DUST Search - 'Tankacide' for Dropsuits

All Channels

Feedback/Requests

'Tankacide' for Dropsuits

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3782	Posted - 2015.04.15 10:30:00 - [1] - Quote So Tanks recently got a change so that the difference between a Standard, Advanced, and Prototype Tank was the amount of CPU/PG between the three and that's it. This means that you can fit a Standard Tank the same way you can fit a Prototype tank, just that you will have to use weaker modules (you have 5 lows regardless of Madrugar, so maybe you have basic instead of advanced modules but you still have the same fit). This seems like a good idea for dropsuits. Reason #1: Certain dropsuits have terrible, terrible scaling. Let's take a look at the Logistics suits: - Basic: Amarr: 2H 2L 2 E, Sidearm Caldari: 2H 1L 2E Gallente: 1H 2L 3E Minmatar: 2H 2L 3E - Advanced: Amarr: 3H 3L 3 E, Sidearm Caldari: 3H 2L 3E Gallente: 2H 3L 3E Minmatar: 3H 3L 3E - Prototype: Amarr: 3H 4L 3 E, Sidearm Caldari: 5H 4L 3E Gallente: 3H 5L 4E Minmatar: 4H 4L 4E Looking at Prototype, it seems balanced. Minmatar have a 4/4 set up, owing to their dual tank nature, and 4 Equipment (12 total). Gallente have a 3/5 set up, supporting their Armor focus, and 4 Equipment (12 total). Caldari have a 5/4 set up, supporting their Shield set up, and 3 Equipment (12 total). Amarr have a 3/4 set up with only 3 Equipment but have a Sidearm (11 total). It looks fairly fair. Caldari have the highest defensive slots but with only 3 Equipment. Amarr give up one defensive slot and one equipment to get a Sidearm (in truth, they should probably be 3/5 as well). But look at it from the basic level. Basic: Minmatar has 2/2/3, which is great. Amarr has 2/2/2 but has a sidearm, equaling the Minmatar. Gallente has 1/2/3, which means less slots than the Minmatar. Caldari take up the rear massively with 1/2/2. Caldari simply lost out. Advanced: Amarr is the clear standout at 3/3/3 and a sidearm. Next we have Minmatar with 3/3/3. Gallente and Caldari are equal with 2/3 and 3/2 layouts. Prototype: This is probably where it was meant to be balanced. The idea of "Caldari will have more slots than anyone else" doesn't even happen until Prototype level, which is 2 million SP deep and using the most expensive suits in the game. The lower level balances are out of synch. If the layouts of the Standard, Advanced, and Prototype suits were the same the trading done would 'work' at each level. Reason #2: It gives a lot of power to the Basic and Advanced suits. 'Protostomping' has been an issue in the community for at least 18 months. A Prototype suit will have at least twice the HP of a basic suit and will do far, far more damage. If the Basic suits received the same lay out as the Prototype suits and potentially even an increase in CPU/PG, the power gap between the suits would fall. Prototype would still be better given that they could fit all those modules to be Advanced and Prototype but it wouldn't be as much of a chasm as it is now. If the basic Caldari Logistics could use all those slots for basic modules, they could gain 100 shields, 71 Armor using Ferroscale, and 5.1 Armor repair using 2 Repairers. This does nothing to hurt the Prototype user; they will still have superior equipment and superior HP but only 50-100% more rather than 200% more. Reason #3: It makes it easier to transition from Basic to Advanced to Prototype. Rather than having to figure out what to do with your extra 2 slots and CPU/PG, every level would only give additional CPU/PG. This means that the hypothetical new player could figure out a fit that they like at the basic level and that suit will still work at the Advanced level, only with better modules. Reason #4: It opens up more options. The notion behind the Scanning changes was that there would be a reason to use Profile Dampeners even if you weren't a Scout. Paraphrasing Rattati: "An Amarr Assault could make it so they would only be seen within the medium range rather than the long range with Dampeners and the same Assault would be able to pick up non-Dampened Scouts in the close range with a Precision Enhancer." This has potential to create a metagame; there are a lot of Scouts so I need this. The problem, however, is that there is no way in hell a basic Amarr Assault is going to use all of their High Slots for a Precision Enhancer or a third of their Low Slots for a Profile Dampener. This ebb and flow, counter-play is simply not going to happen at the basic suit level because the rewards are not high enough. "This make it less worthwhile to go Prototype." Take a look at the games where you see Tanks. Are they all Basic? I see quite a few Basic, Advanced, and Prototype Tanks out there. It seems like those players still see a use for going above Basic to fit superior modules. I don't see why a Dropsuit that is 1/15th the base cost of a tank would be any different. "This makes the APEX suits nearly worthless." This... is absolutely true. APEX suits were meant to be the "Prototype suit with basic modules" that I am proposing be made now. There are a few ways to go about rectifying this. 1. Make the APEX suits adjustable. Give them the proper CPU/PG of a Basic Suit but the blueprints cost zero CPU/PG. They still work for free suits and still work as a newbie aid. 2. Reduce the price of the APEX suits bought via Aurum. "They are less important so we are reducing the price." Give a partial refund, perhaps? 3. Increase the power of the APEX modules. APEX suits are already miles ahead of Basic suits so buffing them in response to the increase of power to the Basic suits doesn't change anything. The APEX thing is entirely a valid point. However, you don't choose to keep something broken because the fix results in a different, less sticky problem. Thoughts, opinions, suggestions? "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3782	Posted - 2015.04.15 10:32:00 - [2] - Quote Sorry for the wall. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood Rise Of Legion. 323	Posted - 2015.04.15 12:16:00 - [3] - Quote I agree, for many reasons. 1st: as IWS said the game has "too many variables." (which I believe has no effect on game because not all variables would be used in game), this would cut varibles involving suits considerably. (even though it isn't needed after deployment). Still, it would relieve a little stress on the cell, even if it's just a little bit. 2nd: INCREASES TTK! YESSIR! finally! I wouldn't see a proto suit and get super scared. 3rd: i can use up my resources, and get more eHP per tier at a low cost. I can also build complex fits... Like actually have a scanning assault. 4th: it could make cpu/pg be reworked for some suits and/or modules. The ADS tourney! Join today!
