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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention
926
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Posted - 2015.02.15 21:33:00 -
[31] - Quote
duster 35000 wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:duster 35000 wrote: It's suicide because any heavy will instantly kill you, or close to it, and it takes 3 seconds or so to regen, sl goodluck hiding long enough is a heavy is nearby, and not across a hall.
If you were talking about if the changes went through, there would be a max regen speed.
It's not suicide my min scout can tank through HMG damage enough to get away with some shields still intact and it only gets 300 shields. A scout...a min scout with higher speed and smaller hitbox. Well it's not like I strafe in it...
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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duster 35000
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
266
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Posted - 2015.02.15 21:35:00 -
[32] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:duster 35000 wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:duster 35000 wrote: It's suicide because any heavy will instantly kill you, or close to it, and it takes 3 seconds or so to regen, sl goodluck hiding long enough is a heavy is nearby, and not across a hall.
If you were talking about if the changes went through, there would be a max regen speed.
It's not suicide my min scout can tank through HMG damage enough to get away with some shields still intact and it only gets 300 shields. A scout...a min scout with higher speed and smaller hitbox. Well it's not like I strafe in it... So? Smaller hitbox. a heavy with 600 shields will easily die.
I question how I could die so easily, since it takes less damage, but whatever, it's stupid. sometimes you don't die easily, alot of the time you die before you can do any damage for some reason.
Molestia approved
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Cat Merc
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
15165
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Posted - 2015.02.15 21:35:00 -
[33] - Quote
duster 35000 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:duster 35000 wrote: Actually, my speed is fine, I'm not an idiot to make my srafe speed slow. and goodluck.
Tell me what you run then. Two enhanced plates and three armor repairers? 2 complex, I tried 3 complex plates vs 3 enhanced, didn't really notice a difference so 2 complex. I kill alot with it, combat rifle because. Or assault rail rifle if I feel like it. Really I do much better with it than a pure shield tankedncal assault, nothing instakills me and I have great regen, and a hive. ... lmao You strafe 20% slower than everyone else and move around 10% slower in general. Easy target. No Assault uses complex plates anymore, even the Amarr switched to ferros.
Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan!
Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!
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duster 35000
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
266
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Posted - 2015.02.15 21:39:00 -
[34] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:duster 35000 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:duster 35000 wrote: Actually, my speed is fine, I'm not an idiot to make my srafe speed slow. and goodluck.
Tell me what you run then. Two enhanced plates and three armor repairers? 2 complex, I tried 3 complex plates vs 3 enhanced, didn't really notice a difference so 2 complex. I kill alot with it, combat rifle because. Or assault rail rifle if I feel like it. Really I do much better with it than a pure shield tankedncal assault, nothing instakills me and I have great regen, and a hive. ... lmao You strafe 20% slower than everyone else and move around 10% slower in general. Easy target. No Assault uses complex plates anymore, even the Amarr switched to ferros. Yeah, that's why I can strafe and kill juuust fine.
Wasn't the strafe penalty only 5%?
Molestia approved
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Cat Merc
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
15166
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Posted - 2015.02.15 21:42:00 -
[35] - Quote
duster 35000 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:duster 35000 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:duster 35000 wrote: Actually, my speed is fine, I'm not an idiot to make my srafe speed slow. and goodluck.
Tell me what you run then. Two enhanced plates and three armor repairers? 2 complex, I tried 3 complex plates vs 3 enhanced, didn't really notice a difference so 2 complex. I kill alot with it, combat rifle because. Or assault rail rifle if I feel like it. Really I do much better with it than a pure shield tankedncal assault, nothing instakills me and I have great regen, and a hive. ... lmao You strafe 20% slower than everyone else and move around 10% slower in general. Easy target. No Assault uses complex plates anymore, even the Amarr switched to ferros. Yeah, that's why I can strafe and kill juuust fine. Wasn't the strafe penalty only 5%? No, it's double the normal penalty. Also, your strafe is worth **** at this point, you strafe as fast as Sentinels. And no that's not even an exaggeration, I did the calculation.
Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan!
Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!
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duster 35000
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
266
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Posted - 2015.02.15 22:02:00 -
[36] - Quote
Then why do I strafe fine?
Molestia approved
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Cat Merc
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
15168
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Posted - 2015.02.15 22:42:00 -
[37] - Quote
duster 35000 wrote:Then why do I strafe fine? You can stand still and redberries won't hit you.
Try to find some real opposition and tell me just how many bullets you take to the face. If they have a combat rifle, expect to die before the second pulse of your triage hives
Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan!
Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!
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duster 35000
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
266
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Posted - 2015.02.15 22:50:00 -
[38] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:duster 35000 wrote:Then why do I strafe fine? You can stand still and redberries won't hit you. Try to find some real opposition and tell me just how many bullets you take to the face. If they have a combat rifle, expect to die before the second pulse of your triage hives I don't rely on hives ya know...I'd probably kill them first.
Molestia approved
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jordy mack
WarRavens Capital Punishment.
273
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Posted - 2015.02.16 00:03:00 -
[39] - Quote
so much **** waving...
wat about getting rid of the depleted delay a bit like the cal hvy? otherwise i can see cal scouts with rr's wrecking all from distance while regening through ranged damage
Less QQ more PewPew
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duster 35000
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
267
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Posted - 2015.02.16 00:17:00 -
[40] - Quote
jordy mack wrote:so much **** waving...
wat about getting rid of the depleted delay a bit like the cal hvy? otherwise i can see cal scouts with rr's wrecking all from distance while regening through ranged damage
This wouldn't apply to scouts, just medium, frames and a tiny bit of heavyheavy's.
Molestia approved
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DRT 99
Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State
111
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Posted - 2015.02.16 05:20:00 -
[41] - Quote
@ people complaining about cal heavies with 120 hp/s regen. Amarr heavies can have 125hp/s and approach 1500 ARMOR. With over 500 shield ontop of that if you feel like pretending youre a brick. This takes 2 people. They can also have 1200 armor at basic with the same reps.
Cal heavy with this fit would be much weaker at lower tiers, AND STILL GET F*CKED BY FLUXES.
Obviously shield recharge delays would have to be looked at, and i suppose shield regen and regen mods would have to be looked at as well.
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Cat Merc
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
15168
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Posted - 2015.02.16 13:13:00 -
[42] - Quote
DRT 99 wrote:@ people complaining about cal heavies with 120 hp/s regen. Amarr heavies can have 125hp/s and approach 1500 ARMOR. With over 500 shield ontop of that if you feel like pretending youre a brick. This takes 2 people. They can also have 1200 armor at basic with the same reps.
Cal heavy with this fit would be much weaker at lower tiers, AND STILL GET F*CKED BY FLUXES.
Obviously shield recharge delays would have to be looked at, and i suppose shield regen and regen mods would have to be looked at as well.
There's your difference buddy. It takes TWO people to achieve this kind of HP and reps, and one of them can't even fire their gun at the same time. And you can severe the repair of the Sentinel, leaving him with a puny amount of repair in comparison. What happens when TWO Cal Heavys come around the corner? Each firing their doom machines and together combine to have more HP than the Logi and Sentinel? While each repairing 123hp/s? Also, 1500 armor is impossible, it really is. The max armor you can get on an Amarr Sentinel is 1300, and that's without any repair module, so you are 100% reliant on a Logi or you die.
Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan!
Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!
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duster 35000
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
269
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Posted - 2015.02.16 13:22:00 -
[43] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:DRT 99 wrote:@ people complaining about cal heavies with 120 hp/s regen. Amarr heavies can have 125hp/s and approach 1500 ARMOR. With over 500 shield ontop of that if you feel like pretending youre a brick. This takes 2 people. They can also have 1200 armor at basic with the same reps.
