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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
5096
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Posted - 2014.11.25 15:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:7 seconds is longer than my Reload time. 10 seconds in total? Do you have any idea what you are suggesting? I do, actually. The base reload speed for an HMG is 8.0s; with reload speed at V it reloads at, what, 6.8s? I rounded that up to 7. If you want to switch to a sidearm then you can immediately fire after exitting at LAV. It's almost as if I am trying to discourage sentinels from insta-murdering everyone after popping out of a vehicle without preventing them from riding in a LAV as a form of transportation around large battlefields...
If sentinels can use sidearms immediately on exiting a vehicle, then I am ok with that, provided that the 3 second exit time applies to ALL suits.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5060
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Posted - 2014.11.25 15:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:If sentinels can use sidearms immediately on exiting a vehicle, then I am ok with that, provided that the 3 second exit time applies to ALL suits. All dropsuits except the pilot suits (I still hold out a tiny sliver of hope that we will one day see the pilot dropsuits in Dust).
My advice to you, playa...
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
5098
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:02:00 -
[33] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:I suggested this in another thread the other day and stand by it. Mobility is supposed to be one of its weaknesses but being able to drive/pilot vehicles almost completely negates that weakness.
Mobility in combat is the Sentinel's weakness.
The problem with HMG Sentinels in LAV's is that they can enter combat directly from the LAV, and can instantly enter the LAV again to retreat from combat.
I am willing to debate suggestions for preventing Sentinels from using LAV's to increase their in combat movement speed, but banning Sentinels from using vehicles is a deal breaker!
If Sentinels cannot use vehicles for transport, then they will spend most of the match slowly lumbering across open fields, and will mostly die to long range Rifles before they ever reach an Objective.
Lets not surgery cote this. Those who want to ban Sentinels from using vehicles want the Sentinel to be removed from the game.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
5098
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
The best suggestion I have seen so far is to prevent the HMG from being used for 7 seconds after exiting a vehicle, while still allowing the use of sidearms.
I personally don't like the 3 second Exit timer suggested, but if it was applied it should be applied to everyone, otherwise you will just have Scout Drive-bys instead, or whatever is the most OP class at the time is. (LAV's allow Laser Rifle users to control range, for instance.)
I would be fine with a 1 second Exit timber, but again it should be applied to everyone.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
5098
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:10:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:If sentinels can use sidearms immediately on exiting a vehicle, then I am ok with that, provided that the 3 second exit time applies to ALL suits. All dropsuits except the pilot suits (I still hold out a tiny sliver of hope that we will one day see the pilot dropsuits in Dust).
Oh, I fully agree with you there. 
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Copharus Arkana
Seykal Expeditionary Group
Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:12:00 -
[36] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Thumb Green wrote:I suggested this in another thread the other day and stand by it. Mobility is supposed to be one of its weaknesses but being able to drive/pilot vehicles almost completely negates that weakness. Mobility in combat is the Sentinel's weakness. The problem with HMG Sentinels in LAV's is that they can enter combat directly from the LAV, and can instantly enter the LAV again to retreat from combat. I am willing to debate suggestions for preventing Sentinels from using LAV's to increase their in combat movement speed, but banning Sentinels from using vehicles is a deal breaker! If Sentinels cannot use vehicles for transport, then they will spend most of the match slowly lumbering across open fields, and will mostly die to long range Rifles before they ever reach an Objective. Lets not surgery cote this. Those who want to ban Sentinels from using vehicles want the Sentinel to be removed from the game.
Let's be honest here. Simply killing what ever you see with a ridiculously powerful gun and godly amount of armor is not really a roll. It is just a massive crutch for scrubs to lean on. It would do the game good to just remove heavys and be done with it. |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
5098
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Drive-by HMG sentinels are annoying and allow sentinels to nullify their biggest weakness: lack of mobility/agility.
