DUST Search - [Video] Framerate vs Rate of Fire

Funkmaster Whale wrote:

Bethhy wrote:

Kevall Longstride wrote:

Brought to the attention of CCP Rattati.

This University study on the fundamentals of frame rate on a FPS game should be a MUST read for CCP Shanghai and all CPM's.

"The rate at which frames are rendered in a computer
game directly impacts player performance, influencing
both the game playability and enjoyability"

http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool/papers/fr/fulltext.pdf

Here is a whole PDF explaining the science around it.

That's pretty crazy that there was actually research done on it lol. It's pretty self-evident that framerate directly correlates to the performance. Framerate can be equivocated with the rate at which the player receives information about the game, and when that begins to slow down it ultimately leads to slow response times and worse player performance.

Like I said before, when you're in a scenario like coming face to face with a Heavy in a city socket, you not only have to manage your panic in order to figure out how to best survive the situation, you also have to quite literally battle the game's choppy performance in order to adequately get it to do what you want it to do. At times it feels like the game is betraying you because it starts to stutter and get choppy in those dire and crucial moments where a few milliseconds can mean life or death.

A lot of times poor framerate means overcompensating your aim and target tracking because the game isn't responding as fast as your input and this ultimately leads to untimely and very frustrating deaths.

Pages: [1] 2 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2596	Posted - 2014.12.13 07:36:00 - [1] - Quote Video Link I've been intending to make this video for a while. A lot of people don't seem to feel framerate drops because they use automatic weapons that simply require you to hold the trigger and aim. Conversely, burst-fire and semi-auto weapons require a steady input based on their maximum RoF in order to properly achieve their maximum DPS, and for some reason in this game there's some areas of the map that really suffer from FPS (frames per second) drops and this in turn causes these weapons to act up. I've been using the CR and Burst AR for a while and in these scenarios I'm using the exact same pattern to fire except that in the laggy condition everything is much slower and much tougher to play in. This plays a HUGE part in why HMGs are so devastating in these city sockets. When you come face to face with a heavy you not only begin to panic, the game starts to stutter and slow down and just feel like it's not responding as fast as you want it to. What does everyone think? Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V. 2074	Posted - 2014.12.13 07:51:00 - [2] - Quote that was quite eye opening get on this CCP Amarr: Assault V, Scout V, Sentinel V, Commando V, Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Capital Punishment. 2901	Posted - 2014.12.13 07:55:00 - [3] - Quote Interesting. But do you know for sure that automatic weapons are not suffering the same problem? I would certainly like to see that side by side comparison if you can. Thanks for the video. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 2147	Posted - 2014.12.13 08:00:00 - [4] - Quote Brought to the attention of CCP Rattati. CPM 1 member CEO of DUST University Vist dustcpm.com
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2597	Posted - 2014.12.13 08:02:00 - [5] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Interesting. But do you know for sure that automatic weapons are not suffering the same problem? I would certainly like to see that side by side comparison if you can. Thanks for the video. That's certainly something to consider. Overall though I think it's still much easier to simply hold down the trigger on your HMG/Breach AR and 100% focus on aiming than it is to have your burst rhythm thrown off because the game starts to get choppy in these situations. I think ease of use plays a large part in why certain weapons are more popular in things like PC where you'll typically hear many players complaining about choppy framerates and lag. Burst weapons are much more finicky in terms of getting their rhythm down. Automatics have the luxury of not having to worry about that. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V. 2074	Posted - 2014.12.13 08:02:00 - [6] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Brought to the attention of CCP Rattati. bring up heavy Laz0rs too while you're at it Amarr: Assault V, Scout V, Sentinel V, Commando V, Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3372	Posted - 2014.12.13 08:48:00 - [7] - Quote I have noticed this on the Scrambler Rifle (non-assault). Throughout my mouse input investigations I have come across some knowledge about how UE3 actually works: - UE3 has framerate dependant input. Both buttons/keyboard clicks and movement (source). This is built into the core of the engine, and is not something that can be fixed with a hotfix (or easily with a patch). Funkmaster Whale: You can verify this by throwing a grenade at 720p resolution, and then trying to throw a grenade when resolution is lowered. The activation time is very sluggish in 720p, while in 576p (lowest resolution possible for me) it will be a lot more fluent. If you could record this and show side by side, I think many people will be surprised. Honestly, this must be one of the main reasons why CCP went over to PC with Project Legion instead, PS3+UE3 was not such a great idea in the first place. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3373	Posted - 2014.12.13 09:51:00 - [8] - Quote Please move this thread to the technical support/bugs section. I am making a trello item of it right now. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Clone D Grundstein Automation 1054	Posted - 2014.12.13 10:54:00 - [9] - Quote OP is abssolutely true. I've been saying this since I started playing the game. Full auto weapons have a huge advantage due to lag. ISK Trader channel: blitz
Alex-ZX Valor Coalition Red Whines. 87	Posted - 2014.12.13 11:49:00 - [10] - Quote Good eye, I thought it was me that in cities I was not trying really hard :) Alex's modified ZX-030 HMG Luis' modified VC-107 CR Alex's modified VC-107 SMG *Owner of this beasts*

