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A brief mathematical analysis of shield extenders vs damage mods

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Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 21245	Posted - 2015.01.25 17:51:00 - [1] - Quote Damnit CCP tables are hard on your forum layout. An actual essay on Damage Mods vs Shield Extenders These are the two high slot modules that are actually worth bothering with for most players, so it's normally the choice between these two for the highs unless you're a dedicated shield tank and want a recharger/energizer. Fitting requirements These assume maximum skills, which provides a notable CPU fitting reduction to damage mods. If you do not have the relevant skill maxed, damage mods will cost a fair chunk more CPU. Tier - - - - Damage mods - - Shield extenders Basic - - - - 20 CPU 3 PG - - 18 CPU 3 PG Enhanced - - - - 38 CPU 5 PG - - 36 CPU 6 PG Complex - - - - 58 CPU 9 PG - - 54 CPU 11 PG Across all tiers, damage mods use a bit more CPU than shield extenders and shield extenders use slightly more PG except at basic, where there is no difference. Differences: At basic, damage mods use 2 more CPU than shield extenders. At enhanced, damage mods use 2 more CPU than shield extenders and 1 less PG. At complex, damage mods use 4 more CPU than shield extenders and 2 less PG. Generally this is not a very large difference. In most cases, if you can fit one, you can fit the other. The exception to this is if your relevant skill isn't maxed, as then damage mods will cost significantly more CPU. TTK benefits Consider a weapon of 500 DPS. This is a fair chunk more than most proto rifles, but we'll use it as an easy base number. In a direct 1v1, which will help you more? A shield extender, or a damage mod? There are other factors, of course, so don't take this as an exact 'this will win in every circumstance over this' explanation. The answer depends on your HP level, as damage mods are % based while shield extenders are not. In terms of stacking, the outcome is universally less in favour of the damage mod as stacking increases as damage mods are stacking penalised while shield extenders are not. Using our hypothetical 500 DPS weapon, we will look at the effect of damage mods of each tier in numbers of one to three. Examples of every permutation will not be provided as this would require 27 different scenarios. Stacking penalties included. Base DPS = 500 --------------------1 damage modifier-------2 damage modifiers-------3 damage modifiers Basic-------------515------------(3%)--------528-------------(5.6%)-------537--------------(7.3%) Enhanced-------525------------(5%)--------546--------------(9.3%)-------560-------------(12.2%) Complex---------535-------------(7%)--------565-------------(13%)------585-------------(17%) You can also use this as a resource to quickly see what damage % increase stacked damage mods will give you. Let us do the same thing for shield extenders. This is easier to calculate because there are no stacking penalties, of course. -------------- 1 shield extender 2 shield extenders 3 shield extenders Basic-----------------------+36 HP----------------------- +72 HP------------------------+108 HP Enhanced---------------- +55 HP-----------------------+110 HP-----------------------+165 HP Complex-------------------+73 HP--------------- -------+146 HP-----------------------+219 HP For the purposes of this analysis, we will now pit two units against each other. One will fit shield extenders, and one will fit damage mods at a ratio of 1:1 at the same tier. Basic tier: S = shield victory D = damage victory Base HP 1 module - 2 modules - 3 modules 200 HP --- S --- S --- S 300 HP --- S --- S --- S 400 HP --- S --- S --- S 500 HP --- S --- S --- S 600 HP --- S --- S --- S 700 HP --- S --- S --- S 800 HP --- S --- S --- S ----------------------------------------Marginal difference range--------------------------------------------- 900 HP --- S --- S --- S 1000 HP --- S --- S --- S 1100 HP --- D --- S --- S 1200 HP --- D --- S --- S 1300 HP --- D --- D --- S 1400 HP --- D --- D S 1500 HP --- D --- D --- D *Vote 'Keshava' for a new Gallente vehicle name!* Gallente Guide to DUST
