I feel like the Plasma Rifle hardly has any recoil at all as is...

The tactical plasma rifle has a ton of it though even with gal assault, it still gets in the way.

Assault Suits are already the best Suits.
Dare we buff them further?

http://dust.thang.dk/market_historycategory.php
http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php

I don't see why not. If people don't want to give plasma weaponry a bonus that counters their weakness (like lasers and projectiles get...) then we might as well buff the hell out of the bonus we actually do have.

Those graphs are not all that relevant to the issue of the gal assault bonus being a bit underpowered compared to the other racial bonuses (except caldari); you have to actually play it for yourself to judge. Have you even tried a gal assault and felt the kick reduction was enough when using a tactical plasma rifle?

Not trying to be a git here but even on a scout suit the kick doesn't seem like much of an issue, although i suppose it depends on the rate at which R1 is triggered.

The thing i'd want most on the TAR is reduced falloff/increased range.

Not trying to be a git here but even on a scout suit the kick doesn't seem like much of an issue, although i suppose it depends on the rate at which R1 is triggered.

The thing i'd want most on the TAR is reduced falloff/increased range.

Those graphs are not all that relevant to the issue of the gal assault bonus being a bit underpowered compared to the other racial bonuses (except caldari); you have to actually play it for yourself to judge. Have you even tried a gal assault and felt the kick reduction was enough when using a tactical plasma rifle?

Usage rates are hugely relevant when weighing a buff. If your beef is with TAR kick, then fix the TAR kick. "Buff the GA Assault because the TAR kicks" doesn't make much sense. Nor does "Buff the TAR because the ScR"; Rattati has indicated the latter is OP.

I'm all for improving the current bonus.


Oh, by the by, IT'S CALLED THE ASSAULT RIFLE!

YOU DON'T HAVE TO YELL and it's an assault plasma rifle. Just saying assault rifles could mean one of many things:
assault combat rifle;
assault scrambler rifle;
assault rail rifle;
assault plasma rifle;
those are all assault rifles.

Assault Suits are already the best Suits.
Dare we buff them further?

http://dust.thang.dk/market_historycategory.php
http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php

Yes we do, usage statistics does not change nor refute the fact that the bonus does not have any meaningful effect, (which means that it's not working as intended), therefore arguments involving its usage are irrelevant.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO YELL and it's an assault plasma rifle. Just saying assault rifles could mean one of many things:
assault combat rifle;
assault scrambler rifle;
assault rail rifle;
assault plasma rifle;
those are all assault rifles.

Making a suit bonus for a single weapon variant is kinda dumb. Better solution would be to slightly reduce recoil on the TAR directly. Since in its own right it should be equivalent to the soon-to-be-rebalanced vanilla scram

So your comparing when tanks were op and when we scouts were op to a bonus that makes very little difference to the actual weapons it relates to...
Ok moving on.
I would enjoy a different bonus on my assault but if we increased either damage or rof it would become ridiculous.
Ammo increase would be not much better
A bonus to running reppers? The cpu and pg cost or the effectiveness of the reps. Maybe even both

Usage is always relevant. And it isn't like you to dismiss quality data, Atiim.

And it isn't like you to ignore someones counter argument.

[snip] If your beef is with TAR kick, then fix the TAR kick. "Buff the GA Assault because the TAR kicks" doesn't make much sense. Nor does "Buff the TAR because the ScR"; Rattati has indicated the latter is OP.

Decreasing the base recoil stat of the TAR would make the TAR too good compared to those with a Gal assault or an Amarr assault with a SCR. If you've tried the TAR outside of a gal assault, you would notice it's similarly effective to using a non-Amarr assault with a SCR.

The TAR can fire almost the same amount of shots of a scrambler rifle before it overheats with a someone with an Amarr assault. The Gal assault bonus should make the TAR easier to use in similar to how the amarr assault lets you able to shoot for longer periods of time. An increased recoil reduction for the gal assault would do just that.

Usage is always relevant. And it isn't like you to dismiss quality data, Atiim.

When 5 HAVs per side rolled around each-and-every match following 1.7, usage rates mattered very much to you. When Scouts accounted for over 50% of units in combat each-and-every match following 1.8, usage rates mattered very much to you. How is that suddenly "arguments involving usage are irrelevant"? If it were Tanks instead of Assaults outselling all else by nearly 2:1, you'd be allover these graphs and relentless in your demands for nerfs.

Making a suit bonus for a single weapon variant is kinda dumb. Better solution would be to slightly reduce recoil on the TAR directly.

Since in its own right it should be equivalent to the vanilla scram

Could we just make the dispersion reduction stronger?
25% isn't much when the rifle is already accurate and also has a skill that increases accuracy by 25%.

Remember, this bonus is competing against 25% higher clip size and 25% heat reduction. 25% dispersion reduction in comparison sounds lol.

The HAV/ADS usage rates weren't at all what concerned me, what concerned me was the fact that they were overpowered. If HAV usage was to skyrocket at this very moment, I'd be assessing their power to determine why they're skyrocketing and then determine whether or not action needs to be taken.

None of my arguments as to why the HAV (or any item) needed to be nerfed involved the fact that they were overused, and everything to do with the fact that they were incapable of being destroyed when operated competently (read: invulnerable) without injecting an impractical/imbalanced amount of AVers to destroy them.