Text Grant PIanet Express Smart Deploy 412	Posted - 2015.04.15 12:26:00 - [4] - Quote The plan for APEX suits last I heard is to make them adjustable, with the exact CPU/PG it takes to operate with 0 skills. I'm 100% on board with tiericide.
ANAHEIM Darko Corrosive Synergy Rise Of Legion. 225	Posted - 2015.04.15 12:44:00 - [5] - Quote I'm an Apex junkie, so if you're telling me that you can switch out modules for others, with a PG/CPU limitation, I could go with that. Else add a range of Apex module BPOs - all standard tier, that are interchangeable with the Apex suits. CalAss Grunt. Former Eve Pilot. --Cellar Door
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6241	Posted - 2015.04.15 12:44:00 - [6] - Quote Read it. Support it. "Liked" it. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
DJINN Jecture MANUFACTURERS OF DEATH 330	Posted - 2015.04.15 13:48:00 - [7] - Quote The Logi suits are all well known to be the best example of bad scaling, as well as not having anything other than a random slot layout progression. What are you asking for, fixing slot layouts? *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H 292	Posted - 2015.04.15 14:05:00 - [8] - Quote At pro, the amarr sacrifices a module slot,an equipment slot and has below average cpu and pg. This seems like a bit much loss compared to a single gain (sidearm). Also the cal logistics at pro has 9 total slots but can't utilise all of them properly if carrying pro equipment and pro weapons. Gallente and min logistics are fine. What I can't understand though is that logi are one of the slowest suits in the game. They are supposed to be fast for quick support. They need to be be to dive into battle and support allies under fire then escape with little time Dust 514: Unlimited Scrub Works
Megaman Trigger Ready to Play 268	Posted - 2015.04.15 14:33:00 - [9] - Quote Would this be rolled out to all Drop Suits or just the Logi suits? Either way, I support it. Purifier. First Class.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3788	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:01:00 - [10] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: The Logi suits are all well known to be the best example of bad scaling, as well as not having anything other than a random slot layout progression. What are you asking for, fixing slot layouts? What I am asking for is Dropsuits to be treated the same way tanks are; the only difference between Basic, Advanced, and Prototype is CPU/PG. It is tieracide, essentially. I just used Logistics as a way to show that bad scaling can be fixed by just giving all suits of the same type the same slot layout regardless of quality. To avoid ambiguity: I mean for all suits to have the same slot layout as their Prototype versions and merely only have differing CPU/PG at each level. That is, the Amarr* Assault** have the same layout at Basic and Advanced as it does at Prototype. : Exchange Amarr for Caldari, Gallente, or Minmatar as needed. : Exchange Assault for Commando, Logistics, Scout, or Sentinel as needed Georgia Xavier wrote:* At pro, the amarr sacrifices a module slot,an equipment slot and has below average cpu and pg. This seems like a bit much loss compared to a single gain (sidearm). Also the cal logistics at pro has 9 total slots but can't utilise all of them properly if carrying pro equipment and pro weapons. Gallente and min logistics are fine. What I can't understand though is that logi are one of the slowest suits in the game. They are supposed to be fast for quick support. They need to be be to dive into battle and support allies under fire then escape with little time That is a different issue than what I intended to address in this post. The balance between the different race's suits is certainly something to look into but it is generally best to keep to a single Feature/Idea per thread to keep it easier to track and follow. Megaman Trigger wrote: Would this be rolled out to all Drop Suits or just the Logi suits? Either way, I support it. All dropsuits. Thanks for the posts everyone. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"

Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H 292	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:07:00 - [11] - Quote My bad for diverting the topic. Anyways what you meant was keeping the same slot layout through the suit progression right? Difference is the cpu and pg increases Eg: amarr assault Std: 3H/5L Adv: 3H/5L Pro: 3H/5L Or am I wrong? Dust 514: Unlimited Scrub Works
Racro 01 Arifistan Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 529	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:09:00 - [12] - Quote bump. love this idea. *Elite Gallenten Soldier*
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3789	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:23:00 - [13] - Quote Georgia Xavier wrote: My bad for diverting the topic. Anyways what you meant was keeping the same slot layout through the suit progression right? Difference is the cpu and pg increases Eg: amarr assault Std: 3H/5L Adv: 3H/5L Pro: 3H/5L Or am I wrong? Correct. Obviously applied to every suit. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Lightning35 Delta514 48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE 261	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:24:00 - [14] - Quote -1. 48th Special Operations Force. Twitter- @48SOF
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3789	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:31:00 - [15] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: -1. I would love to know what concerns you have. Perhaps you see some flaw that I have missed? Thanks. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
