower mesh count Small and Medium sockets to lower the overall mesh count of the map as well. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Mobius Wyvern Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2015.07.09 16:11:00 - [12] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The socket design system has also led to awkward map design in some notable cases. Agreed. I think it would have worked out if we had more power to work with, but not on the PS3. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.07.09 16:29:00 - [13] - Quote Randomized maps would be one thing if the map design was actually remembered and assigned to the District that it was purported to be. Randomly generate Ardar 3-1, store it and never waste resources regenerating this map since it is static and unchanging unless the NPC faction holding it decides to do some landscaping or construction project (in which case, CCP just changes the things it is decided need changed) Randomly generate them all, store them as single static meshes to save on resources. This might even allow us to include installation deployment by players. Add minor sockets to the static meshes, these minor sockets would be where different installations could be slotted. This is of course assuming that the minor sockets would be small enough that even 6-12 of them would still be less real estate than a single normal small socket . (Is the amount of real estate each socket represents the problem or is it just the fact that there are X number of variables due to the existence alone of the socket) Ever since the beginning, I was under the impression that it would be as detailed in the beginning of my post. Map gets randomly generated and stored, whenever that District is occupied, it uses the same map unless CCP decides to change something, owning players decide to change something (for massive CP/ISK of course) or if we ever get real physics and destructible environments (where owning players would still need to expend CP/ISK on repairs). Why maps get "randomly generated" before every match IDK, TBH, I find that surprising if it is actually true since I very rarely see any variation in a map from match to match. I won't dodge another silver bullet Just to save a little face
Ghosts Chance Intara Direct Action Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.07.09 16:44:00 - [14] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Randomized maps would be one thing if the map design was actually remembered and assigned to the District that it was purported to be. Randomly generate Ardar 3-1, store it and never waste resources regenerating this map since it is static and unchanging unless the NPC faction holding it decides to do some landscaping or construction project (in which case, CCP just changes the things it is decided need changed) Randomly generate them all, store them as single static meshes to save on resources. This might even allow us to include installation deployment by players. Add minor sockets to the static meshes, these minor sockets would be where different installations could be slotted. This is of course assuming that the minor sockets would be small enough that even 6-12 of them would still be less real estate than a single normal small socket . (Is the amount of real estate each socket represents the problem or is it just the fact that there are X number of variables due to the existence alone of the socket) Ever since the beginning, I was under the impression that it would be as detailed in the beginning of my post. Map gets randomly generated and stored, whenever that District is occupied, it uses the same map unless CCP decides to change something, owning players decide to change something (for massive CP/ISK of course) or if we ever get real physics and destructible environments (where owning players would still need to expend CP/ISK on repairs). Why maps get "randomly generated" before every match IDK, TBH, I find that surprising if it is actually true since I very rarely see any variation in a map from match to match. PC maps arnt random but still use the socket system, its just predetermined sockets. the problem isnt the randomness the problem is that having so many interconnecting meshes wastes alot more resources than a single mesh would on its own. Minmatar is Winmatar Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind" I am Chances Ghost
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2015.07.09 16:46:00 - [15] - Quote I was a avid defender of the socket system, which I thought was a brilliant idea. However, it only works properly if: 1: We have more sockets and maps available, making the randomisation actually work. Right now we have too few, which causes everything to feel "samey" anyway. 2: We have battles spanning a large area of the map, like Skirmish 1.0, to really notice the difference. Right now the objectives are always in the same place (baring from Aqusition), making the randomisation (mostly) pointless. In a Domination you rush the objective, and only fight in a very small spot. The whole map is different, but not where you actually fighting Now, taken our current situation, I would gladly trade away with the socket system and have fixed maps if it helps with performance.
Grimmiers 868	Posted - 2015.07.09 16:53:00 - [16] - Quote The original intent for the random maps was to cover the many districts in eve, but since we're still trapped in molden heath It would make sense to do what the op suggested. The actual randomness can't be appreciated since things crate placement and such are always in the same spot anyway. In fact the smaller decorative objects should be what's randomized. It's also a shame that there's no fully interior maps made which would work with ambush having no vehicles.
Lady MDK Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 393	Posted - 2015.07.09 17:02:00 - [17] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: Sockets, the name for the moddable map design system that CCP uses to randomly generate maps NEEDS TO GO if you simplify maps into one solid 3d mesh rather than this moddable system you will save a ton of memory wich is what is currently limiting the game. they have already proven they can copy and paste pieces of sockets onto the ground mesh all thats needed is to do that with everything in the map and the game will run alot smother. notice how old school ashlands and line harvest are the least laggy of all maps? its because they only have 0-3 sockets on the entire map and the sockets they do have acess too are low poly. remove all sockets and use 1 static mesh instead of this failed socket system and you will gain a ton of performance in return. If the ps3 cant handle it..... aww hell you know what im going to say dont you? Well? Pc or PS4 (or both)... [mcp] End of line [/mcp] Anyone getting annoyed by reading of the above post should consider the following. I don't care so neither should you :)
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 3	Posted - 2015.07.09 17:12:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This is true, it was a beautiful fevre dream that doesn't deliver enough value for the technical cost. . Speaking as an fps player I prefer to learn my maps, and have those maps designed so there is not a single "win" strategy than have to adapt to randomization. I'm pretty sure you have just stated what a lot of us have been thinking for a long time. I will say though that it had not occurred to me that sockets were also hogging resources in this way. "Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.09 17:25:00 - [19] - Quote In an ideal world I'd much rather have randomised maps. But improving performance is such an important issue I could accept sacrifices. If it gets ported to PC I hope they expand on the randomisation.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.09 17:32:00 - [20] - Quote 60,000+ planets with god knows how many districts.... All made by the same two construction companies! Nah, we kinda need randomization to some degree of the game is going to get really... really stale. The game should have had a full-on random map generator to increase the sense of immersion because, after all, we're not fighting in the same place over and over and over again. Like, that is a major lore violation as it is. And being unfamiliar with an area is just part of warfare O.o; There is a tactical advantage toward a defending home-front being familiar with their homeland and their aggressor being unfamiliar with it. Sun Tzu couldn't even stop ranting about it in The Art of War. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.

