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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
9
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Posted - 2015.05.26 20:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Objective:
To stimulate low-slot diversity and shake up the present "stack brick" meta.
Key Points:
* Seeks to tune brick through small changes to movement speed penalties.
* Affects heavy frames less so than non-heavy frames; in some cases, renders them faster.
* Affects light frames more so than other frames.
> Google Doc <
Thoughts?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
1
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Posted - 2015.05.26 21:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
I really like the logic here, and where it could lead. Lots of minor adjustments across the board, and even provide a bit of relief for the HEAVY in the process, which could gain a little speed and perhaps much needed base jump height. Brilliant.
My only concern:
Shields.
I was beginning to like the idea that shields would also slow down suits a little bit, for the sake of making it impossible to brick tank your highs while kincat-ing the lows for the ideal Dual Tank. (Dual tanking in Dust's meta is not armor and shield, but rather, speed and brick, keep that in mind)
For those irked by the logic, Break'n explained it best, paraphrasing:
It's not about the weight they add, but rather the atmosphere they have to displace when you try to move. Things in space do not have to worry about displacing any air, so shields in EVE don't cause movement penalties.
I would like to see shields offer similar penalties as Ferroscales do in your model. What do you think, Adipem?
Know what cannot be known.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.26 22:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:What do you think, Adipem?
I honestly don't think that we have grounds for nerfing Shields. High-slot diversity has already been achieved. If shields were overpowered, mercs wouldn't be running anything else in their highs, and daily usage rates would demonstrate a lack of diversity. A lack of diversity is precisely what we see with Low-Slot Modules ... 9 of the Top 10 have been armor-related each and every day for the past 6 months. The only other low-slot module which makes the Top 10 is the KinCat, which coincidentally offsets brick movement penalty.
PS: By "brick" I mean armor and armor-related modules; apologies if my usage is incorrect.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
1
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Posted - 2015.05.26 22:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
I am not 100% sold on the idea that highslot diversity has been achieved.
For some roles, myofibs are a fun alternative to shields, but everyone seems to default to a rack of shield extenders when they get serious. This is even more true for most medium frames. The only exception I can think of is damage mods for certain fits like snipers and swarm launchers.
I also think adding a speed penalty to shields is key to reigning in medium frames.
This is just my opinion and from my point of view, but I feel like right now there are two ways you can tank in Dust. I am not referring to shields and armor, but rather "brick" and speed.
The one suit that does both at the same time the best is the minmatar assault, this is no surprise. I think this is at the heart of the issue.
Know what cannot be known.
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
1
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Posted - 2015.05.26 22:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sorry for the double post:
I realize your goal here is to attack low slot monotony, and that is a noble thing. Perhaps my suggestion is more geared towards hit detection issues and out of place, I apologize for that. I may be off topic..
Know what cannot be known.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.26 22:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:
The one suit that does both at the same time the best is the minmatar assault, this is no surprise. I think this is at the heart of the issue.
I'm of the opinion that the MN Assault presently represents a special case. It is uniquely suited for reaching very high speeds while also stacking significant HP. If Rattati buys in to an inverse Speed/HP model (which I believe he has), then this special case will likely be fixed when MN Assault speed is reduced.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
1
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Posted - 2015.05.26 22:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
[...]
If Rattati buys in to an inverse Speed/HP model (which I believe he has), then this special case will likely be fixed when MN Assault speed is reduced.
If this actually happens, we both get exactly what we each suggested, as shields will also bring down speed a bit, which I think is necessary at this point.
Quote:
Edit: I believe that Rattati intends to swap Assault and Logi base speeds.
This may alleviate some of the problems in the meanwhile, but I do hope for the Inverse Speed/HP model in the long run. One can only hope.
Know what cannot be known.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.26 22:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
Edit: I believe that Rattati intends to swap Assault and Logi base speeds.
This may alleviate some of the problems in the meanwhile, but I do hope for the Inverse Speed/HP model in the long run. One can only hope.
Swapping Assault and Logi base movement speeds gets us very close to that inverted model. The only other thing to do is add one slot to Commandos ...
Current Model
Max HP: Sentinel > Assault > Commando > Logi > Scout
Speed: Sentinel < Commando < Logi < Assault < Scout
Inverted Model
Max HP: Sentinel > Commando > Assault > Logi > Scout
Speed: Sentinel < Commando < Assault < Logi < Scout
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
1
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Posted - 2015.05.26 22:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
I see what you mean, now, and that we're referring to different things.
