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Clone D
1296
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Posted - 2015.01.08 11:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Why are these methods frowned upon?
Here are some examples of how I used to deploy scout equipment:
Infiltration: Profile dampen scout to 14 db. Carry an R-9 uplink. Go to an enemy objective. Drop two uplinks at separate locations on the outskirts. Move in and hack everything. Set 3 REs on/around the objective. (Current total BW 17)
Shotgun hunter: Scouts make great shotgun hunters due to their speed and ewar capabilities. Carry a triage hive and an ammo hive. If I were running low on HP and ammo, in a crunch, I could drop both hives, rep and restock and quickly get back into action. (Current total BW 8).
What specifically is wrong with either of those two play styles? |
Luna McDuffing
COALICION LATINA
Smart Deploy
139
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Posted - 2015.01.08 13:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
I actually use the infiltration method you describe. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this role and is a perfect role for a scout since it can infiltrate behind enemy lines easier and faster.
To me a lot of complaints about certain characters and their supposedly role are a bunch of bull. This is war and in war the smarter guy and more resourceful guy wins period. If it was a sport game then yes there is reason to complaint because sports are made to determine who is the better athlete under very stringent rules. in war pretty much anything goes. Well, now a days there are certain rules of engagement but, if a whole planet or galaxy depended on it do you think we would be abiding by rules that would benefit the enemy? Hellz NO!!!!! To me using a character or equipment outside of it intended purpose is being ingenious not cheating. Again because it is war and not sport. It is also something that is supported historically. One guy comes up with a clever thing a better weapon or what not and the other guy finds a way to counter it. For example, some clever guy one time decided that you could camouflage a navy ship with paint. That worked great for a while giving you a visual advantage but, then someone came up with radar and render the painting obsolete. Now some people have design ships and or airplanes that are hard to detect by radar. Is that cheating? HELLZ NO!!! that is war. Why should I have to visually aim my tank cannon and estimate how to hit you where I can install a computer that does all the calculations for me and adjust for the tank movements (both enemies and my tank)? The way some people complaint in this forum we should all just go back to using muskets or maybe just sticks and stones. Then they'll complain about the type f tree used for the stick or the size of the rocks. |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6335
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Posted - 2015.01.08 13:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Infiltration: Profile dampen scout to 14 db. Carry an R-9 uplink. Go to an enemy objective. Drop two uplinks at separate locations on the outskirts. Move in and hack everything. Set 3 REs on/around the objective. (Current total BW 17) Is the RE completely necessary for this playstyle? The uplinks allow your team to begin deploying in your location. Other mercs can deploy REs if they are really necessary. Just tell your squa-nevermind this is a Clone D thread.
Clone D wrote:Shotgun hunter: Scouts make great shotgun hunters due to their speed and ewar capabilities. Carry a triage hive and an ammo hive. If I were running low on HP and ammo, in a crunch, I could drop both hives, rep and restock and quickly get back into action. (Current total BW 8) Just use an advanced or prototype scout dropsuit... not seeing a problem here.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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Clone D
1296
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Posted - 2015.01.08 13:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Infiltration: Profile dampen scout to 14 db. Carry an R-9 uplink. Go to an enemy objective. Drop two uplinks at separate locations on the outskirts. Move in and hack everything. Set 3 REs on/around the objective. (Current total BW 17) Is the RE completely necessary for this playstyle? The uplinks allow your team to begin deploying in your location. Other mercs can deploy REs if they are really necessary. Just tell your squa-nevermind this is a Clone D thread. Clone D wrote:Shotgun hunter: Scouts make great shotgun hunters due to their speed and ewar capabilities. Carry a triage hive and an ammo hive. If I were running low on HP and ammo, in a crunch, I could drop both hives, rep and restock and quickly get back into action. (Current total BW 8) Just use an advanced or prototype scout dropsuit... not seeing a problem here.
Obviously, I can figure out the work around.
What I am interested in is why we wanted these play styles to stop. |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6336
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Posted - 2015.01.08 13:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Obviously, I can figure out the work around. What I am interested in is why we wanted these play styles to stop. Well, the dual nanohive scenario you provided is still possible, so I'm not going to address it. That playstyle hasn't stopped, it just requires more ISK investment.
The uplink scenario was probably shot in the head in an effort to reduce uplink spam and give logis a bigger piece of a piece of the uplink "pie". By the way, you can still drop an uplink, you just can't drop them both, with an advanced or prototype dropsuit... the uplink scenario isn't completely dead either.
