So the tl;dr version is basically....

make armor rep more per cycle, but have longer cycles, so the armor is more susceptible to burst damage. HP Regenerated per minute remains the same.

This is basically how active armor reps worked in the past (Five 3 second cycles, repped at the end of each cycle) as well as how it works in EVE, where armor repairers have much longer cycle with a large HP bonus per cycle than a shield booster which traditionally has a short cycle.

Totally on board with this, though I have concerns about how difficult it will be to alter cycle lengths, but that's more of a TechEval than anything.

We could just make reps active again.

Although this could work as well.

I agree. Active reps would be far superior, but Tenbu's idea here is certainly a lower hanging fruit and would help to address some of the current meta without stupid hard limits on module use.

I don't want to do away with passive reps myself. I think they should be here just as active reps should. In the future though, active reps would provide the burst healing against burst DPS, and we could increase the passive reps cycles even higher.

Reps at 10s passive or burst reps at 3s per tick but with activation time and cooldown. In any case, active reps aren't here so workin with what we got!

Believe it or not, I have no problem with the rep rate.

It's the fire rates on the weapons or the heat restrictions that are making this a problem IMHO.

The railgun hits more than hard enough and fast enough. But it can only fire three times. The fourth locks the gun for about 6 seconds. Result: dead gunnlogi.

I need to re-evaluate heavy missiles Before I comment.

Swarms: I hate them anyway.

Forge guns: need a rate of fire buff to combat tanks.

PLC: needs a rate of fire buff to combat tanks.

In my opinion, however, rate of fire buffs on the forge are tricky. Why? Dropships.

But I consider it the lesser of two evils. Any buffs to alpha will sign the death warrant on dropships no matter how I do the math.

Tebu please look at the current forge guns tab.

Please compare the double hardener, dual rep fit against the Ishukone Assault Forge Gun triple modded vs. Armor. I believe it is the second-to last table on that spreadsheet.

For the purpose of this exercise please assume the shields were already destroyed, HAV is at full armor.

The IAFG fires once every 3.25 seconds after the first shot, which takes 2.25 seconds. There's a 1 second reset delay after each shot before you can fire again, reload or sprint. This is included in my number.

My other question: since I am on my phone and I cannot verify, did you use the base swarm nimbers or did you use the table for max-skill wiki swarms with 3 damage mods vs. Armor?

I am going to decline to present my own math, because my presence in any vehicle thread seems to invariably attract a brown sea of sh*tposting that derails the topic.

This is the last time I will comment or respond to anyone in this thread.

Edit: modded wiki swarm does 2,032.93 damage base vs. Armor at level 5 every 1.35 seconds. This is raw stat math and is disputed by swarm operators. As I do not have swarms to 5 I cannot verify slower fire rates.

trying to balance tanks so it requires 2 AV gunners to fight with difficulty isn't a good thing.

one AV gunner should be able to fight a tank with difficulty. it should NOT be an impossibility.

It's not though. Using just their MAIN GUN, then yes, agreed impossible. Factor in Av nades, and proxies/remotes, that changes significantly. Especially if they beat the rep cycles. 9 seconds to apply 2750(base armor) + 1525 (5 second rep cycles healed) =4275 damage to kill the tank.

As opposed to having 9 seconds worth of healing at current. So at 9 seconds, 2750 + 2745 (1 second rep cycles healed) = 5495 damage needed to kill the tank. So with current, you need more damage at the same period of time to kill the tank, when at 5 seconds you need less overall to drop that tank.

This merely allows for burst DPS to be more effective against double reppers, as I think they should be to start with.

Each AV weapon should stand on it's own merits.

Forge guns are intended as long range strikers with high alpha and slow fire. Forcing them to be within grenade range annihilates all intended advantages of the weapon platform.

AV nades can't solo blap tanks. this is a feature, not a bug. But if all of the AV platforms are useless without them we might as well just buff the nova knives so you can two shot a tank with a charged strike.

Why should a weapon be ineffective at engaging and destroying it's intended target? Is this some kind of magical thing that adds fun by fostering a feeling of futility?

Why should HAVs enjoy immunity to infantry AV weapons unless they are used in a way the drivers find acceptable? Will the turrets on the HAVs be locked out from killing things until the driver completes the sacred ritual of boom that forces him to put himself into a bad position?

Tebu, Breakin never said that they should be expected to win a 1 on 1 engagement with their primary weapon, just that they should have a fighting chance...that with difficulty they should be able to triumph...supplementing their power with other forms of AV should help slightly...however, even with them equipped there should still be difficulty involved

Don't bother explaining. There's never going to be anything I say that won't be interpreted in the worst possible light.

It's just not worth it.

No need to go that far fella. I think it's ok for us to disagree. But it's not becoming very constructive, therefore we should stop. We have different points of view and styles apparently (I get in close and use those AV nades to kill a tank quickly, been doing that tonight to some success). Nothing wrong with that and Thaddeus and yourself make a good point.

I do still think that if you have the power on your suit, AV nades / damage mods, they should be taken into account with your main weapon base effectiveness.

That said though, this idea of mine should make a difference when a lone AV attempts to take on a tank, by giving them an ability to break the double hardened and repped fit by getting within their rep cycle. Without changing other values on AV main weapons. I think it's important to note too that It's quite easy SP wise and isk wise, to deploy AV infantry. Much easier than it is to deploy an effective tank.

And honestly, AV isn't terrible atm, values that is. I'll admit, it's not easy to take on a tank solo, but it IS possible. Just not relying solely on my main weapon to do the job, a pro tank at least. Lesser tanks though are quite easy to down running pro AV.

In any case, let's just drop the back and forth.