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 21245	Posted - 2015.01.25 17:51:00 - [2] - Quote The difference ceases to be marginal at around the 2000 base HP mark. This shows a clear trend - up until a certain point of base HP, the shield extended unit will win. Past that point the damage modded unit wins. The switchover point with for both enhanced and complex is 1100 base HP with a module count of 1. The difference begins to be marginal at 900 base HP and ceases to be marginal at 2000 base HP. In conclusion, it is generally better to fit shield extenders than damage mods up until very high base HP levels in the context of a direct 1v1. The exceptions to this are when you're using a HMG (in which case damage mods become better much earlier due to higher DPS) or when you're using a weapon with less than 500 DPS (in which case shield extenders pull ahead.) Of course, not everything is a direct 1v1. Shield extenders and damage modifiers tend to have a direct relationship in that they can be directly compared to one another quite easily. However, there are some scenarios where one is better to have than the other. Specifically, damage mods are more useful for ganking people. If you want to gank someone without retaliation, damage mods are better because your own HP does not come into the matter. Whether this be sniping or aggressive flanking, this is where damage mods have a genuine opportunity to be more useful than shield extenders. The exception to this is when you are a very low HP unit who wants to gank. At this level, the HP gains represented by a shield extender are much more lucrative than the slight increase in damage yielded by damage mods. Fairly obviously, shield extenders are better for survivability. If you're not relying on a rapid gank, these are generally superior. If you're a direct, head on combat unit these will generally be better unless you're a heavy. These are also better if you do not rely on your weapon or do not need slight increases in damage. Shield extenders are also better for 1v1s if lower DPS weapons are involved. Discuss. *Vote 'Keshava' for a new Gallente vehicle name!* Gallente Guide to DUST
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1905	Posted - 2015.01.25 18:02:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Base DPS = 500 ------------- 1 damage modifier - - 2 damage modifiers - - 3 damage modifiers Basic 515 (3%) 528 (5.6%) 537 (7.3%) Enhanced 525 (5%) 546 (9.3%) 560 (12.2%) Complex 535 (7%) 565 (13%) 585 (17%) 3 complex mods do not increase your damage by 17%. those are percentages and percentages are multiplied, not added. 3 complex mods increase the dps by ~18% ( 1,07 * 1,060837 * 1,039942 - 1 ) conclusion, 585 dps is also wrong, just like the rest of the numbers cause you have to multiply. 500 * 1.07 * 1.060837 * 1.039942 => 590,21678902789 => 590 is your dps (assuming 500 base) with 3 complex damage mods. basic math ftw there is also a big flaw in your assumptions. against AR and SCR shield extenders are alot less effective. they are also worth alot less against weaponry that outright kill you or deplete your shields in one hit.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 21245	Posted - 2015.01.25 18:03:00 - [4] - Quote I rounded down. It doesn't matter, because the scenarios are still identical. *Vote 'Keshava' for a new Gallente vehicle name!* Gallente Guide to DUST
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1905	Posted - 2015.01.25 18:10:00 - [5] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I rounded down. It doesn't matter, because the scenarios are still identical. EDIT: Yep, ran it through spreadsheet, identical results. There you go. It changes nothing. Care to comment on the subject? Wait, what did you do to my table? o_O you didnt, if you had rounded down your result would be 584 dps for 3 complex mods you simply added 7 + 6,0837 + 3,9942 together
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 21246	Posted - 2015.01.25 18:12:00 - [6] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: there is also a big flaw in your assumptions. against AR and SCR shield extenders are alot less effective. they are also worth alot less against weaponry that outright kill you or deplete your shields in one hit. The exact weapon you're using is irrelevant. This is about the general idea. If you want to quibble over exact weapon DPSes, the AR does not do 500 base DPS. Jack McReady wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I rounded down. It doesn't matter, because the scenarios are still identical. EDIT: Yep, ran it through spreadsheet, identical results. There you go. It changes nothing. Care to comment on the subject? Wait, what did you do to my table? o_O you didnt, if you had rounded down your result would be 584 dps for 3 complex mods you simply added 7 + 6,0837 + 3,9942 together Eh? No, at 17% it's 585. 500 x 1.17 is 585. In your own words, 'basic math ftw'. *Vote 'Keshava' for a new Gallente vehicle name!* Gallente Guide to DUST