korrah silain True Illuminate 21	Posted - 2015.04.15 19:11:00 - [16] - Quote Yes please, would be a good change for all the reasons you stated.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3809	Posted - 2015.04.18 12:29:00 - [17] - Quote Thanks for the post. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1483	Posted - 2015.04.18 12:49:00 - [18] - Quote I support this idea. The principle works, generally, for HAVs and I see absolutely no reason to not apply that principle to dropsuits. As you've said it allows far greater flexibility of fits at the lower levels and the tiers can be balanced through CPU/PG. +1, would like again. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4350	Posted - 2015.04.18 15:27:00 - [19] - Quote Text Grant wrote: The plan for APEX suits last I heard is to make them adjustable, with the exact CPU/PG it takes to operate with 0 skills. I'm 100% on board with tiericide. Link? CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3812	Posted - 2015.04.18 16:17:00 - [20] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Text Grant wrote: The plan for APEX suits last I heard is to make them adjustable, with the exact CPU/PG it takes to operate with 0 skills. I'm 100% on board with tiericide. Link? "Like, why would you know? I know you are CPM but Rattati is always going on and on and on about how 'Cross is such a weenie and a loser and smells bad.' Yeah, he mentioned it at last night's poker game. Oh, you don't know about the poker games? Dennie offered to give you a call but Rattati gave him a glare that made him sit back down." (The above is meant to be a playful joke at the idea that a CPM wouldn't know about a certain proposal and is in no way meant to be an attack on anyone mentioned or not mentioned. Whether or not Rattati has a secret poker game, I certainly would not be invited given my neckbeardness and tendency to belch.) A quick digression: I don't think the APEX thing would work. Giving them exact CPU/PG to use the modules with zero skills would mean that people could take out inefficient modules to get a flat out better BPO suit than Quafe, Raven, Sever, or Valor with Core Skills maxed. Back on topic: What do you think of the tieracide/'tankacide' idea Cross? "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"

Text Grant PIanet Express Smart Deploy 420	Posted - 2015.04.18 17:15:00 - [21] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Text Grant wrote: The plan for APEX suits last I heard is to make them adjustable, with the exact CPU/PG it takes to operate with 0 skills. I'm 100% on board with tiericide. Link? Check rattatis big board of things. It's annoying to read, I know. Do you still play? I haven't seen you since conspiritus
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4355	Posted - 2015.04.18 19:50:00 - [22] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Text Grant wrote: The plan for APEX suits last I heard is to make them adjustable, with the exact CPU/PG it takes to operate with 0 skills. I'm 100% on board with tiericide. Link? "Like, why would you know? I know you are CPM but Rattati is always going on and on and on about how 'Cross is such a weenie and a loser and smells bad.' Yeah, he mentioned it at last night's poker game. Oh, you don't know about the poker games? Dennie offered to give you a call but Rattati gave him a glare that made him sit back down." (The above is meant to be a playful joke at the idea that a CPM wouldn't know about a certain proposal and is in no way meant to be an attack on anyone mentioned or not mentioned. Whether or not Rattati has a secret poker game, I certainly would not be invited given my neckbeardness and tendency to belch.) A quick digression: I don't think the APEX thing would work. Giving them exact CPU/PG to use the modules with zero skills would mean that people could take out inefficient modules to get a flat out better BPO suit than Quafe, Raven, Sever, or Valor with Core Skills maxed. Back on topic: What do you think of the tieracide/'tankacide' idea Cross? well played sir Who knows, maybe I'm being an evil lazy space fat cat and demanding others do the work of linking for me Whatever the case in the information war it is time for me to stop dragging this thread off topic and respond to your question about the OP. I've run some numbers today and my TL;DR on the subject is as follows. - Support the proposal, and think it would be healthy for the game. (because a ~35% spread seems more reasonable than a ~65% spread) - Implementing the proposal should come hand in hand with a price adjustment to ADV and PRO suits as while they would still offer superior function and value the margin of said value would be moderately diminished (by the increased function of the STD suits) so the gap in ISK cost should **** accordingly. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4355	Posted - 2015.04.18 19:52:00 - [23] - Quote Text Grant wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Text Grant wrote: The plan for APEX suits last I heard is to make them adjustable, with the exact CPU/PG it takes to operate with 0 skills. I'm 100% on board with tiericide. Link? Check rattatis big board of things. It's annoying to read, I know. Do you still play? I haven't seen you since conspiritus Ah the board, yeah I must admit I don't read the board often Yes I still play every week and nearly every day. Barring Fan Fest, I didn't play while I was out of the country EDIT: For those keeping score at home the proposal Text was referring to is as follows Big Board of Things wrote: Unlock APEX suits so that they have the exact necessary fitting space with zero skills to use, and then players can arrange within that boundary. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 3019	Posted - 2015.04.18 19:56:00 - [24] - Quote We have to make sure we adjust CPU/PG to accommodate the new slots. If new players have to leave module slots empty because they don't have the CPU/PG to fill them then we are right back where we are now. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4356	Posted - 2015.04.18 19:59:00 - [25] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: We have to make sure we adjust CPU/PG to accommodate the new slots. If new players have to leave module slots empty because they don't have the CPU/PG to fill them then we are right back where we are now. The rough drafts I've done so far don't show a real need to increase the CPU/PG. It's only a first pass so I expect there to be outliers in that, but any adjustments made will likely be very minor. The baseline I'd stamp it to would be running a full set of mods of the same level as the suit. Which we should be pretty close to/require only minor adjustments to reach. But yes you are correct CPU/PG has to be accounted for at the same time o7 CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood Rise Of Legion. 340	Posted - 2015.04.18 21:13:00 - [26] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: We have to make sure we adjust CPU/PG to accommodate the new slots. If new players have to leave module slots empty because they don't have the CPU/PG to fill them then we are right back where we are now. A good example would be a cal assault. At basic, one has plenty of freedom on fitting space But at pro, it is squeeze fitting. I honestly don't think it's the suit tbh, i think it's the costs of pro highslot modules. But that's just my opinion, just a thought The ADS tourney! Join today!
NINEinch WEAPON WarRavens 81	Posted - 2015.04.18 21:30:00 - [27] - Quote With regards to the fitting... Why can we not have skills added to the skill tree.. Example; shield module proficiency.. 2% reduction to cpu per level. or something along those lines... Would help with squeezing the last few modules on. aswell as being more of an sp sink. "winning" an inch at a time
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1485	Posted - 2015.04.18 21:32:00 - [28] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: - Implementing the proposal should come hand in hand with a price adjustment to ADV and PRO suits as while they would still offer superior function and value the margin of said value would be moderately diminished (by the increased function of the STD suits) so the gap in ISK cost should shift accordingly. Sooo...do you support modifying vehicle costs because of the same principle? While HAVs currently have a gentler progression than dropsuits, they still cost an enormous amount between tiers. PRO HAVs are what, 800k hulls? ADV are what, 300k? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4358	Posted - 2015.04.18 21:45:00 - [29] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Cross Atu wrote: - Implementing the proposal should come hand in hand with a price adjustment to ADV and PRO suits as while they would still offer superior function and value the margin of said value would be moderately diminished (by the increased function of the STD suits) so the gap in ISK cost should shift accordingly. Sooo...do you support modifying vehicle costs because of the same principle? While HAVs currently have a gentler progression than dropsuits, they still cost an enormous amount between tiers. PRO HAVs are what, 800k hulls? ADV are what, 300k? I'd have to look a lot more deeply at the current state of module potency/balance before I could render an opinion on that. While conceptually it is easy to say that cost and power progression between both frames and hulls should mirror (and at the conceptual level it tracks) that doesn't mean that mods are 1:1 even within their respective contexts (infantry or vehicle) much less than such balance can be directly cross-applied. Then there are other questions such as; What % of effective value is a mod for a HAV vs a dropsuit. What % of total fit costs are mods vs Hull/Frame for each line. Is the alteration of STD frames to mimic Pro slots equivalent to the current power progression of HAVs (the method used can be the same without the impact being of the same magnitude). But I'd certainly entertain that case being made if someone cares to really delve into the mathematics and details of the subject in depth. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Chimichanga66605 Vader's Taco Shack 374	Posted - 2015.04.18 22:27:00 - [30] - Quote Seems legit. I have zero problem supporting this. +1 Mk.0 Specialist, Republic Loyalist "Badassery is not born, but often thrust upon you." -Franklin Delano Roosevelt

Slave of MORTE 382	Posted - 2015.04.19 09:52:00 - [31] - Quote +1 I'm her slave because amarrians are the best in the sheets #stamina
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3852	Posted - 2015.04.20 17:05:00 - [32] - Quote Thanks for the posts everyone. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
dzizur Nos Nothi 231	Posted - 2015.04.21 16:33:00 - [33] - Quote kinde of nice ideas and read till I read this sentence "The problem, however, is that there is no way in hell a basic Amarr Assault is going to use all of their High Slots for a Precision Enhancer or a third of their Low Slots for a Profile Dampener. This ebb and flow, counter-play is simply not going to happen at the basic suit level because the rewards are not high enough." If ANY suit is not going to "use all high slots or 1/3 of low slots for profile dampener" then that suit (and the player in this suit) can go flux themselves. So all high and all lows tank is cool and all lows and high with EWAR (as if a pointer on a map was worthy of that name...) is bad? What kind of twisted logic is that?