Usage by itself isn't "quality data", as it doesn't display nor determine factors which actually show the power of an item. In this case it's completely irrelevant because the argument of "they are the most widely used Dropsuits" does not offer a refutation, nor rebuttal to the subject at hand.

That aside, there are currently four proven and irrefutable facts:

1. The bonuses are neither significant nor practical
2. The bonuses fail to provide a significant advantage over other roles/classes.
3. Dropsuit bonuses are intended to be both significant and practical.
4. Dropsuit bonuses are intended to provide a significant advantage over other roles/classes.

Given how my (and hopefully everyone's) goal is for all items to work as they were intended (balanced), the only rational and objective course of action would be to pursue a change to their bonus so that it meets the criteria of facts 3 and 4.

Though I must ask, if we were back before Hotfix Delta and the Caldari Scout's bonus was -5% Sniper Rifle Dispersion per Level, would you pursue a change to its bonus?

I'm all for improving the current bonus.


Oh, by the by, IT'S CALLED THE ASSAULT RIFLE!

Not at all. Read the previous post. Atiim claimed that we should ignore usage rates; I'm disagreeing. When scouts were OP, their usage rates looked alot like current Assault rates. Assaults may or may not be OP, but they certainly aren't UP. Should they gift themselves with a net gain, it will likely lead to significant imbalance.

Buffing items which aren't in need of a buff never ends well. If we intend to buff for the sake of buffing, we should bank on the likelihood of nerfs to follow. Rattati won't ignore a massive (and widening) gap in top-performer usage rates.

[Plasma Rifle usage rates are very heavily weighted because new players are using them on all their starter fits.

ITT: Scout cry that they aren't the best killy-suits anymore and that the primary slayer role has been given to Assaults, which is working as intended.

Here's a much more likely narrative:

When Scouts were OP, they proposed to nerf themselves.
Now that Assaults OP, they propose to buff themselves.

First of all, Assaults aren't OP.

"Assault are now happy that they are the primary slayers, as they should be, and they are now striving for racial balance for themselves, but definitely don't want to pass the reigns back to Scouts."

"Some scouts are buttmad that the actual role of Scouting isn't slaying, but rather, recon. They yearn for the days of shotguns controlling the battlefield to return once more, and are willing to cry for Assault nerfs to get their wish, as they believe that they should be able to outslay Assaults."

Correct; Plasma Rifle usage has always been higher than other weapons. Now compare that with Assault usage, which a few months ago was very low and is now very high (and still climbing). A similar pattern -- albeit magnified -- was observed with Scout usage rates following 1.8.

There's a clear relationship between the decline in Scout usage and the incline in Assault usage. One might look at these histories and conclude that FoTM crowd (perhaps more politely, those seeking to optimize performance) dumped the Scout and have since adopted Assault. This doesn't "prove" Assault imbalance, but it certainly doesn't bode well. As it relates to this thread, now is likely not the most opportune time to buff Assaults.

I think assault usages should probably be higher than any other suit in the first place. I agree that assaults dont need a buff in general, but thats not a reason to not fix some of the cruddier suit bonuses that some suits have.

I agree, but that is a dangerous standard. How much higher should assault usage be? 50% higher, 100% higher, 500%? Who knows?

If some of those suits with crappy bonuses happen to be top performers, then we have the very best reason available to leave them with their crappy bonuses in place. Assuming efficiency data says what Nyain San thinks it'll say, it'd be better to first balance Assaults against other classes, then buff GA/CA toward inner-class parity.

If need be, I'd recommend starting by swapping Assault speeds with Logis. Far less potential fallout than reducing slot count. Helps Logis. Ensures proper tradeoff between speed and HP.

Speed: Heavy < Commando < Assault < Logi < Scout
Hitpoints: Heavy > Commando > Assault > Logi > Scout

Don't think logis need help, and I'd rather not do a speed switch. But I'd sure like to see assault effectiveness per spawn data so we can see if gal/cal (or anyone else) is underperforming. I only have Gal Assault up to 4 and Min assault up to 5, Gal seems great so far and minmitar is good as well.

As far as balance vs. other classes I think its in a good place, except I'd like to see the scouts have buffed e-war if we can do it without making them prime time slayers again, and commandos seem a little weak overall.

I respec'd into a two Assaults today (to put my money where my mouth is ). There really isn't any noticeable difference in mobility between this GA Assault fit and the majority of my GA and CA Scout fits. It has twice the HP, comparable profile and superior scans ... and it's just as fast. I have to stick with my original opinion here in that there is not currently enough of a speed gap between Scouts and Assaults. The HP gap is huge; the speed gap should be more significant than a fraction of a meter per second (in my opinion, at least).

On the other points, 100% agree. Scouts have no business being the "go-to slayer suit", and I'd love to see Commandos get a meaningful buff.

A Gallente scout with a similar fit would move significantly faster, be 100% immune to scans (or does he need 3 for gal logi focused scans these days? nearly immune to scanning in any case), be able to hold an additional equipment including a cloak which he would get a big bonus to fitting for, and have better precision, though yes he would have horrible hp.

Example: Gallente Scout

Im with you that scouts might need a little improvement, but given how badly this game reacts to speedy suits in terms of hit detection, etc, increasing their speed might not be the right approach.