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Clone D
1296
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Posted - 2015.01.08 11:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Why are these methods frowned upon?
Here are some examples of how I used to deploy scout equipment:
Infiltration: Profile dampen scout to 14 db. Carry an R-9 uplink. Go to an enemy objective. Drop two uplinks at separate locations on the outskirts. Move in and hack everything. Set 3 REs on/around the objective. (Current total BW 17)
Shotgun hunter: Scouts make great shotgun hunters due to their speed and ewar capabilities. Carry a triage hive and an ammo hive. If I were running low on HP and ammo, in a crunch, I could drop both hives, rep and restock and quickly get back into action. (Current total BW 8).
What specifically is wrong with either of those two play styles? |
Clone D
1296
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Posted - 2015.01.08 13:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Infiltration: Profile dampen scout to 14 db. Carry an R-9 uplink. Go to an enemy objective. Drop two uplinks at separate locations on the outskirts. Move in and hack everything. Set 3 REs on/around the objective. (Current total BW 17) Is the RE completely necessary for this playstyle? The uplinks allow your team to begin deploying in your location. Other mercs can deploy REs if they are really necessary. Just tell your squa-nevermind this is a Clone D thread. Clone D wrote:Shotgun hunter: Scouts make great shotgun hunters due to their speed and ewar capabilities. Carry a triage hive and an ammo hive. If I were running low on HP and ammo, in a crunch, I could drop both hives, rep and restock and quickly get back into action. (Current total BW 8) Just use an advanced or prototype scout dropsuit... not seeing a problem here.
Obviously, I can figure out the work around.
What I am interested in is why we wanted these play styles to stop. |
Clone D
1296
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Posted - 2015.01.08 13:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:The uplink scenario was probably shot in the head in an effort to reduce uplink spam and give logis a bigger piece of a piece of the uplink "pie".
Okay
Uplink spam: is the ability to deploy 2 uplinks and 3 REs really spam? Give me a number. What is spam?
Logis piece of pie: Can logis deploy uplinks elsewhere? Obivously, they weren't on location where the scout was, or the scout wouldn't need to deploy uplinks. I don't see scouts having a monopoly on uplinks if they deploy two and some REs.
Neither of those arguments make sense quantitatively or qualitatively, yet they put a screeching halt to a relative and healthy play style.
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Clone D
1297
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Posted - 2015.01.08 14:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:Okay
Uplink spam: is the ability to deploy 2 uplinks and 3 REs really spam? Give me a number. What is spam? Spam is what happens when every merc on the battlefield can deploy 2+ uplinks quite easily and with little ISK investment involved. 2 uplinks and 3 REs is not spam. ((2 Uplinks)(3 REs)16) now that is spam.
This argument is an extreme. Not everyone does it.
You could use the same argument now. If everyone spawned in as a STD Amarr Logi with 5 uplinks, then you would have 5 Uplinks X 16 = 80 uplinks which is spam. That is at a relatively low cost to the players ~15k-20k ISK.
It doesn't hold up because it doesn't describe the meta.
Ripley Riley wrote:CPM and CCP has confirmed that bandwidth is here to stay, no matter how many stealth bandwidth whine threads get opened. Maybe you are striking up these threads in the spirit of constructive criticism, but they are coming across as desperate.
There must be a transitional period to allow the meta to adjust. As stated by logis themselves, there aren't enough logis, so let's loosen up the bandwidth constraints until there are enough logis.
Killing healthy play styles: There is no reason to kill healthy play styles. It is whimsical and asserted governance. |
Clone D
1297
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Posted - 2015.01.08 14:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:You could use the same argument now. If everyone spawned in as a STD Amarr Logi with 5 uplinks, then you would have 5 Uplinks X 16 = 80 uplinks which is spam. That is at a relatively low cost to the players ~15k-20k ISK. Then everyone would be in a non-slayer dropsuit and the team would be at a severe disadvantage. Sure, they would have dozens of uplinks, but in a fire fight they would get put down. In my scenario, with the standard scouts, they would still remain competitive in terms of slaying while simultaneously deploying dozens of uplinks and REs. That would mean the scout is not assisting a logi in deploying uplinks, he is replacing him AND then going on to do a damn decent job of killing people too. ... do you seriously not see a problem with that? Clone D wrote:There must be a transitional period to allow the meta to adjust. As stated by logis themselves, there aren't enough logis, so let's loosen up the bandwidth constraints until there are enough logis.