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1905	Posted - 2015.01.25 18:14:00 - [7] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Jack McReady wrote: there is also a big flaw in your assumptions. against AR and SCR shield extenders are alot less effective. they are also worth alot less against weaponry that outright kill you or deplete your shields in one hit. The exact weapon you're using is irrelevant. This is about the general idea. If you want to quibble over exact weapon DPSes, the AR does not do 500 base DPS. Jack McReady wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I rounded down. It doesn't matter, because the scenarios are still identical. EDIT: Yep, ran it through spreadsheet, identical results. There you go. It changes nothing. Care to comment on the subject? Wait, what did you do to my table? o_O you didnt, if you had rounded down your result would be 584 dps for 3 complex mods you simply added 7 + 6,0837 + 3,9942 together Eh? No, at 17% it's 585. 500 x 1.17 is 585. In your own words, 'basic math ftw'. you said you rounded, there is no way your result would be 585 if you rounded since rounded the result would be 584. you added percantages thus you got 585, you failed at basic math. (unless you cant round properly ) you simply added the percantages and got 17%. 17% is not rounded. 585 is not correct, 17% is not correct, "rounded" is your poor excuse but unfortunately rounded it would still end with a different value. basic math ftw. your excuses wont help you out. also I can again repeat this again: there is also a big flaw in your assumptions, it does not take into account damage profile. against AR and SCR shield extenders are alot less effective. a combat rifle shooting at a armor heavy target will get a huge boost from a complex damage because profile bonus, proficiency bonus and damage bonus from module is multiplied together. they are also worth alot less against weaponry that outright kill you or deplete your shields in one hit.
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 2925	Posted - 2015.01.25 18:18:00 - [8] - Quote Personally I use D-mods with Sniper Rifles, Forge Guns, HMGs, Swarms and Plasma Cannons, and honestly not much else. Nice to see the numbers justify my attitude! "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 21246	Posted - 2015.01.25 18:18:00 - [9] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: [ you said you rounded, there is no way your result would be 585 if you rounded since rounded the result would be 584. you added percantages thus you got 585, you failed at basic math. No? A 17% increase to 500 yields 585. If you don't understand this, let me go over this really slowly for you. 500 divided by 100 is 1%, and equals 5. A 17% increase is 17 times 1%. 17 x 1 = 17, yes? 17 x 5 = 85. Thus, a 17% increase is 585. Not 584. I suggest before declaring someone else is wrong and that they haven't learnt basic maths, you learn basic arithmetic yourself. *Vote 'Keshava' for a new Gallente vehicle name!* Gallente Guide to DUST
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1907	Posted - 2015.01.25 18:19:00 - [10] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Jack McReady wrote: [ you said you rounded, there is no way your result would be 585 if you rounded since rounded the result would be 584. you added percantages thus you got 585, you failed at basic math. No? A 17% increase to 500 yields 585. If you don't understand this, let me go over this really slowly for you. 500 divided by 100 is 1%, and equals 5. A 17% increase is 17 times 1%. 17 x 1 = 17, yes? 17 x 5 = 85. Thus, a 17% increase is 585. Not 584. I suggest before declaring someone else is wrong and that they haven't learnt basic maths, you learn basic arithmetic yourself. are you that stupid? you said you rounded. 17% is not rounded, it is a number taken out of your stupid head because you added instead of multiplied. learn to math then come back. 17% is wrong, 585 is wrong. your whole assumption is wrong because you havent factored in damage profile or OHK. a complex damage mod can easily increase your weapons damage by 9% or more against something it is strong against like a combat rifle against armor.

Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 1403	Posted - 2015.01.25 18:23:00 - [11] - Quote I love nerd fights. I've seen more bad ideas on these forums than the US Congress over the last decade.
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 5112	Posted - 2015.01.25 19:09:00 - [12] - Quote Math... my long standing foe (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1741	Posted - 2015.01.25 20:18:00 - [13] - Quote Soldner VonKuechle wrote: I love nerd fights. Me too but watching nerd chicks mud wrestle is soooooooo much better . Glasses and all .... . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
noob cavman Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2029	Posted - 2015.01.25 20:33:00 - [14] - Quote I am confused but slightly aroused by these number's I want to be a caveman! Ccp: LEGION Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Full steam ahead into the enemies booty yarrr.
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 63	Posted - 2015.01.25 22:03:00 - [15] - Quote I'm guessing he got 17 like this 7 + 6.0837 (6.1) + 3.9942 (4.0) 7 + 4 = 11 11 + 6.1 = 17.1 (17) That's what i see Rather than rounding at the end only, rounding was done during, and at the end. :D Without rounding one's answer is 17.0779 In that sense rounding at the end would give 17.1 , not 17.0. Anyways! Are you trying to say shields should have lower fitting cost than mods? 1 or 2 pg below same CPU? Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 21272	Posted - 2015.01.25 22:15:00 - [16] - Quote Shamarskii Simon wrote: I'm guessing he got 17 like this 7 + 6.0837 (6.1) + 3.9942 (4.0) 7 + 4 = 11 11 + 6.1 = 17.1 (17) That's what i see Rather than rounding at the end only, rounding was done during, and at the end. :D Without rounding one's answer is 17.0779 In that sense rounding at the end would give 17.1 , not 17.0. Next time use 100dps for super simplicity? We all know 17% of 100 is 17 after all (as % == per cent == per one hundred. [17% = 17/100]) Just a thought. Anyways! Are you trying to say shields should have lower fitting cost than mods? 1 or 2 pg below same CPU? I'm not particularly trying to say anything. Just demonstrate when you should use shield mods and when you should use damage mods. *Vote 'Keshava' for a new Gallente vehicle name!* Gallente Guide to DUST
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 63	Posted - 2015.01.25 22:23:00 - [17] - Quote Well, if you say that, 33 shp is barely anything compared to a 3% mod... Maaaaybe in higher tiers it's a good idea. But the pg cost might force people to mod over extend (pg hungry/tight fits) I understand your pov though. Edit: 1% makes a big difference!! Over a long period of time though ^_~ Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 21275	Posted - 2015.01.25 22:34:00 - [18] - Quote This is true - in really super tight fittings, 1 or 2 PG can make a difference, and although 4 CPU is also sometimes useful on tight fits I think 2 units of PG are harder to come by than 4 units of CPU, most of the time. You're quite right that the 1% potentially makes a difference, so I re-ran the numbers through the spreadsheet with a corrected formula... But nothing really changed. Honestly, it was always going to be a marginal difference. *Vote 'Keshava' for a new Gallente vehicle name!* Gallente Guide to DUST
Ahkhomi Cypher Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 545	Posted - 2015.01.25 23:10:00 - [19] - Quote My feelings tell me that 1 damage mod and 2 shields work well on min scouts/assaults. TBD Ringleader "I should probably make better decisions huh?" that moment when thats a legit question to a friend...
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2769	Posted - 2015.01.25 23:24:00 - [20] - Quote Funny seeing people insult each other over arithmetic. IMO the comparison here is good but it doesn't really account for a lot of other factors. Taking dropsuit base stats for example, it doesn't really make sense to stack shields on a Gallente or Amarr when you consider their shield regen and regen delays are so awful. IMO if you're using Gal or Amarr Assault you should be stacking at least 2-3 damage mods with your ScR/AR/CR and just shredding people. Hybrid/brick-tanking is for people who can't aim and Logis (one in the same right? ) Follow me on Twitch.tv!