Simply not allowing sentinels to ride in/drive a LAV isn't the answer. Squad-based play sometimes necessitates sentinels riding with a group of his squadmates. It isn't fair to sentinels that the sins of a few **** over his ability to travel with his mates.
The enter/exit timer is a good idea, but I might suggest a tweak. Allow sentinels to enter/exit the vehicles in 3 seconds, but they cannot begin firing a heavy weapon or throwing grenades for an additional 7 seconds after leaving the vehicle.
I might also suggest ground vehicles suffering a top speed and acceleration penalty the more sentinels are on-board.
Ripley, it is funny how I went from thinking your idea was insanely stupid, to thinking it was genius, when you pointed out that you did not mean for the 7 second delay to apply to sidearms.
I have to ask though, are Sentinels throwing grenades really a problem? Wouldn't it be simpler to just have the 7 second delay apply to the HMG?
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
5098
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:17:00 -
[38] - Quote
Copharus Arkana wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Thumb Green wrote:I suggested this in another thread the other day and stand by it. Mobility is supposed to be one of its weaknesses but being able to drive/pilot vehicles almost completely negates that weakness. Mobility in combat is the Sentinel's weakness. The problem with HMG Sentinels in LAV's is that they can enter combat directly from the LAV, and can instantly enter the LAV again to retreat from combat. I am willing to debate suggestions for preventing Sentinels from using LAV's to increase their in combat movement speed, but banning Sentinels from using vehicles is a deal breaker! If Sentinels cannot use vehicles for transport, then they will spend most of the match slowly lumbering across open fields, and will mostly die to long range Rifles before they ever reach an Objective. Lets not surgery cote this. Those who want to ban Sentinels from using vehicles want the Sentinel to be removed from the game. Let's be honest here. Simply killing what ever you see with a ridiculously powerful gun and godly amount of armor is not really a roll. It is just a massive crutch for scrubs to lean on. It would do the game good to just remove heavys and be done with it.
I started playing HMG Sentinel well before 1.8. Have a little respect.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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KING CHECKMATE
Opus Arcana
Covert Intervention
5948
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Shouldn't be allowed to drive/pilot vehicles? Let's get a consensus here since the LAV Heavy seems to be ever on the rise.
Heavies on Dropships. Thats the worst....NO, WHERE, TO , HIDE. Insta drop and HMG to da face.
I dont....really understand how im supposed to counter this...
Of course, only cheap try hards do this but well..
The best Damage mod is a HEADSHOT....
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5061
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Ripley, it is funny how I went from thinking your idea was insanely stupid, to thinking it was genius, when you pointed out that you did not mean for the 7 second delay to apply to sidearms. Wait few minutes, it will seem insane again. My ideas are like that.
Fox Gaden wrote:I have to ask though, are Sentinels throwing grenades really a problem? Wouldn't it be simpler to just have the 7 second delay apply to the HMG? I was being conservative when I suggested heavy weapons and grenades. Worst case scenario, a sentinel exits a LAV, pulls the pin on a contact grenade, chucks it at your grill, you esplode... but any dropsuit can do that so why restrict sentinels?
Okay, the penalty can just apply to heavy weapons then.
My advice to you, playa...
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Copharus Arkana
Seykal Expeditionary Group
Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:22:00 -
[41] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Copharus Arkana wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Thumb Green wrote:I suggested this in another thread the other day and stand by it. Mobility is supposed to be one of its weaknesses but being able to drive/pilot vehicles almost completely negates that weakness. Mobility in combat is the Sentinel's weakness. The problem with HMG Sentinels in LAV's is that they can enter combat directly from the LAV, and can instantly enter the LAV again to retreat from combat. I am willing to debate suggestions for preventing Sentinels from using LAV's to increase their in combat movement speed, but banning Sentinels from using vehicles is a deal breaker! If Sentinels cannot use vehicles for transport, then they will spend most of the match slowly lumbering across open fields, and will mostly die to long range Rifles before they ever reach an Objective. Lets not surgery cote this. Those who want to ban Sentinels from using vehicles want the Sentinel to be removed from the game. Let's be honest here. Simply killing what ever you see with a ridiculously powerful gun and godly amount of armor is not really a roll. It is just a massive crutch for scrubs to lean on. It would do the game good to just remove heavys and be done with it. I started playing HMG Sentinel well before 1.8. Have a little respect.