Killing healthy play styles: There is no reason to kill healthy play styles. You are right. The standard-scout-dropsuit-slays-and-deploys-advanced-equipment playstyle isn't healthy. That's why it was killed
You just diverted both of those streams of argument. Neither of your above statements apply to the issues at hand as were being discussed. Try again:
1. Saying "16 scouts deploying 2 uplinks and 3 REs is spam" is an extreme because it does not apply to the current meta.
2. The current meta has not adjusted to bandwidth yet, and therefore is in a transitional period. |
Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 14:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Clone D wrote:1. Saying "16 scouts deploying 2 uplinks and 3 REs is spam" is an extreme because it does not apply to the current meta. That is an extreme example, but it demonstrates what is possible using the scenario you put forward.
If it is improbable, and unrelated to the meta, then please suggest a different argument concerning how a scout deploying 2 uplinks and 3 REs can cause spam. The argument "16 scouts deploying 2 uplinks and 3 REs is spam" must be nixed as being irrelevant.
Ripley Riley wrote:The meta has settled. If the meta has settled, and yet logis still claim that there are a shortage of logis, then this ABSOLUTELY needs to be addressed by loosening up the bandwidth constraints.
Ripley Riley wrote:You are the one having problems transitioning. Irrelevant personal jab, but I'll respond: As stated many times before, I am adaptable and have adjusted my various play styles to be successful in this environment. Not a problem. Is it a crime to question the methods and reasoning of the ruling body?
Ripley Riley wrote:You also have completely ignored my question about running higher tiered dropsuits. Are you refusing to run higher tiered dropsuit because that would effectively negate the two scenarios you put forward?
I run higher tiered dropsuits. Not a problem. I am well aware of how to work the system. My reasoning comes from a standpoint of practicality. Perhaps the bandwidth restrictions are a little too tight, especially seeing as how there are a shortage of logis. I am suggesting a bare minimum of 8 BW for scouts, and pushing the higher end to 17BW. This would allow scouts to continue doing scouty things while not contributing to spam in an outlandish way.
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Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 15:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Clone D wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:The meta has settled. If the meta has settled, and yet logis still claim that there are a shortage of logis, then this ABSOLUTELY needs to be addressed by loosening up the bandwidth constraints. If you loosen the constraints, allowing non-logistics suits to use a lot of EQ again, by what possible logic or reason would that result in more people becoming logis?
If you are stating that the meta has settled, and logis also state that there aren't enough logis, then that implies one of two things:
EITHER
1. the meta has not settled, and more people will soon spec into logi, in which case we are in a transitional period.
OR
2. the meta has settled, and as many people that will spec into logi have already done so, and we are left with the logis saying that there are not enough logis, resulting in the fact that there will never be enough logis, and every other role needs to lend a helping hand to the support role.
John Demonsbane wrote:Seriously, just stop. It's getting sad. If you want to advocate for lower BW for RE's or something, go for it. But the QQ about your scout suit not being able to do everything by itself is tiresome
I play all roles. I don't have any qq. I have questions concerning the design and why some parts of the game are being pruned.
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Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 15:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mister Goo wrote:Raging at the bandwidth restrictions placed on you is counterproductive when you blame the other roles and not CCP. This is the second thread you put up today that I have read and they basically say the same thing. Although this one is not quite so ignorant.
I address problems from different angles and attempt to compartmentalize issues to prevent argusplatter. Sometimes I use extreme language, insinuations or abrasive opinions in order to draw in more responses. I have found that a well stated, polite position often disappears into the void, unrecognized, unread and unloved.
It is usually the members of the community that force my specific arguments into their funnel of generalization, making all threads sound the same. |
Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 16:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:More importantly, I'll restate my actual point: In none of these scenarios would giving scout suits more BW result in a proliferation of logis.
(Also: Would not happen in any other possible scenario that does not involve living on Bizarro world.).
That is the problem. You are bent in making more people do what they obviously don't want to do: play logi. There is a natural balance, and bw is offsetting the player base by attempting to shift more people into the logi role, whereas the players don't want to perform that role and you end up with all red letters and no friendly uplinks because there is no role transference, which essentially is agreed upon by the community, that all roles support each other, hence we all need a little spare bw to give a buffer between the role we want to play and the tad bit of team support that each person must contribute in order to run a successful team.