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3855	Posted - 2015.04.21 19:55:00 - [34] - Quote dzizur wrote: kinde of nice ideas and read till I read this sentence "The problem, however, is that there is no way in hell a basic Amarr Assault is going to use all of their High Slots for a Precision Enhancer or a third of their Low Slots for a Profile Dampener. This ebb and flow, counter-play is simply not going to happen at the basic suit level because the rewards are not high enough." If ANY suit is not going to "use all high slots or 1/3 of low slots for profile dampener" then that suit (and the player in this suit) can go flux themselves. So all high and all lows tank is cool and all lows and high with EWAR (as if a pointer on a map was worthy of that name...) is bad? What kind of twisted logic is that? Not at all. I didn't mean it like that at all. In fact, if you quote the next part, it becomes more clear. "This has potential to create a metagame; there are a lot of Scouts so I need this. The problem, however, is that there is no way in hell a basic Amarr Assault is going to use all of their High Slots for a Precision Enhancer or a third of their Low Slots for a Profile Dampener. This ebb and flow, counter-play is simply not going to happen at the basic suit level because the rewards are not high enough." The bolded sentence is the part that was left out. I was not saying "All E-War is bad", I was saying "A basic suit would not use a Profile Dampener or a Precision Enhancer because the rewards are not high enough to go away with most of their slots. A Prototype Suit, that has far more slots, would be more willing to engage in this metagame. If all dropsuits had the same slot layout as they would have at Prototype, could also participate in this metagame." If you want to look at it a different way, without any ambiguity of "ohh, you just want full tank!", look at it like this: "I am a Scout. I use Profile Dampeners. However, I cannot actually get to the place where I am able to be a 'real' Scout because I don't use Prototype suits. Basic and Advanced suits don't have the slot layout to be 'real' Scouts. I cannot be that Stealthy, Fast, really easy to kill guy because my suits don't let me to." With the change, everyone at any level could participate in the game they wanted to play. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Username Alpha Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.04.21 21:09:00 - [35] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: We have to make sure we adjust CPU/PG to accommodate the new slots. If new players have to leave module slots empty because they don't have the CPU/PG to fill them then we are right back where we are now. Not at all! Currently, the only practical difference between Militia and Basic (excluding weapons) is usually the skill requirement. But if a basic suit had as many slots as a pro suit, you'd actually have a reason to use basic stuff over militia stuff. I also think that increasing the CPU/PG of basic suits would go against the spirit of the proposal. P.S. If a person did find themselves with empty slots because of the fancy stuff they were putting in other slots, that would incentivize them to move to ADV level, or ADV to PRO. If anything, I suspect this might help players decide what type of suit (assault, logi, etc.) they're more passionate about! But keep in mind I'm saying this as a noob-vet; I don't have any PRO suit access yet.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3855	Posted - 2015.04.21 21:50:00 - [36] - Quote Username Alpha wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: We have to make sure we adjust CPU/PG to accommodate the new slots. If new players have to leave module slots empty because they don't have the CPU/PG to fill them then we are right back where we are now. Not at all! Currently, the only practical difference between Militia and Basic (excluding weapons) is usually the skill requirement. But if a basic suit had as many slots as a pro suit, you'd actually have a reason to use basic stuff over militia stuff. I also think that increasing the CPU/PG of basic suits would go against the spirit of the proposal. I would actually be in favor of looking into the CPU/PG of the Basic and possibly even Advanced suits. I am not saying it would be mandatory but it should be looked into to see if there are any major cracks. IE, the Caldari Logistics has all those slots but cannot actually fill the things because they have massive CPU problems. Slightly off topic though. I think you should at least be able to throw in all Standard slots in a Standard suit. With higher skills, you can potentially work out to have certain modules be Advanced or higher and even at the cost of others. Highs: 3 Shield Extenders 1 Energizer 1 Recharger Lows: 1 Reactive Plate 2 Regulators Assault Rail Rifle Magsec SMG Locus Grenade Compact Nanohive This is what the hypothetical new players would do with a Basic Caldari Assault suit with zero skills other than requirements. That is a total of 198 CPU / 25 PG. The current basic Caldari Assault has 178 CPU / 27 PG. So it isn't out of the question that Basic level be increased. However, not doing it isn't that bad for a few reasons: 1. It showcases how important the Passive Skills are. In fact, this change would those skills even more awesome. Just getting Electronics to 2 and Caldari Basic Assault to level 1 causes the above fitting to work. 2. It creates different builds depending on skills. Maybe the new player throws in a militia CPU to make up the difference or decides to not use a Grenade/Sidearm. 