Cal heavy with this fit would be much weaker at lower tiers, AND STILL GET F*CKED BY FLUXES.
Obviously shield recharge delays would have to be looked at, and i suppose shield regen and regen mods would have to be looked at as well.
There's your difference buddy. It takes TWO people to achieve this kind of HP and reps, and one of them can't even fire their gun at the same time. And you can severe the repair of the Sentinel, leaving him with a puny amount of repair in comparison. What happens when TWO Cal Heavys come around the corner? Each firing their doom machines and together combine to have more HP than the Logi and Sentinel? While each repairing 123hp/s? Also, 1500 armor is impossible, it really is. The max armor you can get on an Amarr Sentinel is 1300, and that's without any repair module, so you are 100% reliant on a Logi or you die. what happens when 2 cal sents come around the corner? The same exact thing as any 2 heavies, exept they die alot faster.
Since there is always a logi around in a good match, heavies are always repped after a fight, so cal sents only ever have an advantage is if there are no logis and the enemies don't chase you and let you regen.
1v1 cal sent will always lose if it's a good player. If there is a heavy nearby and not 30m away you can only regen one cycle, I've done it with my heavy, I laugh as they try to regen thier shields But they don't have any time.
PPS: it's proto cal heavy or go home. low hp or low regen, oh and laser tech still does near instakill damage at pro cal sent, really armor heavies have it so much better.
Molestia approved
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Cat Merc
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
15171
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Posted - 2015.02.16 14:22:00 -
[44] - Quote
duster 35000 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:DRT 99 wrote:@ people complaining about cal heavies with 120 hp/s regen. Amarr heavies can have 125hp/s and approach 1500 ARMOR. With over 500 shield ontop of that if you feel like pretending youre a brick. This takes 2 people. They can also have 1200 armor at basic with the same reps.
Cal heavy with this fit would be much weaker at lower tiers, AND STILL GET F*CKED BY FLUXES.
Obviously shield recharge delays would have to be looked at, and i suppose shield regen and regen mods would have to be looked at as well.
There's your difference buddy. It takes TWO people to achieve this kind of HP and reps, and one of them can't even fire their gun at the same time. And you can severe the repair of the Sentinel, leaving him with a puny amount of repair in comparison. What happens when TWO Cal Heavys come around the corner? Each firing their doom machines and together combine to have more HP than the Logi and Sentinel? While each repairing 123hp/s? Also, 1500 armor is impossible, it really is. The max armor you can get on an Amarr Sentinel is 1300, and that's without any repair module, so you are 100% reliant on a Logi or you die. what happens when 2 cal sents come around the corner? The same exact thing as any 2 heavies, exept they die alot faster. Since there is always a logi around in a good match, heavies are always repped after a fight, so cal sents only ever have an advantage is if there are no logis and the enemies don't chase you and let you regen. 1v1 cal sent will always lose if it's a good player. If there is a heavy nearby and not 30m away you can only regen one cycle, I've done it with my heavy, I laugh as they try to regen thier shields But they don't have any time. PPS: it's proto cal heavy or go home. low hp or low regen, oh and laser tech still does near instakill damage at pro cal sent, really armor heavies have it so much better. I'm talking with constant 123hp/s regen. They would be nearly unstoppable in the right hands.
Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan!
Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7228
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Posted - 2015.02.16 15:10:00 -
[45] - Quote
The question is whether it can be made to work and if so, how?
You can safely assume I consider 123hp/s calsent broken without the delay.
AV
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Atiim
Titans of Phoenix
15657
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Posted - 2015.02.16 15:24:00 -
[46] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:The question is whether it can be made to work and if so, how?
You can safely assume I consider 123hp/s calsent broken without the delay. We could try giving all Shielded suits a 1s delay.
That way they can regen very quickly after taking cover, but not through damage.