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Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 16:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:I like to dirty sanchez myself and shove a pickle in my pooper while fondling my flute.
I was just seeing if you can make it look like somebody said something that they really didn't say.
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Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 16:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Clone D wrote:look guys I've discovered a trick that's been in use since the beta test doors first opened! I R SMRT
Confirming that you have successfully learned a new trick.
Bane did a FTFY in order to avoid actually following an argument to conclusion. I was simply responding to the gimpiness.
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Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 17:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:I'm bent on stopping these f*cks from taking my role away from me.
[...]
Running around shooting things on the same 4 maps and the same 3 game modes over and over and over bored me to tears; this was the thing that kept me interested in Dust, the intellectual challenge of countering the enemy without needing to be the FC. Or even in a highly organized squad.
These are reasonable concerns, and I'm glad you are seeking intellectual challenge.
However, if tourist logis were setting uplinks in the middle of the roads, then why didn't you put your uplinks in a more desirable position so that people would opt to use your uplinks instead of the tourist logi uplinks?
There's no reason to put a hamper on everyone else's play style because you were upset. Just figure out a way to play your role smarter and better. I did. |
Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 20:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:I will leave you with this... Bandwidth, in its current state, is working as intended. That might mean some of your previous playstyles won't function as well as they used to in terms of ISK efficiency and WP/death. This was almost assuredly done on purpose, as the previous bandwidth-less Dust Uprising was not healthy and allowed other roles to eclipse the logi, at least in terms of deployable equipment. So many of your issues can be traced back to either using lower tiered fittings or running solo... Lower tiered fittings are meant to have fewer resources; less CPU, PG, slots, and yes, bandwidth. This is also was done intentionally. You may have to use advanced or prototype dropsuits to deploy more equipment, just the same as you may have to run advanced or prototype dropsuits to fit more/better modules. You know why you should run in a squad already. You know why soloing is not a smart decision. I don't have to tell you again. As someone else said in a previous thread of yours, you are beyond help  You cannot be shown reason. I will let someone else bump your bandwidth threads from now on.
We have addressed all of this before and you have shown that you cannot enter a debate without using circular arguments. Repetition does not constitute continuing an argument thoroughly. You are the brick wall, while I am willing to walk forward and create new syllogisms, for the sake of reason and curiosity, not a personal agenda.
You fail to engage the idea of "margin of supporting contribution", and show that your personal standards are much more important to you than reason, reality or practicality.
You fail to think globally, holistically or from any perspective outside of your little "I am right" shell.
When you're ready to finish the debate, I'll be waiting. |
Clone D
1298
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Posted - 2015.01.08 22:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Clone D wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:I will leave you with this... Bandwidth, in its current state, is working as intended. That might mean some of your previous playstyles won't function as well as they used to in terms of ISK efficiency and WP/death. This was almost assuredly done on purpose, as the previous bandwidth-less Dust Uprising was not healthy and allowed other roles to eclipse the logi, at least in terms of deployable equipment. So many of your issues can be traced back to either using lower tiered fittings or running solo... Lower tiered fittings are meant to have fewer resources; less CPU, PG, slots, and yes, bandwidth. This is also was done intentionally. You may have to use advanced or prototype dropsuits to deploy more equipment, just the same as you may have to run advanced or prototype dropsuits to fit more/better modules. You know why you should run in a squad already. You know why soloing is not a smart decision. I don't have to tell you again. As someone else said in a previous thread of yours, you are beyond help You cannot be shown reason. I will let someone else bump your bandwidth threads from now on. We have addressed all of this before and you have shown that you cannot enter a debate without using circular arguments. Repetition does not constitute continuing an argument thoroughly. You are the brick wall, while I am willing to walk forward and create new syllogisms, for the sake of reason and curiosity, not a personal agenda. You fail to engage the idea of "margin of supporting contribution", and show that your personal standards are much more important to you than reason, reality or practicality. You fail to think globally, holistically or from any perspective outside of your little "I am right" shell. When you're ready to finish the debate, I'll be waiting. the only result you'll accept as valid is the one where people agree with you. this game is what, three years old on the DUST forums now?
Well you just turned that one around, didn't you. No, I am saying that I want a conversation that continues to the end, not one where my opponent simply says "I'm right and that's how it's gonna be." and then they discontinue the dialog. |
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