It seems like your problems could be solved by simply running higher tiered fittings. Will you only ever run standard/militia? I understand it's more ISK efficient, but simply stepping up to advanced opens up many, many possibilities.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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Clone D
1296
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Posted - 2015.01.08 13:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:The uplink scenario was probably shot in the head in an effort to reduce uplink spam and give logis a bigger piece of a piece of the uplink "pie".
Okay
Uplink spam: is the ability to deploy 2 uplinks and 3 REs really spam? Give me a number. What is spam?
Logis piece of pie: Can logis deploy uplinks elsewhere? Obivously, they weren't on location where the scout was, or the scout wouldn't need to deploy uplinks. I don't see scouts having a monopoly on uplinks if they deploy two and some REs.
Neither of those arguments make sense quantitatively or qualitatively, yet they put a screeching halt to a relative and healthy play style.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6336
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Posted - 2015.01.08 13:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Okay
Uplink spam: is the ability to deploy 2 uplinks and 3 REs really spam? Give me a number. What is spam? Spam is what happens when every merc on the battlefield can deploy 2+ uplinks quite easily and with little ISK investment involved. 2 uplinks and 3 REs is not spam. ((2 Uplinks)(3 REs)16) now that is spam.
Clone D wrote:Logis piece of pie: Can logis deploy uplinks elsewhere? Obviously, they weren't on location where the scout was, or the scout wouldn't need to deploy uplinks. I don't see scouts having a monopoly on uplinks if they deploy two and some REs. See my answer above. The problem is the ease of accessibility; any standard scout or militia light dropsuit could do similar to what you are describing and that is what lead to the excess of uplinks.
Can logis deploy uplinks elsewhere? Yes, but why would anyone use them if a cheap scout suit can do it significantly better.
CPM and CCP has confirmed that bandwidth is here to stay, no matter how many stealth bandwidth whine threads get opened. Maybe you are striking up these threads in the spirit of constructive criticism, but they are coming across as desperate.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
1557
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Posted - 2015.01.08 13:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
The Scout's class bonus is a fitting reduction to cloak; we should strive to make it worth running. Though in doing so, we should be careful to avoid making into a "slayer aid" again. Thinking improvements to shimmer.
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Clone D
1297
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Posted - 2015.01.08 14:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Okay
Uplink spam: is the ability to deploy 2 uplinks and 3 REs really spam? Give me a number. What is spam? Spam is what happens when every merc on the battlefield can deploy 2+ uplinks quite easily and with little ISK investment involved. 2 uplinks and 3 REs is not spam. ((2 Uplinks)(3 REs)16) now that is spam.
This argument is an extreme. Not everyone does it.
You could use the same argument now. If everyone spawned in as a STD Amarr Logi with 5 uplinks, then you would have 5 Uplinks X 16 = 80 uplinks which is spam. That is at a relatively low cost to the players ~15k-20k ISK.
It doesn't hold up because it doesn't describe the meta.
Ripley Riley wrote:CPM and CCP has confirmed that bandwidth is here to stay, no matter how many stealth bandwidth whine threads get opened. Maybe you are striking up these threads in the spirit of constructive criticism, but they are coming across as desperate.
There must be a transitional period to allow the meta to adjust. As stated by logis themselves, there aren't enough logis, so let's loosen up the bandwidth constraints until there are enough logis.
Killing healthy play styles: There is no reason to kill healthy play styles. It is whimsical and asserted governance. |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6336
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Posted - 2015.01.08 14:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Clone D wrote:You could use the same argument now. If everyone spawned in as a STD Amarr Logi with 5 uplinks, then you would have 5 Uplinks X 16 = 80 uplinks which is spam. That is at a relatively low cost to the players ~15k-20k ISK. Then everyone would be in a non-slayer dropsuit and the team would be at a severe disadvantage. Sure, they would have dozens of uplinks, but in a fire fight they would get put down.
In my scenario, with the standard scouts, they would still remain competitive in terms of slaying while simultaneously deploying dozens of uplinks and REs. That would mean the scout is not assisting a logi in deploying uplinks, he is replacing him AND then going on to do a damn decent job of killing people too.
... do you seriously not see a problem with that?
Clone D wrote:There must be a transitional period to allow the meta to adjust. As stated by logis themselves, there aren't enough logis, so let's loosen up the bandwidth constraints until there are enough logis.
