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Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3782	Posted - 2015.04.15 10:30:00 - [1] - Quote So Tanks recently got a change so that the difference between a Standard, Advanced, and Prototype Tank was the amount of CPU/PG between the three and that's it. This means that you can fit a Standard Tank the same way you can fit a Prototype tank, just that you will have to use weaker modules (you have 5 lows regardless of Madrugar, so maybe you have basic instead of advanced modules but you still have the same fit). This seems like a good idea for dropsuits. Reason #1: Certain dropsuits have terrible, terrible scaling. Let's take a look at the Logistics suits: - Basic: Amarr: 2H 2L 2 E, Sidearm Caldari: 2H 1L 2E Gallente: 1H 2L 3E Minmatar: 2H 2L 3E - Advanced: Amarr: 3H 3L 3 E, Sidearm Caldari: 3H 2L 3E Gallente: 2H 3L 3E Minmatar: 3H 3L 3E - Prototype: Amarr: 3H 4L 3 E, Sidearm Caldari: 5H 4L 3E Gallente: 3H 5L 4E Minmatar: 4H 4L 4E Looking at Prototype, it seems balanced. Minmatar have a 4/4 set up, owing to their dual tank nature, and 4 Equipment (12 total). Gallente have a 3/5 set up, supporting their Armor focus, and 4 Equipment (12 total). Caldari have a 5/4 set up, supporting their Shield set up, and 3 Equipment (12 total). Amarr have a 3/4 set up with only 3 Equipment but have a Sidearm (11 total). It looks fairly fair. Caldari have the highest defensive slots but with only 3 Equipment. Amarr give up one defensive slot and one equipment to get a Sidearm (in truth, they should probably be 3/5 as well). But look at it from the basic level. Basic: Minmatar has 2/2/3, which is great. Amarr has 2/2/2 but has a sidearm, equaling the Minmatar. Gallente has 1/2/3, which means less slots than the Minmatar. Caldari take up the rear massively with 1/2/2. Caldari simply lost out. Advanced: Amarr is the clear standout at 3/3/3 and a sidearm. Next we have Minmatar with 3/3/3. Gallente and Caldari are equal with 2/3 and 3/2 layouts. Prototype: This is probably where it was meant to be balanced. The idea of "Caldari will have more slots than anyone else" doesn't even happen until Prototype level, which is 2 million SP deep and using the most expensive suits in the game. The lower level balances are out of synch. If the layouts of the Standard, Advanced, and Prototype suits were the same the trading done would 'work' at each level. Reason #2: It gives a lot of power to the Basic and Advanced suits. 'Protostomping' has been an issue in the community for at least 18 months. A Prototype suit will have at least twice the HP of a basic suit and will do far, far more damage. If the Basic suits received the same lay out as the Prototype suits and potentially even an increase in CPU/PG, the power gap between the suits would fall. Prototype would still be better given that they could fit all those modules to be Advanced and Prototype but it wouldn't be as much of a chasm as it is now. If the basic Caldari Logistics could use all those slots for basic modules, they could gain 100 shields, 71 Armor using Ferroscale, and 5.1 Armor repair using 2 Repairers. This does nothing to hurt the Prototype user; they will still have superior equipment and superior HP but only 50-100% more rather than 200% more. Reason #3: It makes it easier to transition from Basic to Advanced to Prototype. Rather than having to figure out what to do with your extra 2 slots and CPU/PG, every level would only give additional CPU/PG. This means that the hypothetical new player could figure out a fit that they like at the basic level and that suit will still work at the Advanced level, only with better modules. Reason #4: It opens up more options. The notion behind the Scanning changes was that there would be a reason to use Profile Dampeners even if you weren't a Scout. Paraphrasing Rattati: "An Amarr Assault could make it so they would only be seen within the medium range rather than the long range with Dampeners and the same Assault would be able to pick up non-Dampened Scouts in the close range with a Precision Enhancer." This has potential to create a metagame; there are a lot of Scouts so I need this. The problem, however, is that there is no way in hell a basic Amarr Assault is going to use all of their High Slots for a Precision Enhancer or a third of their Low Slots for a Profile Dampener. This ebb and flow, counter-play is simply not going to happen at the basic suit level because the rewards are not high enough. "This make it less worthwhile to go Prototype." Take a look at the games where you see Tanks. Are