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[Suggestion] Change Swarm launcher operation

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Finn Colman Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 117	Posted - 2015.01.15 23:21:00 - [31] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Hmm... that's right, you did propose buffing the range a lot. The only thing is how much range will probably not matter without lock-on mechanics. At 400m, your chance of getting swarms within 50m is probably low if they're moving at all. Forge guns currently have a 400m effective range, and I doubt that their shots covers an area of 50m around the central point of their aim (it doesn't even seem to hit the whole area covered by the visual for a FG shot). There isn't a huge point being made here, but it is significant. Edit: Personally, I'm in favor of making SL missiles something that can be avoided by using evasive maneuvers. PSA: Tell players to terminate in order to access mCRUs.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 256	Posted - 2015.01.15 23:49:00 - [32] - Quote Whilst hitting at the range limit would be difficult that's true for any gun, it would be effective though if the enemy was heading somewhere obvious, like a rooftop for example If vehicle pilots think they have a chance to evade they're more likely to stay and fight avoiding the binary run or die scenario Or If they do run being able to get that 4th shot off after the vehicle is over 175m will be of significant benefit
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1254	Posted - 2015.01.16 03:51:00 - [33] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Whilst hitting at the range limit would be difficult that's true for any gun, it would be effective though if the enemy was heading somewhere obvious, like a rooftop for example Definitely. Similarly, it would allow for the Swarmer to preemptively fire at a corner, or fire around the corner if there is a vehicle hiding just behind it. Essentially it allows the Swarmer to use skill more, while simultaneously allowing the vehicle pilot to use their skill. Forge Guns are bastards, but at I can respect them. I have even had several back-and-forth mails with some Forgers because while I was doing my damndest to avoid them they still pegged me. I have never respected a Swarmer, because they are so easy to use that it takes no skill to be half-decent with them and with the Commando suit introduction they have far less troubles against infantry than Forgers do, even though this weakness is so hyped up. Juno Tristan wrote: If vehicle pilots think they have a chance to evade they're more likely to stay and fight avoiding the binary run or die scenario Or If they do run being able to get that 4th shot off after the vehicle is over 175m will be of significant benefit For sure. There have been several times where I could have finished off a HAV or dropship, or gotten a few more missiles off at the blob of infantry bearing down on my allies on the objective, but because the Swarms were unavoidable I had to immediately run. Soraya Xel wrote: Hmm... that's right, you did propose buffing the range a lot. The only thing is how much range will probably not matter without lock-on mechanics. At 400m, your chance of getting swarms within 50m is probably low if they're moving at all. As mentioned, Forge Guns have a 300m range and no lock-on. I believe the notion has been raised in this thread to increase either starting velocity, acceleration or both. Provided I can actually use my ability to fly, I'm totally fine with a Swarmer using their ability to shoot me down. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 5400	Posted - 2015.01.16 04:55:00 - [34] - Quote Swarms are a lot slower than forge gun blasts though, Kallas. Forge gun blasts are almost instant, they move very fast, so you do not have to lead by much. If swarm speed was kept the same, dumbfiring 400m away would be near impossible. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1255	Posted - 2015.01.16 06:34:00 - [35] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Swarms are a lot slower than forge gun blasts though, Kallas. Forge gun blasts are almost instant, they move very fast, so you do not have to lead by much. If swarm speed was kept the same, dumbfiring 400m away would be near impossible. Yeah, I was in favour of an increase to acceleration, velocity or both: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: I believe the notion has been raised in this thread to increase either starting velocity, acceleration or both. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 261	Posted - 2015.01.16 07:21:00 - [36] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Swarms are a lot slower than forge gun blasts though, Kallas. Forge gun blasts are almost instant, they move very fast, so you do not have to lead by much. If swarm speed was kept the same, dumbfiring 400m away would be near impossible. If a Dropship is 'minding its own business' (and not just hovering) 400m away I would expect, and want, it to be hard to hit. But say that Dropship is engaging blueberries on the tabletop are you're within 400m you're likely to be able to hit it, something you cannot do now
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 261	Posted - 2015.01.16 07:25:00 - [37] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Swarms are a lot slower than forge gun blasts though, Kallas. Forge gun blasts are almost instant, they move very fast, so you do not have to lead by much. If swarm speed was kept the same, dumbfiring 400m away would be near impossible. Kallas' post about an assault variant with faster missiles could help address this
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4231	Posted - 2015.01.16 08:42:00 - [38] - Quote Instead of replacing the swarms why not make this the amarr launcher weapon? Gallente- Plasma Cannon Minmatar - Mass Driver Caldari - Swarm Launcher Amarr- AV Grenade Missile (this new weapon) Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6474	Posted - 2015.01.16 08:53:00 - [39] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Instead of replacing the swarms why not make this the amarr launcher weapon? Gallente- Plasma Cannon Minmatar - Mass Driver Caldari - Swarm Launcher Amarr- AV Grenade Missile (this new weapon) Or instead of tracking make it a proximity/EM blast. Instead of homing it gets close enough to a vehicle and BOOM! Kinda how AAMRAAMs work. A bomb-pumped omnidirectional X-ray laser burst seems more amarr than a magnetic/homing weapon. Amarr weapons need flash and light because the logic of their weaponry is purification through God's light. It's as much symbolic as functional. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 4261	Posted - 2015.01.18 04:27:00 - [40] - Quote Same damage profile as a scrambler would be interesting. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