Killing healthy play styles: There is no reason to kill healthy play styles. You are right. The standard-scout-dropsuit-slays-and-deploys-advanced-equipment playstyle isn't healthy. That's why it was killed.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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Clone D
1297
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Posted - 2015.01.08 14:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:You could use the same argument now. If everyone spawned in as a STD Amarr Logi with 5 uplinks, then you would have 5 Uplinks X 16 = 80 uplinks which is spam. That is at a relatively low cost to the players ~15k-20k ISK. Then everyone would be in a non-slayer dropsuit and the team would be at a severe disadvantage. Sure, they would have dozens of uplinks, but in a fire fight they would get put down. In my scenario, with the standard scouts, they would still remain competitive in terms of slaying while simultaneously deploying dozens of uplinks and REs. That would mean the scout is not assisting a logi in deploying uplinks, he is replacing him AND then going on to do a damn decent job of killing people too. ... do you seriously not see a problem with that? Clone D wrote:There must be a transitional period to allow the meta to adjust. As stated by logis themselves, there aren't enough logis, so let's loosen up the bandwidth constraints until there are enough logis.
Killing healthy play styles: There is no reason to kill healthy play styles. You are right. The standard-scout-dropsuit-slays-and-deploys-advanced-equipment playstyle isn't healthy. That's why it was killed
You just diverted both of those streams of argument. Neither of your above statements apply to the issues at hand as were being discussed. Try again:
1. Saying "16 scouts deploying 2 uplinks and 3 REs is spam" is an extreme because it does not apply to the current meta.
2. The current meta has not adjusted to bandwidth yet, and therefore is in a transitional period. |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6337
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Posted - 2015.01.08 14:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Clone D wrote:1. Saying "16 scouts deploying 2 uplinks and 3 REs is spam" is an extreme because it does not apply to the current meta. That is an extreme example, but it demonstrates what is possible using the scenario you put forward.
Clone D wrote:2. The current meta has not adjusted to bandwidth yet, and therefore is in a transitional period. Bandwidth has been out for over a month, and Rattati gathered feedback (and thus gave us warning) about bandwidth since 11/18/14. The meta has settled. You are the one having problems transitioning.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 14:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:1. Saying "16 scouts deploying 2 uplinks and 3 REs is spam" is an extreme because it does not apply to the current meta. That is an extreme example, but it demonstrates what is possible using the scenario you put forward.
If it is improbable, and unrelated to the meta, then please suggest a different argument concerning how a scout deploying 2 uplinks and 3 REs can cause spam. The argument "16 scouts deploying 2 uplinks and 3 REs is spam" must be nixed as being irrelevant.
Ripley Riley wrote:The meta has settled. If the meta has settled, and yet logis still claim that there are a shortage of logis, then this ABSOLUTELY needs to be addressed by loosening up the bandwidth constraints.
Ripley Riley wrote:You are the one having problems transitioning. Irrelevant personal jab, but I'll respond: As stated many times before, I am adaptable and have adjusted my various play styles to be successful in this environment. Not a problem. Is it a crime to question the methods and reasoning of the ruling body?
Ripley Riley wrote:You also have completely ignored my question about running higher tiered dropsuits. Are you refusing to run higher tiered dropsuit because that would effectively negate the two scenarios you put forward?
I run higher tiered dropsuits. Not a problem. I am well aware of how to work the system. My reasoning comes from a standpoint of practicality. Perhaps the bandwidth restrictions are a little too tight, especially seeing as how there are a shortage of logis. I am suggesting a bare minimum of 8 BW for scouts, and pushing the higher end to 17BW. This would allow scouts to continue doing scouty things while not contributing to spam in an outlandish way.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
6341
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Posted - 2015.01.08 15:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
I will leave you with this...
Bandwidth, in its current state, is working as intended. That might mean some of your previous playstyles won't function as well as they used to in terms of ISK efficiency and WP/death. This was almost assuredly done on purpose, as the previous bandwidth-less Dust Uprising was not healthy and allowed other roles to eclipse the logi, at least in terms of deployable equipment.
So many of your issues can be traced back to either using lower tiered fittings or running solo...
Lower tiered fittings are meant to have fewer resources; less CPU, PG, slots, and yes, bandwidth. This is also was done intentionally. You may have to use advanced or prototype dropsuits to deploy more equipment, just the same as you may have to run advanced or prototype dropsuits to fit more/better modules.
You know why you should run in a squad already. You know why soloing is not a smart decision. I don't have to tell you again.
As someone else said in a previous thread of yours, you are beyond help  You cannot be shown reason. I will let someone else bump your bandwidth threads from now on.
Just call me Ripple. Ripple Riley.
@Ripley_Riley
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Mister Goo
Random Gunz
RISE of LEGION
139
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Posted - 2015.01.08 15:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Why are these methods frowned upon?