hfderrtgvcd 1524	Posted - 2014.12.13 15:51:00 - [11] - Quote bump You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 618	Posted - 2014.12.13 16:05:00 - [12] - Quote I just assumed I wasn't drinking coffee fast enough when my ROF slows down. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2613	Posted - 2014.12.13 17:19:00 - [13] - Quote I want to make a follow up video comparing theoretical vs practical DPS of weapons like the CR and Burst AR in normal vs laggy conditions. Ill get on it later tonight. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix 1071	Posted - 2014.12.13 17:23:00 - [14] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: I just assumed I wasn't drinking coffee fast enough when my ROF slows down. See that's what I was thinking. When my Combat slows down I'm like, damn I suck today. Good to know it's another weird game issue, sorta.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. 2647	Posted - 2014.12.13 17:48:00 - [15] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Brought to the attention of CCP Rattati. Rattati knows this. Everyone who has developed a video game knows this. When frame rates drop..... So does the inputs per second the game is registering... This generation of consoles is already bare minimum with 30 FPS caps... When DUST frequently see's FPS drops of 10-15.... It's crazy... Alot of people attribute this to Latency lag... from CCP's end or theirs... More often then not it is directly attributed to FPS drops in the game and the same amount of commands not being registered. This is how to create a Game 101. Also why Vet's who have been here for years push for core mechanic fixes first. Not fluff. Not tweaking the same gun statistic already done 10 times before. This should be the thing the CPM's are mentioning EVERYDAY to CCP. Game Performance. Game performance. Hit detection Hit detection... Game performance. Hit detection. Physics. Net Code. Not nerf this and buff this... What a waste of time. Fix this broken game first and then balance it.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2765	Posted - 2014.12.13 17:54:00 - [16] - Quote Thanks for making a video about this man. I brought this up a long time ago but never had the video evidence to prove. As you can see in the video, the DPS is about cut in half by the reduced framerate. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. 2647	Posted - 2014.12.13 17:56:00 - [17] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Brought to the attention of CCP Rattati. This University study on the fundamentals of frame rate on a FPS game should be a MUST read for CCP Shanghai and all CPM's. "The rate at which frames are rendered in a computer game directly impacts player performance, influencing both the game playability and enjoyability" http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool/papers/fr/fulltext.pdf Here is a whole PDF explaining the science around it.
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3378	Posted - 2014.12.13 18:20:00 - [18] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Brought to the attention of CCP Rattati. This University study on the fundamentals of frame rate on a FPS game should be a MUST read for CCP Shanghai and all CPM's. "The rate at which frames are rendered in a computer game directly impacts player performance, influencing both the game playability and enjoyability" http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool/papers/fr/fulltext.pdf Here is a whole PDF explaining the science around it. Good game engines these days dont have these problems... Similar issues are encountered in embedded systems (my profession), where you these days use a real time operating system to counter that. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2618	Posted - 2014.12.13 18:32:00 - [19] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Brought to the attention of CCP Rattati. This University study on the fundamentals of frame rate on a FPS game should be a MUST read for CCP Shanghai and all CPM's. "The rate at which frames are rendered in a computer game directly impacts player performance, influencing both the game playability and enjoyability" http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool/papers/fr/fulltext.pdf Here is a whole PDF explaining the science around it. That's pretty crazy that there was actually research done on it lol. It's pretty self-evident that framerate directly correlates to the performance. Framerate can be equivocated with the rate at which the player receives information about the game, and when that begins to slow down it ultimately leads to slow response times and worse player performance. Like I said before, when you're in a scenario like coming face to face with a Heavy in a city socket, you not only have to manage your panic in order to figure out how to best survive the situation, you also have to quite literally battle the game's choppy performance in order to adequately get it to do what you want it to do. At times it feels like the game is betraying you because it starts to stutter and get choppy in those dire and crucial moments where a few milliseconds can mean life or death. A lot of times poor framerate means overcompensating your aim and target tracking because the game isn't responding as fast as your input and this ultimately leads to untimely and very frustrating deaths. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. 2650	Posted - 2014.12.13 18:37:00 - [20] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Bethhy wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: Brought to the attention of CCP Rattati. This University study on the fundamentals of frame rate on a FPS game should be a MUST read for CCP Shanghai and all CPM's. "The rate at which frames are rendered in a computer game directly impacts player performance, influencing both the game playability and enjoyability" http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool/papers/fr/fulltext.pdf Here is a whole PDF explaining the science around it. That's pretty crazy that there was actually research done on it lol. It's pretty self-evident that framerate directly correlates to the performance. Framerate can be equivocated with the rate at which the player receives information about the game, and when that begins to slow down it ultimately leads to slow response times and worse player performance. Like I said before, when you're in a scenario like coming face to face with a Heavy in a city socket, you not only have to manage your panic in order to figure out how to best survive the situation, you also have to quite literally battle the game's choppy performance in order to adequately get it to do what you want it to do. At times it feels like the game is betraying you because it starts to stutter and get choppy in those dire and crucial moments where a few milliseconds can mean life or death. A lot of times poor framerate means overcompensating your aim and target tracking because the game isn't responding as fast as your input and this ultimately leads to untimely and very frustrating deaths. It is what kills the average players stay times on DUST. Players log off and go play another game because of DUST's inconsistent game performance... Not because of some FOTM suit or gun. This is the biggest problem with the development strategy of Uprising build. We have spent more time addressing the symptoms of poor game performance then the actual core issue. Game performance. Chromosome even being a beta build... Provided much more consistent game experience.. And in turn created epic moments still talked about in squads today.. Of that epic duel you and a companion had. And both of you acknowledged it was player delivered. Now? Duels are completely based on who has the better hit detection or game performance at that instant... This is what makes people rage quit DUST. The game actively hindering players abilities to create fair competition based on gameplay. Item statistics is a completely different discussion.

Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2620	Posted - 2014.12.13 21:28:00 - [21] - Quote Bethhy wrote: It is what kills the average players stay times on DUST. Players log off and go play another game because of DUST's inconsistent game performance... Not because of some FOTM suit or gun. This is the biggest problem with the development strategy of Uprising build. We have spent more time addressing the symptoms of poor game performance then the actual core issue. Game performance. Chromosome even being a beta build... Provided much more consistent game experience.. And in turn created epic moments still talked about in squads today.. Of that epic duel you and a companion had. And both of you acknowledged it was player delivered. Now? Duels are completely based on who has the better hit detection or game performance at that instant... This is what makes people rage quit DUST. The game actively hindering players abilities to create fair competition based around gameplay. Item statistics is a completely different discussion. I don't think it's fair to blame just game performance, but it certainly is a factor. In fact, I think it's a bigger factor for veteran players since PC is usually far worse in terms of framerate disparities. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 847	Posted - 2014.12.13 22:10:00 - [22] - Quote Bad performance is what drove off a lot of people out of dust the first month. Still to this day there is problems, some people dont even bother to try PC because it has a lot of issues like FPS drops and connection problems which is nothing compared to the first days of uprising. Instead CCP is more worried about adding more aurum stuff and balancing. That's why ive always said any performance improvements are greatly appreciated because that's what us vets want the most we want the game to be able to keep up. AE.
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2623	Posted - 2014.12.14 00:34:00 - [23] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: Bad performance is what drove off a lot of people out of dust the first month. Still to this day there is problems, some people dont even bother to try PC because it has a lot of issues like FPS drops and connection problems which is nothing compared to the first days of uprising. Instead CCP is more worried about adding more aurum stuff and balancing. That's why ive always said any performance improvements are greatly appreciated because that's what us vets want the most we want the game to be able to keep up. You're right. I remember a few friends I tried to introduce to DUST in May 2013 whose PS3s would completely freeze or simply shut down anytime they started it. That was the extreme of course. Framerate was always a touchy subject that didn't really seem to get thorough Dev investigation. I remember the huge thread with CCP Wolfman where he was trying to figure out what was making PC so laggy. Everyone had their methods like restarting their PS3 or whatever to hopefully not get F-ed in PC by lag. It's gotten somewhat better since then but there's still certain sockets where the lag is just brutal. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1065	Posted - 2014.12.14 01:03:00 - [24] - Quote + to op. Please support fair play!
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2645	Posted - 2014.12.15 03:45:00 - [25] - Quote Bump in hopes of some Dev response Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Union118 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 48	Posted - 2014.12.15 04:11:00 - [26] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Video Link I've been intending to make this video for a while. A lot of people don't seem to feel framerate drops because they use automatic weapons that simply require you to hold the trigger and aim. Conversely, burst-fire and semi-auto weapons require a steady input based on their maximum RoF in order to properly achieve their maximum DPS, and for some