Bayeth Mal Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 2180	Posted - 2015.01.25 23:37:00 - [21] - Quote I think he (Jack) is trying to claim that damage mods stack in their multiplication. Which I believe was established long ago as not being the case and that the increase in damage is treated as a single multiplier. i.e. Each damage mod isn't calculated individually, they're tallied and then multiplied against the base damage. Which I believe is lifted directly from EVE. I remember looking into this a long time ago and if memory serves it's calculated this way: D = Base Damage P = Proficiency (if any) M = Damage Mod value (if any, is cumulative after Stacking Penalty) L = Location Modifier (e.g. Headshot) X = Damage Profile ((((DP)(M+(M0.869)+(M0.571)+(M0.283)...))L)X) = Damage output. In terms of the display readout it does a quick (LX) expressed as a percentage. Damage mods and Proficiency aren't allied in the percentage displayed. This was a long time ago though and my memory sucks so take it with a grain of salt, maybe a Dev could step in and give us the exact math. We'll bang, OK?
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 575	Posted - 2015.01.25 23:42:00 - [22] - Quote Well, exact numbers being 100% correct or just practically correct, I appreciate the work that went into this. However, Mr. McReady did make 1 good point -- how do damage profiles factor in? How much better do shield extenders become vs a combat rifle, and how much worse vs a scrambler. I would be very interested in how that breaks down.
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2770	Posted - 2015.01.25 23:59:00 - [23] - Quote I don't see what all the fuss is about. Everything in New Eden is multiplicative with the exception of individual levels of a skill (i.e. lvl 3 proficiency is just 9% and not 1.03 * 1.03 * 1.03) Damage mods would be calculated based on stacking penalties which are roughly 87% and 57% for the second and third modules, respectively. The math for calculating 3 damage mods is just: 1.07 * (1 + (0.87 * 0.07)) * (1 + (.57 * 0.07)) = 1.18 or 18% damage increase This is then multiplied times your damage profile to give respective shield/armor damage modifiers. For projectile 3x damage mods would be: .85 * 1.18 = 1.003 or 100% shield damage 1.15 * 1.18 * 1.15 (Proficiency V) = 1.56 or 156% armor damage. So your profile with a CR/SMG/HMG with 3x damage mods for shield/armor would be 100% / 156%. These values are what you multiply times your base damage to get actual damage. Headshot multiplier can be multiplied against that to give according damage. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 64	Posted - 2015.01.26 01:45:00 - [24] - Quote But, with so much of an advantage gained from damage mods, why would a non-shield user shield tank? Shield mods give them so little of an advantage (ahp is already > shp) that a dps upgrade/profile upgrade [aka damage mods] is better. If you think about it, the only way to make it better is two things: -lower fitting costs (benefits both users, also brings hp/cpu or hp/pg closer together. Lower than damage mods, not as low as plates though.) -or buff shp to extends to give it more tank, and more hp to live with. Make them half the hp of each plate grade. E.G: basic plate (85 ahp) divided by two, rounded to the nearest multiple of 5 (40 shp or 45 shp) Or Make it 40 below the basic plate, and go up 17, 16 shp for each grade. 45 basic (49.5 shp @ lvl 5) -> 12 shp buff 62 adv (68.2 shp @ lvl 5) -> 12 shp buff 78 pro (85.8 shp @ lvl 5) -> 12 shp buff ^ how do you guys feel about that? Is it too much? Will this turn more people away from damage mods? Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 21291	Posted - 2015.01.26 07:09:00 - [25] - Quote Just going to point out that although the vast majority of scenarios go in the favour of shield extenders, that's only for that specific scenario. I am not saying that 'shield is always better at this HP level', I am saying that in a direct 1v1 a shield extender is generally more useful than a damage mod. Take from that what you will. @Shamarskii - I'm not really sure how you came to the conclusion that 'damage mods provide so much of an advantage over shield extenders'. Could you explain a little more, please? @those people talking about damage profiles - Sure, that makes a difference. I can explain it to you here. A damage profile bonused against shields will increase the DPS against the extenders. This will mean that shield extenders become 10-20% less useful, relatively. However, unless 500 DPS is significantly exceeded (as in the case of the scrambler rifle) it won't change the numbers in the table much, and indeed unless you're using a proto or high proficiency AR, you won't actually reach the 500 DPS base number. On exceeding 500 DPS shields shift up the chart and more Ds appear. A damage profile bonused against armour will decrease the DPS against the extenders. This will mean that extenders become 10-20% more useful, relatively. For the most part anti-armour weapons will have less than 500 DPS anyway, so what will happen is shields will dominate the chart further. 