Here are some examples of how I used to deploy scout equipment:
Infiltration: Profile dampen scout to 14 db. Carry an R-9 uplink. Go to an enemy objective. Drop two uplinks at separate locations on the outskirts. Move in and hack everything. Set 3 REs on/around the objective. (Current total BW 17)
Shotgun hunter: Scouts make great shotgun hunters due to their speed and ewar capabilities. Carry a triage hive and an ammo hive. If I were running low on HP and ammo, in a crunch, I could drop both hives, rep and restock and quickly get back into action. (Current total BW 8)
What specifically is wrong with either of those two play styles?
to answer your question NOTHING
I agree that bandwidth on RE's is entirely to high. But for most people it doesn't matter because they are used as super grenades instead of traps.
Bandwidth is a pain period.
Solo omni soldiers such as yourself are the ones who are effected the most by it and I understand your raging at the change. This is a team oriented game, no matter how much solo you play, and you have to accept that aspect of it.
Raging at the bandwidth restrictions placed on you is counterproductive when you blame the other roles and not CCP. This is the second thread you put up today that I have read and they basically say the same thing. Although this one is not quite so ignorant.
BANDWIDTH SUCKS
Closed Beta Vet
Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
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Breakin Stuff
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
6201
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Posted - 2015.01.08 15:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
The logi numbers problem will settle itself if the suit is made less squishy. Which is, to my knowledge, on the table.
Active support play is wildly unpopular.
If you want to have lots of equipment on the field then play a logi and quit complaining that they are now under-represented now that the tourist toilet was flushed.
As logis become more critical and in demand more players will skill in and use them.
A lot of old logis quit the role entirely because anything they could do assaults or scouts could do better.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5073
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Posted - 2015.01.08 15:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
We get it. You want to keep running your scout do everything light assault suit that makes everyone else obsolete. Scout 514 FTW.
But, I'm just gonna focus on this statement, because it makes nonsense.
Clone D wrote:
[quote=Ripley Riley]The meta has settled.
If the meta has settled, and yet logis still claim that there are a shortage of logis, then this ABSOLUTELY needs to be addressed by loosening up the bandwidth constraints.[/quote}
If you loosen the constraints, allowing non-logistics suits to use a lot of EQ again, by what possible logic or reason would that result in more people becoming logis?
There's absolutely no way that would be the result. You can't possibly be suggesting that some fundamental shift has happened, and despite ample historical data, the Dust playerbase needs significantly more than a month to adjust to a change in the meta? Especially since unlimited on-demand respecs are now a thing.
Honestly, I'm not even sure which is more preposterous, the sudden inability of people to adjust, or that a "transitional period" which means they dont have to adjust, would get them to do it.
Seriously, just stop. It's getting sad. If you want to advocate for lower BW for RE's or something, go for it. But the QQ about your scout suit not being able to do everything by itself is tiresome
/thread.
(The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
1562
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Posted - 2015.01.08 15:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'm with Demonsbane. The Scout was not given 2 EQ slots to fill the role of Logi Lite. |
Breakin Stuff
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
6207
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Posted - 2015.01.08 15:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:I'm with Demonsbane. The Scout was not given 2 EQ slots to fill the role of Logi Lite.
I think this sums up the intent succinctly.
NOW /thread.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 15:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Clone D wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:The meta has settled. If the meta has settled, and yet logis still claim that there are a shortage of logis, then this ABSOLUTELY needs to be addressed by loosening up the bandwidth constraints. If you loosen the constraints, allowing non-logistics suits to use a lot of EQ again, by what possible logic or reason would that result in more people becoming logis?
If you are stating that the meta has settled, and logis also state that there aren't enough logis, then that implies one of two things:
EITHER
1. the meta has not settled, and more people will soon spec into logi, in which case we are in a transitional period.
OR
2. the meta has settled, and as many people that will spec into logi have already done so, and we are left with the logis saying that there are not enough logis, resulting in the fact that there will never be enough logis, and every other role needs to lend a helping hand to the support role.
John Demonsbane wrote:Seriously, just stop. It's getting sad. If you want to advocate for lower BW for RE's or something, go for it. But the QQ about your scout suit not being able to do everything by itself is tiresome
I play all roles. I don't have any qq. I have questions concerning the design and why some parts of the game are being pruned.
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Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 15:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mister Goo wrote:Raging at the bandwidth restrictions placed on you is counterproductive when you blame the other roles and not CCP. This is the second thread you put up today that I have read and they basically say the same thing. Although this one is not quite so ignorant.
I address problems from different angles and attempt to compartmentalize issues to prevent argusplatter. Sometimes I use extreme language, insinuations or abrasive opinions in order to draw in more responses. I have found that a well stated, polite position often disappears into the void, unrecognized, unread and unloved.
It is usually the members of the community that force my specific arguments into their funnel of generalization, making all threads sound the same. |
Kaze Eyrou
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1610
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Posted - 2015.01.08 15:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
Clone D wrote:...and yet logis still claim that there are a shortage of logis...