3. It differentiates power to a degree. "My Prototype suit is just a Basic! What is the point?!" Well, that basic suit still only has at max 233.625 CPU. The hypothetical new person could ask "What is the point of adding in Passive Skills? I don't see it mattering!" The reply is simple: "With an extra 55 CPU, you can up those Basic Extenders to Advanced Extenders netting you an extra 51 HP." It might be necessary to look into the suit's PG/CPU but it isn't absolutely necessary from my quick eye-ball of a single suit. Regardless, I still feel the change would give a much needed boost to poorer and newer players without actually removing power from those that can run Prototype. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 3027	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:00:00 - [37] - Quote Username Alpha wrote: Not at all! Currently, the only practical difference between Militia and Basic (excluding weapons) is usually the skill requirement. But if a basic suit had as many slots as a pro suit, you'd actually have a reason to use basic stuff over militia stuff. I also think that increasing the CPU/PG of basic suits would go against the spirit of the proposal. P.S. If a person did find themselves with empty slots because of the fancy stuff they were putting in other slots, that would incentivize them to move to ADV level, or ADV to PRO. If anything, I suspect this might help players decide what type of suit (assault, logi, etc.) they're more passionate about! But keep in mind I'm saying this as a noob-vet; I don't have any PRO suit access yet. And new players who have no skills in fitting would be uable to deploy. As it is, a max skills character couldn't fit an all militia fit, so a player with only 500,000 SP will definitely be unable to fill all the slots. So either up the fitting space, or just don't do it at all. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Scheneighnay McBob And the ButtPirates 6150	Posted - 2015.04.21 23:43:00 - [38] - Quote wut Some details can be ignored
Text Grant PIanet Express Smart Deploy 421	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:31:00 - [39] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Username Alpha wrote: Not at all! Currently, the only practical difference between Militia and Basic (excluding weapons) is usually the skill requirement. But if a basic suit had as many slots as a pro suit, you'd actually have a reason to use basic stuff over militia stuff. I also think that increasing the CPU/PG of basic suits would go against the spirit of the proposal. P.S. If a person did find themselves with empty slots because of the fancy stuff they were putting in other slots, that would incentivize them to move to ADV level, or ADV to PRO. If anything, I suspect this might help players decide what type of suit (assault, logi, etc.) they're more passionate about! But keep in mind I'm saying this as a noob-vet; I don't have any PRO suit access yet. And new players who have no skills in fitting would be uable to deploy. As it is, a max skills character couldn't fit an all militia fit, so a player with only 500,000 SP will definitely be unable to fill all the slots. So either up the fitting space, or just don't do it at all. Actually, you only have to fill one weapon slot on any dropsuit to have a valid fitting.
Megaman Trigger Ready to Play 285	Posted - 2015.04.22 01:47:00 - [40] - Quote Text Grant wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Username Alpha wrote: Not at all! Currently, the only practical difference between Militia and Basic (excluding weapons) is usually the skill requirement. But if a basic suit had as many slots as a pro suit, you'd actually have a reason to use basic stuff over militia stuff. I also think that increasing the CPU/PG of basic suits would go against the spirit of the proposal. P.S. If a person did find themselves with empty slots because of the fancy stuff they were putting in other slots, that would incentivize them to move to ADV level, or ADV to PRO. If anything, I suspect this might help players decide what type of suit (assault, logi, etc.) they're more passionate about! But keep in mind I'm saying this as a noob-vet; I don't have any PRO suit access yet. And new players who have no skills in fitting would be uable to deploy. As it is, a max skills character couldn't fit an all militia fit, so a player with only 500,000 SP will definitely be unable to fill all the slots. So either up the fitting space, or just don't do it at all. Actually, you only have to fill one weapon slot on any dropsuit to have a valid fitting. Imagine your a new player fresh into the game and you go to use a starter fit, which now has the same slots as Proto but is all militia BPO gear. Which is great. Except the PG and CPU were never buffed to match the slot increase, meaning you're starter fit is over the limit and now you can't deploy in your suit. If you try to make your own fittings, you'll have to leave module slots empty just to be able to run the suit, which defies the point of increasing the slot count in the first place. Purifier. First Class.