they all Basic? I see quite a few Basic, Advanced, and Prototype Tanks out there. It seems like those players still see a use for going above Basic to fit superior modules. I don't see why a Dropsuit that is 1/15th the base cost of a tank would be any different. "This makes the APEX suits nearly worthless." This... is absolutely true. APEX suits were meant to be the "Prototype suit with basic modules" that I am proposing be made now. There are a few ways to go about rectifying this. 1. Make the APEX suits adjustable. Give them the proper CPU/PG of a Basic Suit but the blueprints cost zero CPU/PG. They still work for free suits and still work as a newbie aid. 2. Reduce the price of the APEX suits bought via Aurum. "They are less important so we are reducing the price." Give a partial refund, perhaps? 3. Increase the power of the APEX modules. APEX suits are already miles ahead of Basic suits so buffing them in response to the increase of power to the Basic suits doesn't change anything. The APEX thing is entirely a valid point. However, you don't choose to keep something broken because the fix results in a different, less sticky problem. Thoughts, opinions, suggestions? "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3782	Posted - 2015.04.15 10:32:00 - [2] - Quote Sorry for the wall. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood Rise Of Legion. 323	Posted - 2015.04.15 12:16:00 - [3] - Quote I agree, for many reasons. 1st: as IWS said the game has "too many variables." (which I believe has no effect on game because not all variables would be used in game), this would cut varibles involving suits considerably. (even though it isn't needed after deployment). Still, it would relieve a little stress on the cell, even if it's just a little bit. 2nd: INCREASES TTK! YESSIR! finally! I wouldn't see a proto suit and get super scared. 3rd: i can use up my resources, and get more eHP per tier at a low cost. I can also build complex fits... Like actually have a scanning assault. 4th: it could make cpu/pg be reworked for some suits and/or modules. The ADS tourney! Join today!
Text Grant PIanet Express Smart Deploy 412	Posted - 2015.04.15 12:26:00 - [4] - Quote The plan for APEX suits last I heard is to make them adjustable, with the exact CPU/PG it takes to operate with 0 skills. I'm 100% on board with tiericide.
ANAHEIM Darko Corrosive Synergy Rise Of Legion. 225	Posted - 2015.04.15 12:44:00 - [5] - Quote I'm an Apex junkie, so if you're telling me that you can switch out modules for others, with a PG/CPU limitation, I could go with that. Else add a range of Apex module BPOs - all standard tier, that are interchangeable with the Apex suits. CalAss Grunt. Former Eve Pilot. --Cellar Door
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6241	Posted - 2015.04.15 12:44:00 - [6] - Quote Read it. Support it. "Liked" it. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
DJINN Jecture MANUFACTURERS OF DEATH 330	Posted - 2015.04.15 13:48:00 - [7] - Quote The Logi suits are all well known to be the best example of bad scaling, as well as not having anything other than a random slot layout progression. What are you asking for, fixing slot layouts? *-ç +æ+Ä ß+¦ß¦+Gé¦ß+¡ !!!* *ß¦äß¦â-à*
Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H 292	Posted - 2015.04.15 14:05:00 - [8] - Quote At pro, the amarr sacrifices a module slot,an equipment slot and has below average cpu and pg. This seems like a bit much loss compared to a single gain (sidearm). Also the cal logistics at pro has 9 total slots but can't utilise all of them properly if carrying pro equipment and pro weapons. Gallente and min logistics are fine. What I can't understand though is that logi are one of the slowest suits in the game. They are supposed to be fast for quick support. They need to be be to dive into battle and support allies under fire then escape with little time Dust 514: Unlimited Scrub Works