When was this ever stated?
Breakin Stuff wrote:The logi numbers problem will settle itself if the suit is made less squishy. Which is, to my knowledge, on the table.
Active support play is wildly unpopular.
If you want to have lots of equipment on the field then play a logi and quit complaining that they are now under-represented now that the tourist toilet was flushed.
As logis become more critical and in demand more players will skill in and use them.
A lot of old logis quit the role entirely because anything they could do assaults or scouts could do better.
I disagree with the claim that support game play is "widely unpopular". I see many people who come into the game finding out about the support playstyle and actively asking about it on Rookie Training Grounds. Many admit their gungame and 1v1 skills aren't that great and vouch to support their team in other ways.
I've been a Logi since the Uprising respec, and recently skilled into all the racial Logis as well as a couple of other roles. Those roles are very much situational, but I will still continue to use my Logistics suits in battle because support play is my favorite role in the battle. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I've been a Logi and I'm still a Logi and I'm still around. All those other "Logis" you mentioned were either posers and/or Slayer Logis whose era of slaying was up when Logistics became more and more of a supportive role.
CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou
Kaze's Helpful Links
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5075
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Posted - 2015.01.08 15:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Clone D wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:Clone D wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:The meta has settled. If the meta has settled, and yet logis still claim that there are a shortage of logis, then this ABSOLUTELY needs to be addressed by loosening up the bandwidth constraints. If you loosen the constraints, allowing non-logistics suits to use a lot of EQ again, by what possible logic or reason would that result in more people becoming logis? If you are stating that the meta has settled, and logis also state that there aren't enough logis, then that implies one of two things: EITHER 1. the meta has not settled, and more people will soon spec into logi once they get tired of running out of ammo or spawning from the redline. OR 2. Logi suits are in desperate need of a revamp.
FTFY. More importantly, I'll restate my actual point: In none of these scenarios would giving scout suits more BW result in a proliferation of logis.
(Also: Would not happen in any other possible scenario that does not involve living on Bizarro world.).
(The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
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Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 16:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:More importantly, I'll restate my actual point: In none of these scenarios would giving scout suits more BW result in a proliferation of logis.
(Also: Would not happen in any other possible scenario that does not involve living on Bizarro world.).
That is the problem. You are bent in making more people do what they obviously don't want to do: play logi. There is a natural balance, and bw is offsetting the player base by attempting to shift more people into the logi role, whereas the players don't want to perform that role and you end up with all red letters and no friendly uplinks because there is no role transference, which essentially is agreed upon by the community, that all roles support each other, hence we all need a little spare bw to give a buffer between the role we want to play and the tad bit of team support that each person must contribute in order to run a successful team.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5075
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Posted - 2015.01.08 16:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kaze Eyrou wrote:Clone D wrote:...and yet logis still claim that there are a shortage of logis... When was this ever stated? Breakin Stuff wrote:The logi numbers problem will settle itself if the suit is made less squishy. Which is, to my knowledge, on the table.
Active support play is wildly unpopular.
If you want to have lots of equipment on the field then play a logi and quit complaining that they are now under-represented now that the tourist toilet was flushed.
As logis become more critical and in demand more players will skill in and use them.
A lot of old logis quit the role entirely because anything they could do assaults or scouts could do better. I disagree with the claim that support game play is "widely unpopular". I see many people who come into the game finding out about the support playstyle and actively asking about it on Rookie Training Grounds. Many admit their gungame and 1v1 skills aren't that great and vouch to support their team in other ways. I've been a Logi since the Uprising respec, and recently skilled into all the racial Logis as well as a couple of other roles. Those roles are very much situational, but I will still continue to use my Logistics suits in battle because support play is my favorite role in the battle. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I've been a Logi and I'm still a Logi and I'm still around. All those other "Logis" you mentioned were either posers and/or Slayer Logis whose era of slaying was up when Logistics became more and more of a supportive role.
I agree to an extent. Yes, a lot of the old early uprising logis were not really logis. Just FoTM chasers.
But, I maintain that the major problem is still the limitations of the suits themselves. Even with BW there is enough incentive to use other suits that people would probably prefer having fewer uplinks than running a suit that has the awesome combination of being squishy/less effective in combat while also being more expensive (in terms of both SP and ISK).
(The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
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Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 16:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:I like to dirty sanchez myself and shove a pickle in my pooper while fondling my flute.
I was just seeing if you can make it look like somebody said something that they really didn't say.