The 1st Matari Commando
-HAND
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duster 35000
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
269
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Posted - 2015.02.16 16:06:00 -
[47] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:duster 35000 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:DRT 99 wrote:@ people complaining about cal heavies with 120 hp/s regen. Amarr heavies can have 125hp/s and approach 1500 ARMOR. With over 500 shield ontop of that if you feel like pretending youre a brick. This takes 2 people. They can also have 1200 armor at basic with the same reps.
Cal heavy with this fit would be much weaker at lower tiers, AND STILL GET F*CKED BY FLUXES.
Obviously shield recharge delays would have to be looked at, and i suppose shield regen and regen mods would have to be looked at as well.
There's your difference buddy. It takes TWO people to achieve this kind of HP and reps, and one of them can't even fire their gun at the same time. And you can severe the repair of the Sentinel, leaving him with a puny amount of repair in comparison. What happens when TWO Cal Heavys come around the corner? Each firing their doom machines and together combine to have more HP than the Logi and Sentinel? While each repairing 123hp/s? Also, 1500 armor is impossible, it really is. The max armor you can get on an Amarr Sentinel is 1300, and that's without any repair module, so you are 100% reliant on a Logi or you die. what happens when 2 cal sents come around the corner? The same exact thing as any 2 heavies, exept they die alot faster. Since there is always a logi around in a good match, heavies are always repped after a fight, so cal sents only ever have an advantage is if there are no logis and the enemies don't chase you and let you regen. 1v1 cal sent will always lose if it's a good player. If there is a heavy nearby and not 30m away you can only regen one cycle, I've done it with my heavy, I laugh as they try to regen thier shields But they don't have any time. PPS: it's proto cal heavy or go home. low hp or low regen, oh and laser tech still does near instakill damage at pro cal sent, really armor heavies have it so much better. I'm talking with constant 123hp/s regen. They would be nearly unstoppable in the right hands. I already said the max should be 80, or med frames would be the higher one, and heavies would be lower. so no op ness.
Molestia approved
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duster 35000
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
269
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Posted - 2015.02.16 16:08:00 -
[48] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:The question is whether it can be made to work and if so, how?
You can safely assume I consider 123hp/s calsent broken without the delay. We could try giving all Shielded suits a 1s delay. That way they can regen very quickly after taking cover, but not through damage. Or just give that to a heavy.
Med frames get regen no delay, heavies get the lower regen.
Maybe lower recharge rate by 5 hp/s on med frames if it has no delays. Assuming shield suits only.
Molestia approved
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Nos Nothi
4298
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Posted - 2015.02.16 16:08:00 -
[49] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:duster 35000 wrote:Cat Merc wrote:DRT 99 wrote:@ people complaining about cal heavies with 120 hp/s regen. Amarr heavies can have 125hp/s and approach 1500 ARMOR. With over 500 shield ontop of that if you feel like pretending youre a brick. This takes 2 people. They can also have 1200 armor at basic with the same reps.
Cal heavy with this fit would be much weaker at lower tiers, AND STILL GET F*CKED BY FLUXES.
Obviously shield recharge delays would have to be looked at, and i suppose shield regen and regen mods would have to be looked at as well.
There's your difference buddy. It takes TWO people to achieve this kind of HP and reps, and one of them can't even fire their gun at the same time. And you can severe the repair of the Sentinel, leaving him with a puny amount of repair in comparison. What happens when TWO Cal Heavys come around the corner? Each firing their doom machines and together combine to have more HP than the Logi and Sentinel? While each repairing 123hp/s? Also, 1500 armor is impossible, it really is. The max armor you can get on an Amarr Sentinel is 1300, and that's without any repair module, so you are 100% reliant on a Logi or you die. what happens when 2 cal sents come around the corner? The same exact thing as any 2 heavies, exept they die alot faster. Since there is always a logi around in a good match, heavies are always repped after a fight, so cal sents only ever have an advantage is if there are no logis and the enemies don't chase you and let you regen. 1v1 cal sent will always lose if it's a good player. If there is a heavy nearby and not 30m away you can only regen one cycle, I've done it with my heavy, I laugh as they try to regen thier shields But they don't have any time. PPS: it's proto cal heavy or go home. low hp or low regen, oh and laser tech still does near instakill damage at pro cal sent, really armor heavies have it so much better. I'm talking with constant 123hp/s regen. They would be nearly unstoppable in the right hands.
