It's not though. Using just their MAIN GUN, then yes, agreed impossible. Factor in Av nades, and proxies/remotes, that changes significantly. Especially if they beat the rep cycles. 9 seconds to apply 2750(base armor) + 1525 (5 second rep cycles healed) =4275 damage to kill the tank.

As opposed to having 9 seconds worth of healing at current. So at 9 seconds, 2750 + 2745 (1 second rep cycles healed) = 5495 damage needed to kill the tank. So with current, you need more damage at the same period of time to kill the tank, when at 5 seconds you need less overall to drop that tank.

This merely allows for burst DPS to be more effective against double reppers, as I think they should be to start with.

Tebu, Breakin never said that they should be expected to win a 1 on 1 engagement with their primary weapon, just that they should have a fighting chance...that with difficulty they should be able to triumph...supplementing their power with other forms of AV should help slightly...however, even with them equipped there should still be difficulty involved

No need to go that far fella. I think it's ok for us to disagree. But it's not becoming very constructive, therefore we should stop. We have different points of view and styles apparently (I get in close and use those AV nades to kill a tank quickly, been doing that tonight to some success). Nothing wrong with that and Thaddeus and yourself make a good point.

I do still think that if you have the power on your suit, AV nades / damage mods, they should be taken into account with your main weapon base effectiveness.

That said though, this idea of mine should make a difference when a lone AV attempts to take on a tank, by giving them an ability to break the double hardened and repped fit by getting within their rep cycle. Without changing other values on AV main weapons. I think it's important to note too that It's quite easy SP wise and isk wise, to deploy AV infantry. Much easier than it is to deploy an effective tank.

And honestly, AV isn't terrible atm, values that is. I'll admit, it's not easy to take on a tank solo, but it IS possible. Just not relying solely on my main weapon to do the job, a pro tank at least. Lesser tanks though are quite easy to down running pro AV.

In any case, let's just drop the back and forth.

So, if we are more or less on the same page, what were we arguing about?

I know I said the main gun, for example my first SL, would be ineffective. But I also was just looking at raw base stats with no modifiers beyond those provided by skills. Damage modifiers can have a rather large impact on total damage, negating a larger portion of that hardener.

I mean we could take an AV weapon, modified by nothing but the skills, and compare that to the base hulls, modified by just the skills(What skills lol). No other fitting involved. I think it's rather obvious what happens then. The AV weapon on it's own would be far more than sufficient to finish the tank off.

So technically, when you look at just a weapon and do the same for the tank, just the tank, AV is far stronger.

Yes, I realize that. I'm starting with base damage without any modifiers to start. I'm in the process of making a spreadsheet to simulate damage in a 60 second time frame to see what happens for a single AV weapon against reps at 1, 3, and 5 second intervals. I'm interested in comparing these scenarios to see how longer heal cycles will affect the ability for an AV weapon to kill in that interval with just a weapon alone.

Not there yet, bit rusty on my spreadsheets, and keep thinking it would be MUCH easier to write a program over the sheet. Once I get my basics back in order, I'll fill in the data for damage modifiers, suit bonuses and secondary sources of AV weaponry.

From what I've seen thus far out of it though, at 5 second intervals, remaining armor is much lower at the same point in time than when reps are per second or per 3 seconds based on swarms thus far. Meaning a single AV nade(or damage mods) would make a large difference in killing the fit over shorter cycles. Swarms though are quite tricky I'm learning.

Giving leeway for reload is exactly what longer cycles does. I think longer cycles will improve the AV vs Tank interaction, by allowing for reload to get within the rep cycle at some point in time. Maybe not in the first clip with the weapon alone but in the second or third clip.

So I think that reps, or the short rep cycles, does present a bit of a problem. And by fixing that, we will see a large decline in the extreme viability of a double repped / hardened tank. It will still be a viable fit, but it won't be one that can simply continue taking damage without the use of cover against a single AV'er attempting to kill it.

Like I said, from what I've seen from my simulation now, a single swarms clip will have the armor at a much lower value at the 9 second mark, with 5 second rep cycle, over the per second rep cycle. And his with just BASE swarms and no outside damage modifier other than that from skills.

Meaning any other form of damage in that same frame of time will spell doom for this type of tank fit. Emphasize the fact that a double rep fit isn't meant to take heavy alpha like they seem to do of current.

I'll get the simulation worked out eventually, busy during the week so it will take some time. If I end up being wrong, it's fine of course, but I'm betting this would actually work out in the AV's favor against a duel repped fit. I'm not saying that this is a total fix for AV of course, but it might be an important step to getting that balance.

Reps hasnt changined with Hot fix Echo

And I would rather not see a one of this only restriction. What I do want to see, is a double repped hardened fit actually be viable without being overwhelmingly OP.

I think it's obvious hardeners need to be brought down (nerf is so negative), but it should be obvious that there is a bottom line that makes them useless (25%). I'd rather not see repairs cut, again.

But do you think that by reducing the cycles and dropping the armor hardener number down, that we might get a better balance for a double repper double hardener fit. Maybe decreasing the cycles will allow us to drop the hardener down by a lesser extent, letting burst alpha do what it's supposed to do and break the fit.

35% means two stack for roughly 58%. Currently second hardener at 66% effectiveness, totals for 66 current. Nearly a 10% gap.