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Breakin Stuff
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
6208
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Posted - 2015.01.08 16:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
Clone D wrote:look guys I've discovered a trick that's been in use since the beta test doors first opened! I R SMRT
Confirming that you have successfully learned a new trick.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 16:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Clone D wrote:look guys I've discovered a trick that's been in use since the beta test doors first opened! I R SMRT
Confirming that you have successfully learned a new trick.
Bane did a FTFY in order to avoid actually following an argument to conclusion. I was simply responding to the gimpiness.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5077
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Posted - 2015.01.08 17:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Clone D wrote:
That is the problem. You are bent on making more people do what they obviously don't want to do: play logi. There is a natural balance, and bw is offsetting the player base by attempting to shift more people into the logi role, whereas the players don't want to perform that role and you end up with all red letters and no friendly uplinks because there is no role transference, which essentially is agreed upon by the community, that all roles support each other, hence we all need a little spare bw to give a buffer between the role we want to play and the tad bit of team support that each person must contribute in order to run a successful team.
One, see my response above about the logi suits themselves.
Two, I'm absolutely not interested in forcing people to play logi. Quite the opposite.
I'm going to take your advice and use some extreme language and abrasive opinion to make my point more clear (wall of text incoming), so fair warning that I'm going to be less civilized than usual: Get the f*ck out of my role!
What I AM bent on is getting rewarded again for doing what I've always done, which is tactical support and map control.
I used to be pretty damn good at it too, until every map turned into a massive blue sea of sh!t uplinks dropped by f*cking EQ spam logi tourists who crapped them out in the middle of the road or some tailor-made-for-spawn-camping dead end (facing the damn corner, no less) on their way to the supply depot so they could switch into their l33t cloaked shotty scout or HMG sentinel (complete with fatty taxi).
Or before doucheb@gs would spawn on the expertly placed Amarr-bonused uplink I expended a ton of effort (and possibly died) trying to place and then put not one, but TWO of their mlt uplinks literally right on top of mine, which provides no tactical advantage and for which there is no purpose other than to steal my WP because anything that would destroy my uplink would get theirs too. They deserve a special place in hell.
I'm bent on stopping these f*cks from taking my role away from me.
I'm bent on getting paid for all the time, effort, SP, and ISK I've put in to uplinks, Amarr logi suits, situational fittings, learning the maps, finding the best spots, constantly watching the map, and developing ways to counter the possible tactics of the other team by always having places to spawn which allow a rally point for a counter-attack, reinforcement of failing lines, etc.
That alone would not uncommonly turn the tide of battles and I would be rightly rewarded with over a thousand WP from uplinks alone in tight matches. That may sound like a lot, but remember, I devoted the majority of my time making sure we always had uplinks and studying the map and enemy movement. Back then I could look at the map and actually tell which uplinks were mine
Running around shooting things on the same 4 maps and the same 3 game modes over and over and over bored me to tears; this was the thing that kept me interested in Dust, the intellectual challenge of countering the enemy without needing to be the FC. Or even in a highly organized squad.
The logi tourist a-holes and self-proclaimed "Solo omni super soldiers" took that away from me. The game got old even faster and I've hardly played for months because of it. Oh, but how selfish of me! How dare I want to be able to enjoy and be more effective at my primary specialty than someone in a completely different one!
So...
TL;DR:Oh, I'm sorry, did BW make it slightly harder to do #4 on the list of roles you "play", the one you don't like enough to actually specialize in but manage to do on the side? The one I love but couldn't do anymore because you ruined it by doing that? Here, let me get you a tissue...
(The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5078
|
Posted - 2015.01.08 17:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Clone D wrote:look guys I've discovered a trick that's been in use since the beta test doors first opened! I R SMRT
Confirming that you have successfully learned a new trick. Bane did a FTFY in order to avoid actually following an argument to conclusion. I was simply responding to the gimpiness.
And most eloquently, at that. (Pro tip: It's not misrepresentation of your statement if clearly labeled as edited by the person quoting it..)
Your argument was flawed and the solution completely unrelated to the problem it allegedly aimed to address. I didn't need to follow it any further.
(The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
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Clone D
1298
|
Posted - 2015.01.08 17:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:I'm bent on stopping these f*cks from taking my role away from me.
[...]
Running around shooting things on the same 4 maps and the same 3 game modes over and over and over bored me to tears; this was the thing that kept me interested in Dust, the intellectual challenge of countering the enemy without needing to be the FC. Or even in a highly organized squad.
These are reasonable concerns, and I'm glad you are seeking intellectual challenge.
However, if tourist logis were setting uplinks in the middle of the roads, then why didn't you put your uplinks in a more desirable position so that people would opt to use your uplinks instead of the tourist logi uplinks?