Username Alpha Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2015.04.22 02:56:00 - [41] - Quote Megaman Trigger wrote: Text Grant wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: And new players who have no skills in fitting would be uable to deploy. As it is, a max skills character couldn't fit an all militia fit, so a player with only 500,000 SP will definitely be unable to fill all the slots. So either up the fitting space, or just don't do it at all. Actually, you only have to fill one weapon slot on any dropsuit to have a valid fitting. Imagine your a new player fresh into the game and you go to use a starter fit, which now has the same slots as Proto but is all militia BPO gear. Which is great. Except the PG and CPU were never buffed to match the slot increase, meaning you're starter fit is over the limit and now you can't deploy in your suit. If you try to make your own fittings, you'll have to leave module slots empty just to be able to run the suit, which defies the point of increasing the slot count in the first place. Starter fit? What do you mean? The starter BPO loadouts aren't the same as the standard-level dropsuits. There's no reason to think that this proposal would result in players being given proto-slotcount starter loadout BPOs. Obviously any loadout meant for new players would be able to deploy with no earned SP. A newbie in a standard dropsuit with a proto-level slotcount wouldn't be able to fill all those slots, true, but they'd be able to fill more than what they can now! And it would sort of defeat the purpose to meet somewhere in the middle. IMO it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to strongly incentivize new players to invest in core skills (electronics/engineering) by showing them what they're missing. I don't have any objection to adjusting PG/CPU for individual dropsuits, but I didn't envision this proposal including a general adjustment to PG/CPU for standard (and advanced) dropsuits. To me it seems like saying "and while we're at it, adjust Militia and Basic Drop Uplinks so that the militia gear doesn't have lower PG/CPU requirements than the basic item!" It's a good idea, sure, but it's mission creep.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3866	Posted - 2015.04.23 02:16:00 - [42] - Quote For me, I would have the Starter fits still be what they are now. It could be a good tool for the hypothetical new players (HNP). "Cool, I have these suits! I can kill people." "Wait, why does this suit have so many more slots? Alright, I guess I will build this suit just like that one." For Militia suits, I am little torn. On one hand, it sucks for the HNP to have the ONLY suit they can use being so so much weaker than even the Basic Suit. A Militia Medium Caldari Frame would have 2/1/1 while a Basic Medium Caldari Frame would have 4/3/1. That doesn't amount to too much extra HP, like 100 with Basic modules, but it is still a concern. The concern is that the new players is making a choice in race before knowing what the hell each race does, but that is of course off topic. I would suggest that Basic and Advanced suits get what is underlined in the proposal while Militia and Starter suits do not. It provides a LOT of power very early. For less than 60k SP, they can get a suit that is far more threatening than what is currently possible. It gives them a big juicy carrot to make themselves a superior suit. Frames would probably need a nerf in the CPU/PG department, believe it or not. The Basic Medium Frame is 195/37 while the Basic Caldari Assault has 178/27. Either the Frame needs a reduction or the Basic Assaults need a buff. Keep the discussion going and, please, keep it in lines with the original topic. Thanks everyone! "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood Rise Of Legion. 361	Posted - 2015.04.23 12:11:00 - [43] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: For me, I would have the Starter fits still be what they are now. It could be a good tool for the hypothetical new players (HNP). "Cool, I have these suits! I can kill people." "Wait, why does this suit have so many more slots? Alright, I guess I will build this suit just like that one." For Militia suits, I am little torn. On one hand, it sucks for the HNP to have the ONLY suit they can use being so so much weaker than even the Basic Suit. A Militia Medium Caldari Frame would have 2/1/1 while a Basic Medium Caldari Frame would have 4/3/1. That doesn't amount to too much extra HP, like 100 with Basic modules, but it is still a concern. The concern is that the new players is making a choice in race before knowing what the hell each race does, but that is of course off topic. I would suggest that Basic and Advanced suits get what is underlined in the proposal while Militia and Starter suits do not. It provides a LOT of power very early. For less than 60k SP, they can get a suit that is far more threatening than what is currently possible. It gives them a big juicy carrot to make themselves a superior suit. Frames would probably need a nerf in the CPU/PG department, believe it or not. The Basic Medium Frame is 195/37 while the Basic Caldari Assault has 178/27. Either the Frame needs a reduction or the Basic Assaults need a buff. Keep the discussion going and, please, keep it in lines with the original topic. Thanks everyone! Thats true too! But honestly.... All cal suits need a lil love on fittings, or sHP needs lower fitting costs. e.g: i can squeeze mostly advanced on a g-1 with low skills, but need almost max skills for the same thing with a c-1. skills cal ass 4, core 5, electronics 5, engineering 4, light weapons 5 Vs gal ass 1, core 2, light weapons 1 Neeext, would be lowering suit costs... At the moment all basic on a basic comes to about 10-12k Now, im only thinking for the new peeps.... So... Yu kinda feel me? The ADS tourney! Join today!