Megaman Trigger Ready to Play 268	Posted - 2015.04.15 14:33:00 - [9] - Quote Would this be rolled out to all Drop Suits or just the Logi suits? Either way, I support it. Purifier. First Class.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3788	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:01:00 - [10] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: The Logi suits are all well known to be the best example of bad scaling, as well as not having anything other than a random slot layout progression. What are you asking for, fixing slot layouts? What I am asking for is Dropsuits to be treated the same way tanks are; the only difference between Basic, Advanced, and Prototype is CPU/PG. It is tieracide, essentially. I just used Logistics as a way to show that bad scaling can be fixed by just giving all suits of the same type the same slot layout regardless of quality. To avoid ambiguity: I mean for all suits to have the same slot layout as their Prototype versions and merely only have differing CPU/PG at each level. That is, the Amarr* Assault** have the same layout at Basic and Advanced as it does at Prototype. : Exchange Amarr for Caldari, Gallente, or Minmatar as needed. : Exchange Assault for Commando, Logistics, Scout, or Sentinel as needed Georgia Xavier wrote:* At pro, the amarr sacrifices a module slot,an equipment slot and has below average cpu and pg. This seems like a bit much loss compared to a single gain (sidearm). Also the cal logistics at pro has 9 total slots but can't utilise all of them properly if carrying pro equipment and pro weapons. Gallente and min logistics are fine. What I can't understand though is that logi are one of the slowest suits in the game. They are supposed to be fast for quick support. They need to be be to dive into battle and support allies under fire then escape with little time That is a different issue than what I intended to address in this post. The balance between the different race's suits is certainly something to look into but it is generally best to keep to a single Feature/Idea per thread to keep it easier to track and follow. Megaman Trigger wrote: Would this be rolled out to all Drop Suits or just the Logi suits? Either way, I support it. All dropsuits. Thanks for the posts everyone. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"

Georgia Xavier Y.A.M.A.H 292	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:07:00 - [11] - Quote My bad for diverting the topic. Anyways what you meant was keeping the same slot layout through the suit progression right? Difference is the cpu and pg increases Eg: amarr assault Std: 3H/5L Adv: 3H/5L Pro: 3H/5L Or am I wrong? Dust 514: Unlimited Scrub Works
Racro 01 Arifistan Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 529	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:09:00 - [12] - Quote bump. love this idea. *Elite Gallenten Soldier*
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3789	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:23:00 - [13] - Quote Georgia Xavier wrote: My bad for diverting the topic. Anyways what you meant was keeping the same slot layout through the suit progression right? Difference is the cpu and pg increases Eg: amarr assault Std: 3H/5L Adv: 3H/5L Pro: 3H/5L Or am I wrong? Correct. Obviously applied to every suit. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Lightning35 Delta514 48TH SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCE 261	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:24:00 - [14] - Quote -1. 48th Special Operations Force. Twitter- @48SOF
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3789	Posted - 2015.04.15 15:31:00 - [15] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: -1. I would love to know what concerns you have. Perhaps you see some flaw that I have missed? Thanks. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
korrah silain True Illuminate 21	Posted - 2015.04.15 19:11:00 - [16] - Quote Yes please, would be a good change for all the reasons you stated.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3809	Posted - 2015.04.18 12:29:00 - [17] - Quote Thanks for the post. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1483	Posted - 2015.04.18 12:49:00 - [18] - Quote I support this idea. The principle works, generally, for HAVs and I see absolutely no reason to not apply that principle to dropsuits. As you've said it allows far greater flexibility of fits at the lower levels and the tiers can be balanced through CPU/PG. +1, would like again. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4350	Posted - 2015.04.18 15:27:00 - [19] - Quote Text Grant wrote: The plan for APEX suits last I heard is to make them adjustable, with the exact CPU/PG it takes to operate with 0 skills. I'm 100% on board with tiericide. Link? CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 3812	Posted - 2015.04.18 16:17:00 - [20] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Text Grant wrote: The plan for APEX suits last I heard is to make them adjustable, with the exact CPU/PG it takes to operate with 0 skills. I'm 100% on board with tiericide. Link? "Like, why would you know? I know you are CPM but Rattati is always going on and on and on about how 'Cross