Even before that they were a crutch. Heavys are simply a bad mechanic in PvP games. |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
5099
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:26:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:[quote=Fox Gaden]Okay, the penalty can just apply to heavy weapons then.
I thought about that, but then the Forge Gun has that charge-up time... I don't really use the Forge Gun enough to know how bad that would be. I am just concerned about applying a delay on a weapon that already has a built in delay.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
5099
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Shouldn't be allowed to drive/pilot vehicles? Let's get a consensus here since the LAV Heavy seems to be ever on the rise.
Heavies on Dropships. Thats the worst....NO, WHERE, TO , HIDE. Insta drop and HMG to da face.
I dont....really understand how im supposed to counter this...
Of course, only cheap try hards do this but well..
In a LAV you can predict where you will be when you exit the vehicle. That is not so easy when dropping out of a dropship.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Ryme Intrinseca
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
2076
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:32:00 -
[44] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:If Sentinels cannot use vehicles for transport, then they will spend most of the match slowly lumbering across open fields, and will mostly die to long range Rifles before they ever reach an Objective.
At the start of the match you should either use a different suit or wait for a spawn point (I've done this with my fatty in PC many times). So there is no reason for your heavy to be in a field.
When you do deploy the heavy, you should only do so somewhere where you expect there to be combat. The game should not make it easy for heavies to move to other locations as it is rightly an intrinsic weakness of the suit that it is relatively immobile. LAVs allow that weakness to be bypassed, so the most tanky and ganky suit also becomes highly mobile. This is bad design.
Quote:Lets not surgery cote this.
Sugar coat?
Quote:Those who want to ban Sentinels from using vehicles want the Sentinel to be removed from the game.
That's rather... dramatic, and totally unsupported by the evidence. I have a proto sentinel and am all in favour of limits on vehicle abuse, even if that means an outright vehicle ban for heavies. |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5061
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:32:00 -
[45] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:I thought about that, but then the Forge Gun has that charge-up time... I don't really use the Forge Gun enough to know how bad that would be. I am just concerned about applying a delay on a weapon that already has a built in delay. From a coding perspective, wouldn't it be easier to apply the penalty to all heavy weapons? Would need a dev to weigh in on this one.
I also try to look at things from an immersion standpoint: the penalty applies because heavy weapons are bulky, unwieldy pieces of machinery. Pulling one from a cramped vehicle like a LAV requires a few seconds. Why does the penalty apply to the HMG, but not the forge gun? They both look incredibly awkward and heavy...
My advice to you, playa...
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Whisperen Sub
Napalm Bukkake
7
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:41:00 -
[46] - Quote
I have not noticed a increase in Lav driving heavies at all not since the swarm buff. Heavies need to use lav's how else are they supposed to chase down cowardly tankers. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion
Capital Punishment.
203
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:42:00 -
[47] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Its not that they shouldn't be able to drive and pilot vehicles, its that they can get out right at their optimal and blap anything.
Is there a way to give them a delay getting in and out of vehicles? Or give their weapon a delay to fire? I mean we all know ~proper~ pilot suits would solve the problem for the most part.
A proper pilot suit wont solve the problem of LAV heavies, LAV heavies arent using the LAV as anything but transport to insert themselves into a fight inside their optimal. Heavies using LAVs like this will not opt to use a pilot suit so the problem will remain.
Unless you are saying pilot suits should be required to pilot any vehicle, which I think is a good way to make LAVs useless entirely.