500 DPS is a base number. If you want to apply it to your particular situation, consider the DPS values against shields. Then if they're higher, start using damage mods at lower HP levels. If they're lower, use shield extenders to higher HP levels. This really isn't a thing declaring anything super balance related, this is mostly just a chart of when to use a shield extender and when to use a damage mod. *Vote 'Keshava' for a new Gallente vehicle name!* Gallente Guide to DUST
jane stalin Ametat Security Amarr Empire 110	Posted - 2015.01.26 09:19:00 - [26] - Quote When I originally make a fit I use maths I so I pick extenders first but I actually review the results. however I have a fit that is killed by shotgunners/PLC/knifer on a particular map with tiny bit of health left a few times , I think to myself if I had a damage mod then you would have lived, an extender probably would not have saved me simple maths is great starting point but you should do experiments and you should also do things just for fun.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1911	Posted - 2015.01.26 09:40:00 - [27] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: I think he (Jack) is trying to claim that damage mods stack in their multiplication. what I am saying is that 17% is wrong, nothing else. beside that his analysis is flawed cause the base of his analysis is a random dps number taken out of the air compared to HP. this is only one aspect out of many based on some random numbers, which in my book is far away from a "mathematical" analysis. the problem here is that there are weapons that OHK, wipe your shields in one hit or are simply strong against shields thus adding a shield extender over more damage is doing pretty much nothing if your base shields arent great to begin with. his analysis also does not factor in damage profiles. everything is multiplied and thus a single complex damage mod can easily net you 9% or more damage over your base dps if you are hitting against the "element" which your weapon is strong against allowing you to finish your target faster. a damage mod also increases your damage per clip making it more likely to finish off your target. there are also plenty of ways to ensure that you get the first strike with profile damps. gank your target and do not receive damage.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 21298	Posted - 2015.01.26 12:57:00 - [28] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: beside that his analysis is flawed cause the base of his analysis is a random dps number taken out of the air compared to HP. this is only one aspect out of many based on some random numbers, which in my book is far away from a "mathematical" analysis. I do not mean this in an insulting way even when it sounds like it... Would you like to do a more exhaustive case for every single permutation? I will warn you that there are a good few thousand different permutations if you want to run the numbers for every possible TTK, millions if you decide you want to have the exact armour:shield numbers and possibilities as well. The point of doing it like this, and I will admit that it does require some intelligence on the part of the reader, is to pick a averageish DPS figure and look at how it works when you scale it. As can be inferred from the numbers, as DPS increases, the relative usefulness of damage mods increases, and as it decreases, the relative utility of shield extenders increases. If you'd like to further complain that 500 DPS isn't a sufficiently average figure, perhaps you're right! 500 DPS is wildly higher than many, many weapons, and so it slants this to show that damage mods are better than they are. That is, if you decide to deliberately misinterpret this and take your misinterpretation as gospel truth. As for you claim that you didn't mean to be insulting, that is rather difficult to believe given the content of some of your posts before they removed. But I suppose if you're prepared to be civil we can leave it there. Quote: the problem here is that there are weapons that OHK, wipe your shields in one hit or are simply strong against shields thus stacking shield extenders over more damage is doing pretty much nothing. In the case of weapons that OHKO, whether you are using a shield extender or a damage mod is in most cases entirely irrelevant. In either case, one hit will kill you. In the case of weapons which wipe your shields in one hit... Flux grenades? Those are entirely irrelevant to this discussion as they care for neither damage mods nor shield extenders. If you're talking about the SCR, this is still entirely accurate as you can simply calculate the DPS with a charge shot and look at how it scales from there. As for 'shield extenders doing pretty much nothing' because weapons exist with a 10 or 20% bonus damage against them, that is entirely hyperbole. 