The suits listed and ordered from tankiest to thinnest would also be slowest to fastest. It's true that after they swap logis and assaults we will be really close to this. This is good design, but I was thinking of something else.
I was referring to the inverse Speed/HP model where every single point of health(base and module) has an effect on your movement speed, as Rattati described many months ago. This would further give players the choice to run as tanky or fast as they choose to.
Perhaps it's just not low hanging fruit, but I feel like it's the right way.
Know what cannot be known.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.26 23:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:I see what you mean, now, and that we're referring to different things.
The suits listed and ordered from tankiest to thinnest would also be slowest to fastest. It's true that after they swap logis and assaults we will be really close to this. This is good design, but I was thinking of something else.
I was referring to the inverse Speed/HP model where every single point of health(base and module) has an effect on your movement speed, as Rattati described many months ago. This would further give players the choice to run as tanky or fast as they choose to.
Perhaps it's just not low hanging fruit, but I feel like it's the right way.
I see no reason why we couldn't do one before the other if it brings about better balance in the short-run. In fact, Rattati's complex tradeoff model would perhaps be easier implemented if it were preceded by these simpler changes.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
1
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Posted - 2015.05.26 23:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Absolutely agree.
Know what cannot be known.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.26 23:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Alternative Idea!
Instead of increasing speed penalty, add a stamina penalty to plates. Make all heavy frames immune to the penalty, or increase heavy frame stamina pools to offset the change.
* Makes sense; it is more difficult to run long distances when heavily burdened
* Adds greater drawbacks to stacking straight plates (promotes low-slot diversity)
* Increases demand for CardRegs (promotes low-slot diversity)
Thoughts?
Spitballing ...
* Reactive -10% stamina pool per plate (all tiers)
* Ferro -10% stamina pool per plate (all tiers)
* Vanilla -15% stamina pool per plate (all tiers)
* Heavies, Sentinels, Commandos immune to stamina penalties
* Movement speed penalties remain as is
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
19
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Posted - 2015.05.26 23:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
For the Spitballing not sure I agree with bartering one Amarrian racial attribute [high stamina pool] for another [high armour HP]. Feels like a 'give n take' with Amarr dropsuits being punished for doing what they are meant to do.
Not only under the spitballing ideal are they the slowest dropsuits in the game but also cannot run very far.......they sound like SoxFour.
"Crush all who complain!"
- Arkena Wyrnspire
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.27 00:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:For the Spitballing not sure I agree with bartering one Amarrian racial attribute [high stamina pool] for another [high armour HP]. Feels like a 'give n take' with Amarr dropsuits being punished for doing what they are meant to do.
Not only under the spitballing ideal are they the slowest dropsuits in the game but also cannot run very far.......they sound like SoxFour.
Credit to Ares 514:
What if the stamina penalty affected stamina regen instead of stamina pool?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
23
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Posted - 2015.05.27 09:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Kaeru Nayiri wrote:
The one suit that does both at the same time the best is the minmatar assault, this is no surprise. I think this is at the heart of the issue.
I'm of the opinion that the MN Assault presently represents a special case. It is uniquely suited for reaching very high speeds while also stacking significant HP. If Rattati buys in to an inverse Speed/HP model (which I believe he has), then this special case will likely be fixed when MN Assault speed is reduced. Edit: I believe that Rattati intends to swap Assault and Logi base speeds.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2792926#post2792926
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Scheneighnay McBob
Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary
6
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Posted - 2015.05.27 14:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
I like this idea.
Having worn body armor quite a bit myself, I can confirm it barely slows you down (if at all), but wears you out more than anything.
Aloha snackbar
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Georgia Xavier
Y.A.M.A.H
No Context
566
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Posted - 2015.05.27 15:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
-10% stamina pool? Damn, already sounds brutal. My amarr assault will be of lower speed after the speed/health ratio fix but also lower stamina. I don't mind limitations but damn is that brutal in my opinion
Click me
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Scheneighnay McBob
Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary
6
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Posted - 2015.05.27 16:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
Georgia Xavier wrote:-10% stamina pool? Damn, already sounds brutal. My amarr assault will be of lower speed after the speed/health ratio fix but also lower stamina. I don't mind limitations but damn is that brutal in my opinion
Amarr have the highest stamina. If anything, you'll be hit the least.