Delays on entering/exiting vehicles would be ideal, I guess. |
TEBOW BAGGINS
GREATNESS ACHIEVED THRU TROLLING
1357
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:46:00 -
[48] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:How about if a Sentinel could not enter a vehicle within 5 seconds of firing their weapon? If he just slaughtered your entire squad why does he care about a 5 second wait to get back into the LAV?... that's a silly idea. 3 second timer to enter/exit a vehicle, then 7 second second wait to begin firing a heavy weapon or throwing grenades upon exiting. You may fire sidearms immediately if you want.
7 seconds... what is this WoW?
AKA Zirzo Valcyn
AFKing since 2012
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
5061
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:51:00 -
[49] - Quote
TEBOW BAGGINS wrote:7 seconds... what is this WoW? No... it's Dust 514. Pay attention.
My advice to you, playa...
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3588
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Posted - 2014.11.25 16:59:00 -
[50] - Quote
No. Restrictions on vehicle piloting is bad.
Increase time to get in and out of a vehicle? Sounds good.
Besides, restrict heavies to be unable to pilot vehicles, ok, I'll just drive my heavy around and he can hop out of the passenger seat and keep doing what he's doing. Preventing them from piloting really won't change much. Unless you don't want them be even able to get into a vehicle at all, in which case that's even more ********.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Thumb Green
Raymond James Corp
1856
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Posted - 2014.11.25 18:55:00 -
[51] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Thumb Green wrote:I suggested this in another thread the other day and stand by it. Mobility is supposed to be one of its weaknesses but being able to drive/pilot vehicles almost completely negates that weakness. Mobility in combat is the Sentinel's weakness. The problem with HMG Sentinels in LAV's is that they can enter combat directly from the LAV, and can instantly enter the LAV again to retreat from combat. I am willing to debate suggestions for preventing Sentinels from using LAV's to increase their in combat movement speed, but banning Sentinels from using vehicles is a deal breaker! If Sentinels cannot use vehicles for transport, then they will spend most of the match slowly lumbering across open fields, and will mostly die to long range Rifles before they ever reach an Objective. Lets not surgery cote this. Those who want to ban Sentinels from using vehicles want the Sentinel to be removed from the game.
No, straight up mobility is the weakness. It's designed for point defense, you're supposed to find a spot, sit there, and kill any enemy that comes to say hello. Not bounce around the map like a ping pong ball.
I run my Sentinel (lvl 5 Amarr, lvl 2 Caldari, and getting around to skilling into the Gallente) quite often so don't fcking tell me I want Sentinels removed from the game just because I don't want them to be able to drive/pilot vehicles. This thread wasn't about banning them from vehicles and I never said such. If a heavy wants to get somewhere fast then he best fcking use teamwork, which after all is supposed to be the core of this game.
Kills:21, Deaths:5, KDR: time for a smoke.
Join us in our Pumpkin Crushing
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1013
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Posted - 2014.11.25 18:57:00 -
[52] - Quote
HAVs: restricted to Pilot suit as the driver, because then you don't have to balance anything around heavies dropping out with FGs/Swarms/HMGs when they get in trouble that should rightfully kill them. Additional gunners should be unrestricted. Delays should be enabled: pilot has a longer delay, with gunners taking a good two seconds or more to enter, to prevent just dumping them out and jumping back in to hide if things go **** up - that's why you have a small turret, you should either remain safe, but restricted or be vulnerable outside.
DSs (all): Pilot suit only for operator; unrestricted for passengers/gunners; stops downed pilots dropping out with an HMG to murder everything within 30m when they land. Delays should definitely be implemented: pilot should have a reasonably long delay (longest of all vehicles); gunners have roughly the same as HAV gunners, maybe marginally faster; passengers have next to no delays (transport bay is mostly open.)
LAVs: non-Heavy suits for the pilot; unrestricted for others. Delays for all, but lowest for all seats compared to other vehicles.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Jack Boost
Zarena Family
510
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Posted - 2014.11.25 21:10:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ok.. as I see you all find out your sollution...