500 DPS is as much DPS as you will get out of a high proficiency standard plasma rifle, an anti-shield weapon, against shields. As clearly shown, shield extenders do not do 'pretty much nothing' but are in fact generally better than damage mods until you get to high HP levels. Quote: his analysis also does not factor in damage profiles. everything is multiplied and thus a single complex damage mod can easily net you 9% or more damage over your base dps if you are hitting against the "element" which your weapon is strong against allowing you to finish your target faster. Once more, you miss the point entirely. I am providing a base comparison between the utility values of damage mods and shield extenders at varying levels of base HP at a value of 500 DPS. It is up to you to scale the weapon DPS - the 500 DPS is middling value. For the umpteenth time, apply damage profiles to that DPS figure and see how it works from there. As explained numerous times by myself, you can simply multiply any of the DPS numbers on the chart to find out damage profiles. [quote] a damage mod also increases your damage per clip making it more likely to finish off your target. there are also plenty of ways to ensure that you get the first strike with profile damps or precision enhancers. gank your target and do not receive damage. /quote] As explained numerous times in the original post which you evidently didn't bother to read past finding one number that was 1% off (apparently setting you off on a determined rant) those numbers are for a 1v1 scenario. Of course there are other factors. Even you can see this. Many, many times I have said that this is for a direct 1v1. If you are so disposed to complain about my post, will you at least do me the courtesy of reading it fully first? *Vote 'Keshava' for a new Gallente vehicle name!* Gallente Guide to DUST
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1920	Posted - 2015.01.26 14:21:00 - [29] - Quote if you are going to get OHK or not, in the meantime you could aswell have dealt the maxium possible damage. I am not only talking about flux. shotguns will remove your shields instantly and get deep into your armor in one hit, nova knifes OHK, PLC splash can (depending on suit) remove your shields instantly extender or not, SCR headshots, SCR charged shots, ScrP headshots etc... heck, even a core locus can remove all your shields in a single hit against alot of suits. if you survive one of those initially you die in the next second anyway thus you might aswell do as much damage as possible in the meantime. and the anti shield weapons can, with max proficiency, increase your damage against shields by 26,5% (AR) or 38% (SCR). notice how in the case of the SCR the total bonus is 47,66% with a single complex mod, a net increase of 9,66% from your base dps. there are cases where extenders are worth in my eyes if you can fit them: a) you are on a low health suit (scout / logi) b) suits the playstyle (hmg heavy needs hp) c) you are against a weapon that is weak against shields (but the difference is marginal in this case, if you are in assault you might aswell get atleast a single damage mod as it will serve you well overall)
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 64	Posted - 2015.01.26 15:04:00 - [30] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: @Shamarskii - I'm not really sure how you came to the conclusion that 'damage mods provide so much of an advantage over shield extenders'. Could you explain a little more, please? Any, if not all weapons 2 or 1 shot shield extends. A small amount of HP doesn't compare to some damage. In that sense, higher damage output is better since the small amount of hp = about one or two rounds of added shp. Higher damage = higher chance of killing = higher chance of survival. While damage mods also cost less to fit, the hp gain is really small too. In the end, unless one is shield tanked (2/3 extends) or a shield suit, damage mods seem to be better. At complex level it's more equal Nevertheless. Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.



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