taxi bastard Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 342	Posted - 2015.01.23 22:13:00 - [41] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: How about dumbfire missiles that auto lock once they are 50m within of the target It would require skill to lead the target Greater range, operational to 400m without the DS having to be 175m to get a lock Missiles don't explode unless they get a lock, to avoid anti infantry no lock on time = + ROF decreace = - will have less DPS ....needs more alpha to level things out.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 653	Posted - 2015.01.24 00:00:00 - [42] - Quote Sounds like a good proposal to me. As for locking onto depo's and whatnot, I would suggest just not allowing them to lock onto those things, but have them explode if they hit them, so you can still damage them if you want to... With a bit of splash damage it could be useful for taking over a depo surrounded by enemies, or even a risky way to clear a turret installation, you take a shot to remove the guy controlling it, at the risk of being blown to pieces once the AI takes over. Also leaves room for a decoy module for vehicles, but instead of being a 'no skill' "I've been locked, launch the decoy to instantly evade the swarms" you could have it launch a distance out the back of the vehicle, making it only effective if the missiles are coming from that side. So yeah, I like this idea, well played.
Zepod Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 94	Posted - 2015.01.24 00:05:00 - [43] - Quote Unless you plan on increasing the damage to compensate only being able to launch Swarms 1 at a time, this idea is terrible and would make me feel sorry for those who specced into the Swarm Launcher. You may not like what I said, but it's true. It might anger or offend you, but it's still true.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 292	Posted - 2015.01.24 00:12:00 - [44] - Quote Zepod wrote: Unless you plan on increasing the damage to compensate only being able to launch Swarms 1 at a time, this idea is terrible and would make me feel sorry for those who specced into the Swarm Launcher. i think you've got the wrong idea, missiles would still fire in batches of 4 (I mean they are called swarm launchers) currently the lock on time limits the amount of missiles you can put in the air, this proposal would remove the lock on so i need something to maintain the current rate of fire and therefore a 'cooldown' this proposal is all about rewarding skill both in AV aim and pilot evasion
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1273	Posted - 2015.01.24 08:45:00 - [45] - Quote Just to point out: numbers for DPS can be balanced at any time, the focus should be on the core mechanics of the weapon and how it functions. The current Swarm Launcher is incredibly easy and rewards neither players' (the pilot's nor the Swarm user's) skill at using their respective tools. With the proposition, the important change is the mechanics of the lock-on and the firing; by changing it such that the weapon requires thought and consideration (ie, you can aim 'around' corners, you can pre-empt vehicle movements by shooting ahead of them, etc) then you are rewarding the Swarm user (by making them more devastating in the hands of a pro) and the vehicle pilot (by letting them use their ability at piloting to avoid and/or outfox the Swarmer.) Essentially, don't worry about the numbers right now, they can be balanced immediately and tweaked at any time (as per Rattati's Hotfixes) but the underlying mechanics need support to get implemented because it is a bigger change and one that is not Hotfixable. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1373	Posted - 2015.03.02 01:49:00 - [46] - Quote Since we've got a lot of talk about Swarms again, I'd like to see if more people think this would be a good change to Swarm operation. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7417	Posted - 2015.03.02 08:54:00 - [47] - Quote Honestly the main reason swarms are lock only is using them as an anti-infantry shotgun.Just thinking about the damage output it's almost impossible to direct hit with more than one and the splash is 75 for one meter. why not drop the splash to 25 with a .25m radius and make the swarms "follow the leader" and only going where the crosshairs point? A lot of the old "infantry shotgun" issue can be solved by treating swarm missiles like shaped charges that do minimal collateral damage. That would address both the superlock fire and forget as well as the potential abuse vs. Infantry. Have the sight put a reddot on the aim point and swarms track on the dot. Let's introduce a little human error. AV
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1378	Posted - 2015.03.07 23:42:00 - [48] - Quote Reasonable stuff[/quote] Sounds good to me. The current splash damage is pretty low anyway, and I think somewhere in here is suggested that it only explodes once locked, which would also remove shotgunning with Swarms. Also, bump. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2290	Posted - 2015.03.09 12:48:00 - [49] - Quote I'm absolutely positive I made a post exactly like this a while back. That said I support the idea and think that it would be good as it allows swarms to 1) potentially be dumbfired at infantry again (seriously, create a breach swarm that doesn't do the lockon stuff) and 2) allows swarms to be balanced a lot more closely to the plasma cannon. You could probably just flat copy the magazine size, rof, ammo and a few other aspects, while giving the swarm a flat travel path instead of the slight arc of a PLC and adding an av grenade like lockon to the missile (solely for dropships, lavs and tanks. Then bump the PLC's damage up by a little bit as it's now the 'harder to use' weapon and pair swarm damage with it making a few subtractions for ease of use. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Diesel Heat seeker UKheadhunters 14	Posted - 2015.03.09 14:08:00 - [50] - Quote I was in a DS yesterday in a dom match. I took a hit with swarms as I was below 100m, once I took the first round I hit one complex armor hardener and headed straight up to recharge. after reaching what I thought was a safe distance I took the second round of swarms which killed me in air. At 330m a swarm is good to a point and to be fair if he can reach in the air to 330m then there should be no issue hitting turrets on the ground just as far. Closed Beta Vet. New Eden is at the horizon. Pilots beware.

Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1439	Posted - 2015.04.03 10:20:00 - [51] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: I'm absolutely positive I made a post exactly like this a while back. That said I support the idea and think that it would be good as it allows swarms to 1) potentially be dumbfired at infantry again (seriously, create a breach swarm that doesn't do the lockon stuff) and 2) allows swarms to be balanced a lot more closely to the plasma cannon. You could probably just flat copy the magazine size, rof, ammo and a few other aspects, while giving the swarm a flat travel path instead of the slight arc of a PLC and adding an av grenade like lockon to the missile (solely for dropships, lavs and tanks. Then bump the PLC's damage up by a little bit as it's now the 'harder to use' weapon and pair swarm damage with it making a few subtractions for ease of use. This, very much so I still feel that this is probably the best possible change to make to Swarms to allow us all a greater degree of balance: as has been said before, this would actually increase the effectiveness of a skilled Swarm by allowing them 'round the corner' shots. (Also bump) Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Doshneil Antaro The Xclusive Lounge 329	Posted - 2015.04.03 16:19:00 - [52] - Quote Great idea, but I cannot condone a range increase. 400m would cover about 70% of most Dom maps. This would cause players to just pre spam the air with missiles regardless of vehicles, and would effectively keep dropships from entering into the playable area. As it stands, a good dropship pilot starts evading as soon as they hear swarms launched. This still leaves the AV Swarm user a chance to shoot a second time. Even with afterburners on, and flying deep into ones own redline, both rounds will still likely hit. Pilots don't use afterburners to get away from swarms, but rather to get away before the AV can fire more at them. AT 400m, escape would not be possible. Sage /thread
Diesel Heat seeker UKheadhunters 17	Posted - 2015.04.04 14:23:00 - [53] - Quote Being in maps daily before and after the patch, most pilots get hit and retreat after first shots. When they are above all buildings and are above there own mcc that is not a experienced pilot, that is a pilot that doesn't want to lose his low armored/shield ds. I run advice and proto hav's, I will bring in both if needed but run 90%complex on my advanced, I try not brining proto out just due to 2mil isk to restock. Ads take damage from swarms but do not need to fly above 300m in the air to recharge, try doing that in eve cause you will not survive. When all the red dots are away, all the blueberries can come out and play...
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1444	Posted - 2015.04.05 01:43:00 - [54] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: Great idea, but I cannot condone a range increase. 400m would cover about 70% of most Dom maps. This would cause players to just pre spam the air with missiles regardless of vehicles, and would effectively keep dropships from entering into the playable area. While I appreciate that notion, Swarm users - or more specifically Commandos - are very vulnerable to infantry while actually firing. If AV players are spamming the (very expansive) sky to act as a flak battery they are not only leaving themselves wide open to infantry but actively announcing their presence, and status as vulnerable, to any nearby blueberries. That said I don't, personally, feel that a particularly large range increase is needed: 400m is probably still excessive, but matching the FG's 300m with advantages (still homing, but less so) and disadvantages (still a longer travel time) wouldn't be unreasonable. Not to mention the fact that while spamming could be possible as an area denial tool (mercpower intensive as it would be, to saturate enough airspace) the mere fact that a pilot would be able to dodge is such an enormous change to the current situation that even 400m would have pilots in a much more responsive place: rather than simply running and getting hit, they'd be able to manoeuvre and could actively participate in a Swarm/DS duel in a similar fashion to FG/DS. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1909	Posted - 2015.04.05 03:35:00 - [55] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: How about dumbfire missiles that auto lock once they are 50m within of the target Yes, something like that. Or maybe this as well here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2671962#post2671962 Looking at both sides of the coin. Even Aurum one.


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