ZDub 303 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 3398	Posted - 2015.04.23 13:29:00 - [44] - Quote I remember suggesting this about 12-18 months ago. Many many people have pushed for a pseudo tiercide of dropsuits at one point or another. I actually got a direct response from Rattati about it once. He said something along the lines of "Its not a bad idea, but I won't do it. Dust is tiered dropsuits and its staying that way". Curious if his stance has changed on this topic since. A huge problem in Dust is that customization is such a key factor, and building dropsuits is a truly core mechanic to the experience. Yet unless you are quite rich and can run proto suits often you are stuck running suits with almost no modules. I tried to convey that point, saying if you limit CPU/PG on these suits then you really don't get much bang for your buck on standard suits anyways, but having 5-6 slots to play with even at standard level is so much more engaging than the pitiful 2-3 that you currently get, even less for non-med suits. Additionally, it would help lower the percieved power gap between vets and new players. If a new player sees a proto suit and is like, "I can't ever compete, he has twice the slots than I do and all these passives... F' it I give up /ragequit", I really think many of those types of players in a pseudo-tiercide system would be like, "Well I don't have the same CPU/PG than that proto suit but I can build the same suit and get pretty close! Man I want that proto suit". Its not really about how large the power gap actually is, its just about how players perceive that gap to be that matters in terms of retention.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3869	Posted - 2015.04.23 16:33:00 - [45] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: I remember suggesting this about 12-18 months ago. Many many people have pushed for a pseudo tiercide of dropsuits at one point or another. I actually got a direct response from Rattati about it once. He said something along the lines of "Its not a bad idea, but I won't do it. Dust is tiered dropsuits and its staying that way". Curious if his stance has changed on this topic since. A huge problem in Dust is that customization is such a key factor, and building dropsuits is a truly core mechanic to the experience. Yet unless you are quite rich and can run proto suits often you are stuck running suits with almost no modules. I tried to convey that point, saying if you limit CPU/PG on these suits then you really don't get much bang for your buck on standard suits anyways, but having 5-6 slots to play with even at standard level is so much more engaging than the pitiful 2-3 that you currently get, even less for non-med suits. Additionally, it would help lower the percieved power gap between vets and new players. If a new player sees a proto suit and is like, "I can't ever compete, he has twice the slots than I do and all these passives... F' it I give up /ragequit", I really think many of those types of players in a pseudo-tiercide system would be like, "Well I don't have the same CPU/PG than that proto suit but I can build the same suit and get pretty close! Man I want that proto suit". Its not really about how large the power gap actually is, its just about how players perceive that gap to be that matters in terms of retention. Aye, you hit all the points I wanted to make though without my uncontrollable verbosity. "More slots yields choices and not just power." So you can have the Basic Suit with 2 E-War modules because it isn't 100% of their slots being used. "Perceived power difference." I am not so sure if it will be more of a perceived difference or actually being a difference. Either way, that is a win in my book. But it is important for players to have at least a chance at the top players stuff. Weird analogy but Hearthstone has 3 different cards. One is a 2/2 with Spell Power, one is a 2/1 that when it dies it draws a card, and one is a 1/1 Spell Power and draws a card when it dies. Now the first card is automatically available, the second is very, very easy to get, and the third is quite difficult/rare to get. The 1/1 is naturally a better card because it has both features of the others. However, it can be substituted for either the 2/2 if you need Spell Power or the 2/1 if you want a card draw. "What the hell are you talking about?" Just like ZDub mentioned; you have to give the new guy a chance to at least substitute or at least the thought process of "okay, I don't have everything but hey, my 2/2 is better than his 2/1!" I too wonder if Rattati's thoughts on the matters have changed. Tanks were tiered until they weren't. It is probably also going to happen to Dropships and LAV's. I don't see why it cannot also happen to Dropsuits; 'everything' stays the way it is until it changes. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3898	Posted - 2015.04.26 01:43:00 - [46] - Quote Rattati? "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3974	Posted - 2015.05.02 00:56:00 - [47] - Quote Trying not to overdue it, respectful bump. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Indianna Pwns TERRA R1SING 95	Posted - 2015.05.02 01:20:00 - [48] - Quote This needs to happen. The fittings and customisation aspect of dust is one of its key selling points, however its only ever going to be experienced properly by vets if things don't change. Let newer players experience it as well, make it happen.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1494	Posted - 2015.05.02 02:32:00 - [49] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Sorry for the wall. TL;DR / Bullet point version: * All Dropsuits, regardless of Tier, receive the same layout as their Prototype counter-part. CPU/PG is the only thing that increases from Basic to Advanced to Prototype. * Makes advancing suits easier because you upgrade modules rather than receive 3 additional slots. * Removes the terrible layout scaling that many dropsuits have. * Provides a large boost of power to the new player. * Allows suits lower than Prototype to be built in more varieties of ways. * The model is exactly how current Tanks work. You are forgetting where we are located. Dust514 shares New Eden with EVE Online. Both CCP properties. The CCP corporate motto is HTFU. Scamming and shanking newbies is the name of the game. That you can spell the name of the game as EVE or Dust doesn't really matter. Newbies are never in their scope. Unless that scope has crosshairs. My favorite tank is a Lightning. Just sayin.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3976	Posted - 2015.05.02 08:50:00 - [50] - Quote That is a really limited scope Kal. First, HTFU started as "if you want to be as good as us, HTFU." It should not, cannot, be used as a pointless excuse to keep things obtuse. Thankfully, CCP does not fall into this trap often. They completely revamped the starting missions in EVE to make it more new player friendly. Based on the other tieracides they have done (kestrals not simply being "better" than Merlins) and for what has happened with tanks, this proposal only seems to make sense to me. thanks for the post! "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"

Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3989	Posted - 2015.05.08 01:11:00 - [51] - Quote So Apex suits can be adjusted now. So, how about it CCP? "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"


Pages: 1 2 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.