Tell me why I must jump out from LAV?
I have small blaster on it .. and it can do miracles in proposed 7 seconds....
Still you are @#$#$23 here.. and heavy ... or anybody can just drive for next prey.
PPL you are fine when there is only infantry combat. Good squad can do 50:2 for best member... but at next match when vehicles comes in range single solo AV do 2000 WP and the best from squad before about 700 WP.
Yes and then they cry...
I saw one scout for 3 weeks doing murder-taxi. Rail rifle +smg + cloak + LAV .And he is doing it pretty good. Tell me - he need more speed, range or EW? If this is fine why slow heavy is game breaking thing?
Not much time left...
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
5087
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Posted - 2014.11.25 21:37:00 -
[54] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Shouldn't be allowed to drive/pilot vehicles? Let's get a consensus here since the LAV Heavy seems to be ever on the rise.
It's not on the rise.
It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15044
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Posted - 2014.11.25 21:58:00 -
[55] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Shouldn't be allowed to drive/pilot vehicles? Let's get a consensus here since the LAV Heavy seems to be ever on the rise.
Personally I don't think any combat suit should be able to interface with anything more than the basic variant of a vehicle. But since that won't happen I don't see why every suit/class should not have a penalty or timer for entering and exiting vehicles.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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CrotchGrab 360
Yon Hyaku Nijuu Moyase
1530
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Posted - 2014.11.25 22:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
have them ready their gun, the unaware will still get killed if they stand still for long enough but then you can clearly say it was their fault.
if they have to spend 1-2 seconds readying their gun you can run away, leaving them without the advantage which they shouldn't have.
DUST VIDEOS
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Mike Ox Bigger
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
534
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Posted - 2014.11.25 23:11:00 -
[57] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Shouldn't be allowed to drive/pilot vehicles? Let's get a consensus here since the LAV Heavy seems to be ever on the rise.
Well, I gave you an upvote but really heavies just need a reentry timer on vehicles of like ten seconds. It still won't stop LAV heavies. Pull out swarms or do it in style with the PLC.
If you're not wearing proto, you're doing it wrong.
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Vicious Minotaur
1388
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Posted - 2014.11.25 23:28:00 -
[58] - Quote
I seldom have issues with LAV heavies.
If there is even one in a match, they may only be able to get me with such a tactic ONCE. After that, I wisen the hell up.
I blow their LAV up. I choose my route more carefully, either sticking to hills or cover. I use vehicles to cover open ground if need be. Oh, and I usually end up destroying their LAV because I can, often out of spite. (Now, I know what you're thinking: Oh, but the heavy will mow you down after you destroy the LAV! Yeah, if you run completely solo. This is a team game, buttercup. Destroy the LAV, and get support from your squad or blueberries.) After that, from my experiece, the heavy wisens the hell up and stops bringing out vehicles.
Whatever. I have no horse in this race. It's not like any of this (banning heavies from piloting things) even matters. I don't use the Heavy/vehicle combo, nor do I even have trouble with it when used by enemies.
I am a minotaur.
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SgtMajSquish MLBJ
Consolidated Dust
225
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Posted - 2014.11.25 23:34:00 -
[59] - Quote
TL;DR
HMG heavies driving around are not the issue, its the wuss retreat back into the LAV that is the issue. The LAV needs a larger player hitbox to solve the HMG LAV problem
Pffft....... Proto Suits lol
Adv Omni Merc is the way to go
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REMNANCY 1
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
72
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Posted - 2014.11.25 23:47:00 -
[60] - Quote
How about as the primary issue being heavy weapons we instead make it to where sentinels can can use vehicles but heavy weapons are banned from vehicles due to bulk so if a sentinal wants to ride or pilot he has to give up his HMG or forge in favor of light weapons or sidearms as a viable sacrifice without harming heavies or vehicles too much |
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