Aloha snackbar
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PLAYSTTION
Corrosive Synergy
No Context
1
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Posted - 2015.05.28 01:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
So My gal assault will have a 40% stamina nerf? 2x comp and 1x reactive? I use 2x reps with that. This is how I've been running it since gal mediums came out and son't feel like dropping 200HPor 20+HP/s reps to be able to run. You are basically unbuffing it.
Gassault Galogi Galsent Galmando Galscout
Open Beta Vet - 44 mil sp
Director of Corrosive Synergy
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
Apologies, gents! It goes without saying that this idea is on hold until Rattati's Speed / HP model is hammered out. o7
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Georgia Xavier
Y.A.M.A.H
No Context
568
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Georgia Xavier wrote:-10% stamina pool? Damn, already sounds brutal. My amarr assault will be of lower speed after the speed/health ratio fix but also lower stamina. I don't mind limitations but damn is that brutal in my opinion Amarr have the highest stamina. If anything, you'll be hit the least.
I suppose you're right.
Click me
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
19
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
Georgia Xavier wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Georgia Xavier wrote:-10% stamina pool? Damn, already sounds brutal. My amarr assault will be of lower speed after the speed/health ratio fix but also lower stamina. I don't mind limitations but damn is that brutal in my opinion Amarr have the highest stamina. If anything, you'll be hit the least. I suppose you're right.
Stamina Pool or Stamina Regen?
"Crush all who complain!"
- Arkena Wyrnspire
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
10
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
PLAYSTTION wrote:So My gal assault will have a 40% stamina nerf? 2x comp and 1x reactive? I use 2x reps with that. This is how I've been running it since gal mediums came out and son't feel like dropping 200HPor 20+HP/s reps to be able to run. You are basically unbuffing it.
Before the Speed/HP discussions, of course, was thinking an Assault user might drop one plate in exchange for one CardReg to fully overcome any stamina penalty.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
19
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:PLAYSTTION wrote:So My gal assault will have a 40% stamina nerf? 2x comp and 1x reactive? I use 2x reps with that. This is how I've been running it since gal mediums came out and son't feel like dropping 200HPor 20+HP/s reps to be able to run. You are basically unbuffing it. Before the Speed/HP discussions, of course, was thinking an Assault user might drop one plate in exchange for one CardReg to fully overcome any stamina penalty.
From a personal stand point Adipem (and this is just feed back) I still won't drop a ferro for a cardio.
"Crush all who complain!"
- Arkena Wyrnspire
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Georgia Xavier
Y.A.M.A.H
No Context
568
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:PLAYSTTION wrote:So My gal assault will have a 40% stamina nerf? 2x comp and 1x reactive? I use 2x reps with that. This is how I've been running it since gal mediums came out and son't feel like dropping 200HPor 20+HP/s reps to be able to run. You are basically unbuffing it. Before the Speed/HP discussions, of course, was thinking an Assault user might drop one plate in exchange for one CardReg to fully overcome any stamina penalty. From a personal stand point Adipem (and this is just feed back) I still won't drop a ferro for a cardio.
sometimes I like to fill my assualt AK.0 with only card regs and run around the map for eternity,assuming i dont die
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
19
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Posted - 2015.05.28 02:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
Georgia Xavier wrote:True Adamance wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:PLAYSTTION wrote:So My gal assault will have a 40% stamina nerf? 2x comp and 1x reactive? I use 2x reps with that. This is how I've been running it since gal mediums came out and son't feel like dropping 200HPor 20+HP/s reps to be able to run. You are basically unbuffing it. Before the Speed/HP discussions, of course, was thinking an Assault user might drop one plate in exchange for one CardReg to fully overcome any stamina penalty. From a personal stand point Adipem (and this is just feed back) I still won't drop a ferro for a cardio. sometimes I like to fill my assualt AK.0 with only card regs and run around the map for eternity,assuming i dont die
Aero did that when AM Scouts had bonuses to them.
"Crush all who complain!"
- Arkena Wyrnspire
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Scheneighnay McBob
Tribal Liberation Force Paramilitary
7
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Posted - 2015.05.28 14:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
PLAYSTTION wrote:So My gal assault will have a 40% stamina nerf? 2x comp and 1x reactive? I use 2x reps with that. This is how I've been running it since gal mediums came out and son't feel like dropping 200HPor 20+HP/s reps to be able to run. You are basically unbuffing it.
Gallente are supposed to be your light armor users.
Also, you're getting a stamina nerf either way. Rattati confirmed it. Your stamina is being traded for sprint speed, as is supposed to be the case for gallente.
Aloha snackbar
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