Pop a Six Kin on that and quench your thirst in the rivers of tears as you strafe in and out of cover...
Well, here goes nothing!!!
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duster 35000
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
269
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Posted - 2015.02.16 16:10:00 -
[50] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:The question is whether it can be made to work and if so, how?
You can safely assume I consider 123hp/s calsent broken without the delay. We could try giving all Shielded suits a 1s delay. That way they can regen very quickly after taking cover, but not through damage. What would be the point of regulators if that were to happen exactly? I could just use 2 ferro's and a rep then.
Molestia approved
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Jathniel
Ahrendee Mercenaries
1476
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Posted - 2015.02.16 19:58:00 -
[51] - Quote
I believe the OP was asking for actual proposals gentleman... He already knows things would break without a regen delay.
It's an "intellectual exercise" asking the community to conceptualize a balance mechanism. It is NOT an attempt to promote or support null-regen delay shields. Please read the OP again. Key lines emphasized.
Breakin Stuff wrote:alright knuckleheads I'm gonna throw out a concept and we're going to break it, then see if we can put it back together in a semi-balanced way:
Shield recharge is the keystone of shield tanking.
So let's look at the reps. there's no shield transporter, and I'm willing to bet that's a ways off.
So let's look at the two recharge delay penalties. We have two, which seems redundant.
So let's assume the only recharge delay we keep is the depleted delay. Regen happens until your shields pop.
What breaks?
Can you think of a way to mitigate this?
Bear in mind the recharge penalty on extenders is a depleted delay penalty, so it doesn't affect the "Your shields are at half" delay.
Hypotheticals. We're dealing with hypotheticals.
I cannot believe how I just read 2, nearly 3, full pages of 'why shields should or shouldn't' have a recharge delay, when that's NOT what the OP asked for.
Don't be thrown off by this:
Breakin Stuff wrote: this is a mental exercise to see if the concept easily breaks under the strain of math. if it doesn't, then well we may have found the buff shields needed.
Because you already know what breaks. Just stick to solutions. SOLUTIONS.
Retired
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7232
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Posted - 2015.02.16 21:38:00 -
[52] - Quote
holy f*ck someone on this forum can READ!
FLEE WHILE YOU CAN JATHNIEL!!!
AV
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gustavo acosta
Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention
931
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Posted - 2015.02.16 21:39:00 -
[53] - Quote
I'm a cynic I don't have solutions, but I can poke holes in other people's solutions.
GimmeDatSuhWeet isk
We found a new pope to teach shield users how to shield tank, all hail pope redblood the 6th
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DRT 99
Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State
111
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Posted - 2015.02.17 03:34:00 -
[54] - Quote
i stated previously that recharge mods (including regulators) and base recharge would need looking at, definitely a change downwards for energisers/rechargers. I can agree that 123hp/s solo is excessive, even with a max recharge no buffer fit.
The only way i can see this working without is a 'regular' shield recharge rate (When you havent taken damage recently - maybe the current regular recharge delay?) and a lower 'combat' recharge rate when you have taken damage recently. This would pair with Rattati's idea for heavy and light shield extenders for dropsuits, with the current 'light' extenders having no penalty, while the new 'heavy' shield extenders cause a significant reduction in combat recharge rate (but do not affect regular recharge rate) in exchange for more HP than light extenders. The exact numbers can vary, but a heavy shield extender and a recharger should have a lower or at most equal combat recharge rate to no extender at all.
This would suit shields very nicely, and benefit them in the playstyle shields seem to have been shoehorned into and emphasizes their strength (regen) rather than mitigating their weakness (buffer) |
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