There's no reason to put a hamper on everyone else's play style because you were upset. Just figure out a way to play your role smarter and better. I did. |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
5080
|
Posted - 2015.01.08 17:54:00 -
[32] - Quote
Clone D wrote:
These are reasonable concerns, and I'm glad you are seeking intellectual challenge.
However, if tourist logis were setting uplinks in the middle of the roads, then why didn't you put your uplinks in a more desirable position so that people would opt to use your uplinks instead of the tourist logi uplinks?
I did. They still get lost in the sea of blue on the map, hampering both my ability to replace them and for others to figure out the "best" one to use... it's unecessarily diffcult to see where an uplink is in 3 dimensions on the respawn screen.
Clone D wrote: There's no reason to put a hamper on everyone else's play style because you were upset. .
lolwut? Pot call kettle black much? First off, MY playstyle was the one being marginalized for nearly a year. Nobody's stopping anyone from using EQ, you just need to use a logi suit to gain maximal efficacy. Don't waste everyone's time trying to make logis look like the selfish ones, that is an argument you can't possibly win anywhere but in your own mind.
Second, upset vs unable to perform my preferred role are not the same things. I have a life, and don't need to be on the top of the leaderboard so I can wave my epeen. Loss of WP is annoying but hardly a deal-breaker... No longer enjoying the game because of this was.
Clone D wrote: Just figure out a way to play your role smarter and better. I did
But you can't now because....?
(The godfather of tactical logisticsGäó)
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DDx77
The Exemplars
RISE of LEGION
72
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Posted - 2015.01.08 18:06:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nothing wrong with those play styles
The answer is that CCP , logi, and players in general noticed nano spam and uplink spam all over the maps and at supply depots.
Bandwidth is their way of telling us we were doing it wrong I guess.
A lot of people defending BW here, but how effective has it been?
I personally don't like BW. spamming nanohives and uplinks still happens
Ive seen an increase in one sided matches since 1.10
matches are slightly boring and limited as I now have less options to work with
( ie: I've stopped using proxies and nanohives on my fits as it is much more efficient to keep uplinks alive)
& Proxy mines and re's should not have bandwidth
It must also be Confusing and convoluted to new players
So it's "working as intended" but it's kinda dumb since I'm still able to tourist logi even with the limitations BW imposed
( I can rep, use needles, and use uplinks)
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Flint Beastgood III
Carbon 7
Iron Oxide.
1238
|
Posted - 2015.01.08 20:08:00 -
[34] - Quote
Damn you Ripley! Stop making so many likable posts, lol.
*stops reading thread*
Skills - https://www.facebook.com/notes/flint-beastgood-iii/list-of-trained-skills/416505058477164
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Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 20:27:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:I will leave you with this... Bandwidth, in its current state, is working as intended. That might mean some of your previous playstyles won't function as well as they used to in terms of ISK efficiency and WP/death. This was almost assuredly done on purpose, as the previous bandwidth-less Dust Uprising was not healthy and allowed other roles to eclipse the logi, at least in terms of deployable equipment. So many of your issues can be traced back to either using lower tiered fittings or running solo... Lower tiered fittings are meant to have fewer resources; less CPU, PG, slots, and yes, bandwidth. This is also was done intentionally. You may have to use advanced or prototype dropsuits to deploy more equipment, just the same as you may have to run advanced or prototype dropsuits to fit more/better modules. You know why you should run in a squad already. You know why soloing is not a smart decision. I don't have to tell you again. As someone else said in a previous thread of yours, you are beyond help You cannot be shown reason. I will let someone else bump your bandwidth threads from now on.
We have addressed all of this before and you have shown that you cannot enter a debate without using circular arguments. Repetition does not constitute continuing an argument thoroughly. You are the brick wall, while I am willing to walk forward and create new syllogisms, for the sake of reason and curiosity, not a personal agenda.
You fail to engage the idea of "margin of supporting contribution", and show that your personal standards are much more important to you than reason, reality or practicality.
You fail to think globally, holistically or from any perspective outside of your little "I am right" shell.
When you're ready to finish the debate, I'll be waiting. |
Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1449
|
Posted - 2015.01.08 21:12:00 -
[36] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Infiltration: Profile dampen scout to 14 db. Carry an R-9 uplink. Go to an enemy objective. Drop two uplinks at separate locations on the outskirts. Move in and hack everything. Set 3 REs on/around the objective. (Current total BW 17) Is the RE completely necessary for this playstyle? The uplinks allow your team to begin deploying in your location. Other mercs can deploy REs if they are really necessary. Just tell your squa-nevermind this is a Clone D thread. Clone D wrote:Shotgun hunter: Scouts make great shotgun hunters due to their speed and ewar capabilities. Carry a triage hive and an ammo hive. If I were running low on HP and ammo, in a crunch, I could drop both hives, rep and restock and quickly get back into action. (Current total BW 8) Just use an advanced or prototype scout dropsuit... not seeing a problem here.