is such a weenie and a loser and smells bad.' Yeah, he mentioned it at last night's poker game. Oh, you don't know about the poker games? Dennie offered to give you a call but Rattati gave him a glare that made him sit back down." (The above is meant to be a playful joke at the idea that a CPM wouldn't know about a certain proposal and is in no way meant to be an attack on anyone mentioned or not mentioned. Whether or not Rattati has a secret poker game, I certainly would not be invited given my neckbeardness and tendency to belch.) A quick digression: I don't think the APEX thing would work. Giving them exact CPU/PG to use the modules with zero skills would mean that people could take out inefficient modules to get a flat out better BPO suit than Quafe, Raven, Sever, or Valor with Core Skills maxed. Back on topic: What do you think of the tieracide/'tankacide' idea Cross? "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"

Text Grant PIanet Express Smart Deploy 420	Posted - 2015.04.18 17:15:00 - [21] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Text Grant wrote: The plan for APEX suits last I heard is to make them adjustable, with the exact CPU/PG it takes to operate with 0 skills. I'm 100% on board with tiericide. Link? Check rattatis big board of things. It's annoying to read, I know. Do you still play? I haven't seen you since conspiritus
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4355	Posted - 2015.04.18 19:50:00 - [22] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Text Grant wrote: The plan for APEX suits last I heard is to make them adjustable, with the exact CPU/PG it takes to operate with 0 skills. I'm 100% on board with tiericide. Link? "Like, why would you know? I know you are CPM but Rattati is always going on and on and on about how 'Cross is such a weenie and a loser and smells bad.' Yeah, he mentioned it at last night's poker game. Oh, you don't know about the poker games? Dennie offered to give you a call but Rattati gave him a glare that made him sit back down." (The above is meant to be a playful joke at the idea that a CPM wouldn't know about a certain proposal and is in no way meant to be an attack on anyone mentioned or not mentioned. Whether or not Rattati has a secret poker game, I certainly would not be invited given my neckbeardness and tendency to belch.) A quick digression: I don't think the APEX thing would work. Giving them exact CPU/PG to use the modules with zero skills would mean that people could take out inefficient modules to get a flat out better BPO suit than Quafe, Raven, Sever, or Valor with Core Skills maxed. Back on topic: What do you think of the tieracide/'tankacide' idea Cross? well played sir Who knows, maybe I'm being an evil lazy space fat cat and demanding others do the work of linking for me Whatever the case in the information war it is time for me to stop dragging this thread off topic and respond to your question about the OP. I've run some numbers today and my TL;DR on the subject is as follows. - Support the proposal, and think it would be healthy for the game. (because a ~35% spread seems more reasonable than a ~65% spread) - Implementing the proposal should come hand in hand with a price adjustment to ADV and PRO suits as while they would still offer superior function and value the margin of said value would be moderately diminished (by the increased function of the STD suits) so the gap in ISK cost should **** accordingly. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4355	Posted - 2015.04.18 19:52:00 - [23] - Quote Text Grant wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Text Grant wrote: The plan for APEX suits last I heard is to make them adjustable, with the exact CPU/PG it takes to operate with 0 skills. I'm 100% on board with tiericide. Link? Check rattatis big board of things. It's annoying to read, I know. Do you still play? I haven't seen you since conspiritus Ah the board, yeah I must admit I don't read the board often Yes I still play every week and nearly every day. Barring Fan Fest, I didn't play while I was out of the country EDIT: For those keeping score at home the proposal Text was referring to is as follows Big Board of Things wrote: Unlock APEX suits so that they have the exact necessary fitting space with zero skills to use, and then players can arrange within that boundary. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 3019	Posted - 2015.04.18 19:56:00 - [24] - Quote We have to make sure we adjust CPU/PG to accommodate the new slots. If new players have to leave module slots empty because they don't have the CPU/PG to fill them then we are right back where we are now. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4356	Posted - 2015.04.18 19:59:00 - [25] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: We have to make sure we adjust CPU/PG to accommodate the new slots. If new players have to leave module slots empty because they don't have the CPU/PG to fill them then we are right back where we are now. The rough drafts I've done so far don't show a real need to increase the CPU/PG. It's only a first pass so I expect there to be outliers in that, but any adjustments made will likely be very minor. The baseline I'd stamp it to would be running a full set of mods of the same level as the suit. Which we should be pretty close to/require only minor adjustments to reach. But yes you are correct CPU/PG has to be accounted for at the same time o7 CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood Rise Of Legion. 340	Posted - 2015.04.18 21:13:00 - [26] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: We have to make sure we adjust CPU/PG to accommodate the new slots. If new players have to leave module slots empty because they don't have the CPU/PG to fill them then we are right back where we are now. A good example would be a cal assault. At basic, one has plenty of freedom on fitting space But at pro, it is squeeze fitting. I honestly don't think it's the suit tbh, i think it's the costs of pro highslot modules. But that's just my opinion, just a thought The ADS tourney! Join today!
NINEinch WEAPON WarRavens 81	Posted - 2015.04.18 21:30:00 - [27] - Quote With regards to the fitting... Why can we not have skills added to the skill tree.. Example; shield module proficiency.. 2% reduction to cpu per level. or something along those lines... Would help with squeezing the last few modules on. aswell as being more of an sp sink. "winning" an inch at a time
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1485	Posted - 2015.04.18 21:32:00 - [28] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: - Implementing the proposal should come hand in hand with a price adjustment to ADV and PRO suits as while they would still offer superior function and value the margin of said value would be moderately diminished (by the increased function of the STD suits) so the gap in ISK cost should shift accordingly. Sooo...do you support modifying vehicle costs because of the same principle? While HAVs currently have a gentler progression than dropsuits, they still cost an enormous amount between tiers. PRO HAVs are what, 800k hulls? ADV are what, 300k? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4358	Posted - 2015.04.18 21:45:00 - [29] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Cross Atu wrote: - Implementing the proposal should come hand in hand with a price adjustment to ADV and PRO suits as while they would still offer superior function and value the margin of said value would be moderately diminished (by the increased function of the STD suits) so the gap in ISK cost should shift accordingly. Sooo...do you support modifying vehicle costs because of the same principle? While HAVs currently have a gentler progression than dropsuits, they still cost an enormous amount between tiers. PRO HAVs are what, 800k hulls? ADV are what, 300k? I'd have to look a lot more deeply at the current state of module potency/balance before I could render an opinion on that. While conceptually it is easy to say that cost and power progression between both frames and hulls should mirror (and at the conceptual level it tracks) that doesn't mean that mods are 1:1 even within their respective contexts (infantry or vehicle) much less than such balance can be directly cross-applied. Then there are other questions such as; What % of effective value is a mod for a HAV vs a dropsuit. What % of total fit costs are mods vs Hull/Frame for each line. Is the alteration of STD frames to mimic Pro slots equivalent to the current power progression of HAVs (the method used can be the same without the impact being of the same magnitude). But I'd certainly entertain that case being made if someone cares to really delve into the mathematics and details of the subject in depth. CPM 1 mail me your feedback and remember to have fun!
Chimichanga66605 Vader's Taco Shack 374	Posted - 2015.04.18 22:27:00 - [30] - Quote Seems legit. I have zero problem supporting this. +1 Mk.0 Specialist, Republic Loyalist "Badassery is not born, but often thrust upon you." -Franklin Delano Roosevelt



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