reason in this game there's some areas of the map that really suffer from FPS (frames per second) drops and this in turn causes these weapons to act up. I've been using the CR and Burst AR for a while and in these scenarios I'm using the exact same pattern to fire except that in the laggy condition everything is much slower and much tougher to play in. This plays a huge part in why HMGs are so devastating in these city sockets. When you come face to face with a heavy you not only begin to panic, the game starts to stutter and slow down and just feel like it's not responding as fast as you want it to. What does everyone think? Edit: Clarification, this was with a M/KB. I dont see a problem. You shot 2 down pretty quick. Starter Fit Suits are OP :-)
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2392	Posted - 2014.12.15 04:21:00 - [27] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: Bad performance is what drove off a lot of people out of dust the first month. Still to this day there is problems, some people dont even bother to try PC because it has a lot of issues like FPS drops and connection problems which is nothing compared to the first days of uprising. Instead CCP is more worried about adding more aurum stuff and balancing. That's why ive always said any performance improvements are greatly appreciated because that's what us vets want the most we want the game to be able to keep up. You're right. I remember a few friends I tried to introduce to DUST in May 2013 whose PS3s would completely freeze or simply shut down anytime they started it. That was the extreme of course. Framerate was always a touchy subject that didn't really seem to get thorough Dev investigation. I remember the huge thread with CCP Wolfman where he was trying to figure out what was making PC so laggy. Everyone had their methods like restarting their PS3 or whatever to hopefully not get F-ed in PC by lag. It's gotten somewhat better since then but there's still certain sockets where the lag is just brutal. When peeps complain that DUST feels slow, clunky, awkward, etc. this is one of the things they are trying to express. Bethy's right, ofc. One of the things raising the hairs on the back of my neck is that we aren't seeing any core mechanics related spinoff coming out of the Legion project. PSN: RationalSpark
Timtron Victory Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 98	Posted - 2014.12.15 04:21:00 - [28] - Quote I prefer single shot weapons like the breach scrambler and Bolt pistol but I cant use the bolt pistol because of lag. Charge up time + lag+ hit detection problems = death. I dont really see it. How is your semi-automatic shooting as fast as an automatic? My problem is freeze frame. I am sneaking up on someone and BAAM they are behind me. Proud Christian Jesus Loves You
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1598	Posted - 2014.12.15 04:21:00 - [29] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: [. . What does everyone think? . . That is EXACTLY the truth. 100% spot on. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2651	Posted - 2014.12.15 09:17:00 - [30] - Quote Union118 wrote: I dont see a problem. You shot 2 down pretty quick. Killing militia suits and scouts doesn't present a huge problem. And in this case the framerate wasn't even that bad in the video. I've had games against certain foreign corps where the framerate goes down and it gets even worse than the video shows. What this means is that a lot of balancing of weapons like the CR, TAR, Burst AR, and other such semi-auto/burst-fire weapons doesn't necessarily reflect what the theoretical DPS of that weapon is. A Burst AR may theoretically have X DPS based on it's RoF but because framerate impacts RoF so much it could actually end up being far less than that. This largely plays into why such weapons aren't as popular. Follow me on Twitch.tv!



Pages: [1] 2 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

MY LIFE FOR AIUR!