Yep. Proto buffed. Squad buffed. What is the biggest problem in this game? Protosquads stomping the crap out of the other team and CCP decides to help them do it better.
Because, that's why.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
715
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Posted - 2015.01.08 21:39:00 -
[37] - Quote
OmniLogiBWHater in the thread says:
LOL
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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Breakin Stuff
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
6232
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Posted - 2015.01.08 22:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:I will leave you with this... Bandwidth, in its current state, is working as intended. That might mean some of your previous playstyles won't function as well as they used to in terms of ISK efficiency and WP/death. This was almost assuredly done on purpose, as the previous bandwidth-less Dust Uprising was not healthy and allowed other roles to eclipse the logi, at least in terms of deployable equipment. So many of your issues can be traced back to either using lower tiered fittings or running solo... Lower tiered fittings are meant to have fewer resources; less CPU, PG, slots, and yes, bandwidth. This is also was done intentionally. You may have to use advanced or prototype dropsuits to deploy more equipment, just the same as you may have to run advanced or prototype dropsuits to fit more/better modules. You know why you should run in a squad already. You know why soloing is not a smart decision. I don't have to tell you again. As someone else said in a previous thread of yours, you are beyond help You cannot be shown reason. I will let someone else bump your bandwidth threads from now on. We have addressed all of this before and you have shown that you cannot enter a debate without using circular arguments. Repetition does not constitute continuing an argument thoroughly. You are the brick wall, while I am willing to walk forward and create new syllogisms, for the sake of reason and curiosity, not a personal agenda. You fail to engage the idea of "margin of supporting contribution", and show that your personal standards are much more important to you than reason, reality or practicality. You fail to think globally, holistically or from any perspective outside of your little "I am right" shell. When you're ready to finish the debate, I'll be waiting.
the only result you'll accept as valid is the one where people agree with you.
this game is what, three years old on the DUST forums now?
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 22:41:00 -
[39] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Clone D wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:I will leave you with this... Bandwidth, in its current state, is working as intended. That might mean some of your previous playstyles won't function as well as they used to in terms of ISK efficiency and WP/death. This was almost assuredly done on purpose, as the previous bandwidth-less Dust Uprising was not healthy and allowed other roles to eclipse the logi, at least in terms of deployable equipment. So many of your issues can be traced back to either using lower tiered fittings or running solo... Lower tiered fittings are meant to have fewer resources; less CPU, PG, slots, and yes, bandwidth. This is also was done intentionally. You may have to use advanced or prototype dropsuits to deploy more equipment, just the same as you may have to run advanced or prototype dropsuits to fit more/better modules. You know why you should run in a squad already. You know why soloing is not a smart decision. I don't have to tell you again. As someone else said in a previous thread of yours, you are beyond help You cannot be shown reason. I will let someone else bump your bandwidth threads from now on. We have addressed all of this before and you have shown that you cannot enter a debate without using circular arguments. Repetition does not constitute continuing an argument thoroughly. You are the brick wall, while I am willing to walk forward and create new syllogisms, for the sake of reason and curiosity, not a personal agenda. You fail to engage the idea of "margin of supporting contribution", and show that your personal standards are much more important to you than reason, reality or practicality. You fail to think globally, holistically or from any perspective outside of your little "I am right" shell. When you're ready to finish the debate, I'll be waiting. the only result you'll accept as valid is the one where people agree with you. this game is what, three years old on the DUST forums now?
Well you just turned that one around, didn't you. No, I am saying that I want a conversation that continues to the end, not one where my opponent simply says "I'm right and that's how it's gonna be." and then they discontinue the dialog. |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
1884
|
Posted - 2015.01.09 01:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Why are these methods frowned upon?
Here are some examples of how I used to deploy scout equipment:
Infiltration: Profile dampen scout to 14 db. Carry an R-9 uplink. Go to an enemy objective. Drop two uplinks at separate locations on the outskirts. Move in and hack everything. Set 3 REs on/around the objective. (Current total BW 17)
Shotgun hunter: Scouts make great shotgun hunters due to their speed and ewar capabilities. Carry a triage hive and an ammo hive. If I were running low on HP and ammo, in a crunch, I could drop both hives, rep and restock and quickly get back into action. (Current total BW 8)
What specifically is wrong with either of those two play styles?
where is the cloak. the 2nd slot was for a cloak. if you want to not fit a cloak thats ok but suffer the consequence of not having enough BW for the equipment you do fit.
All Hail Legion
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