Operative 1174 Uuali True Companion Planetary Requisitions 893	Posted - 2015.07.09 17:47:00 - [21] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This is true, it was a beautiful fevre dream that doesn't deliver enough value for the technical cost. . Speaking as an fps player I prefer to learn my maps, and have those maps designed so there is not a single "win" strategy than have to adapt to randomization. \o/ yay i helpded Yay! http://img02.deviantart.net/e920/i/2013/067/c/2/derpy_can_fix_things_wp_by_martybpix-d5xdyku.png MY CPM2 PLATFORM
Dreis ShadowWeaver Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 5	Posted - 2015.07.09 17:50:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This is true, it was a beautiful fevre dream that doesn't deliver enough value for the technical cost. . Speaking as an fps player I prefer to learn my maps, and have those maps designed so there is not a single "win" strategy than have to adapt to randomization. So, is it actually possible to get rid of the randomisation of sockets? Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel My Minja Blog Recruitment messages received: 12
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.09 17:52:00 - [23] - Quote Exciting!!! Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Mahal Daj Mahal Tactical Enterprises 167	Posted - 2015.07.09 18:04:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This is true, it was a beautiful fevre dream that doesn't deliver enough value for the technical cost. . Speaking as an fps player I prefer to learn my maps, and have those maps designed so there is not a single "win" strategy than have to adapt to randomization. If that's the case, would it be possible to bring back ALL the maps in this new 'static' configuration? At this point in the game, it seems as though the randomness is more related to snipers than to CQC infantry... Would it be possible to randomly terraform around fixed installations? This could add variety when moving between the sockets, which mostly 'feel the same' once you're 'inside them' -daj See my Post on Crashes: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2413361#post2413361
RedBleach LeSanglant PIanet Express Smart Deploy 847	Posted - 2015.07.09 19:26:00 - [25] - Quote IF this would bring back some of the older maps - the ones with 5 or more points and huge landscapes where one could safely call vehicles (do you remember the 'bases' that used to exist with landing platforms?) and some of the other classics I would love this! OK, I would love the increase in memory regardless... but I miss the old maps.... The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Indianna Pwns TERRA R1SING New Eden's Heros 199	Posted - 2015.07.09 19:42:00 - [26] - Quote What the maps are random? I never even noticed.
NIETZCHES OVERMAN Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 131	Posted - 2015.07.09 19:49:00 - [27] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: This is true, it was a beautiful fevre dream that doesn't deliver enough value for the technical cost. . Speaking as an fps player I prefer to learn my maps, and have those maps designed so there is not a single "win" strategy than have to adapt to randomization. Would it be possible to have a mixture of both philosophies? Have specific set pieces of the map be static but 1 - 3 randomized sockets each map? possable but there isnt enough there to justify the performance loss (just think ashlands with no sockets vs line harvest with 3 medium sockets... line harvest suffers for it 95% of these scrubs have no clue because they never learned the names, as a counterpoint and question I would look at Fracture Road, lots of sockets, yet no lag...... Alt of INFINITE DIVERSITY IDIC
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 865	Posted - 2015.07.09 20:16:00 - [28] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: This is true, it was a beautiful fevre dream that doesn't deliver enough value for the technical cost. . Speaking as an fps player I prefer to learn my maps, and have those maps designed so there is not a single "win" strategy than have to adapt to randomization. The reality of dust is that you learn the sockets instead of the maps. Certain sockets have strategies that pretty much give the socket and everything around it to you if you can execute (mostly involving cheap camp on a roof tactics, oh boy!). Certain maps have other sockets overlooking sockets that spoil these tactics for them, but by and large each socket has some strategy associated with it, and especially in domination, the map is largely irrelevant compared to the socket around the letter.
LOL KILLZ LulKlz 240	Posted - 2015.07.09 20:26:00 - [29] - Quote will this fix the problem of falling through the world into the ever expanding sky when you spawn in some places? That would be lovely CEO of LulKlz/ chat channel LulKlz, code 0000 <--- numbers
Moochie Cricket Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 1	Posted - 2015.07.09 20:29:00 - [30] - Quote I wonder if it would be possible to have a map with only small and medium sockets? Caldari Tribute Montage



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