|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1006
   |
Posted - 2014.11.25 05:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is definitely something that would be a very interesting change to the Swarm. It would allow vehicles to actually evade through erratic movement but good Swarmers would be able to box them, guaranteeing a certain amount of hits.
I'd probably say that a velocity increase should go with it: currently swarms start at about 10m/s with a 10m/s-¦ acceleration (I think it's 10 anyway) but a start at about 30-45m/s and a max speed of about 100m/s with a 15-20m/s-¦ accel could be more reasonable, since they'd have a long travel time past 200m.
All that said, I love this idea!
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1024
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 14:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Juno Tristan wrote:I would be interested to hear what tankers have to say about the suggestion as with the extended firing range a smaller lock on sphere might work better
Not a tanker, but what about two variants?
Standard which is relatively slow with a good 30-50m lock-on radius; Assault which has faster projectiles but a smaller (15-25m?) lock-on radius.
I think most interesting would be to hear from Swarm users.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1024
|
Posted - 2014.11.27 15:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:It might work, but the image which came to my mind was off all my missiles deciding to lock on nearby Supply Depots, Turrets, and CRUGÇÖs. Or all the missiles deciding to lock on different targets. Could be frustrating.
That is a good point. Though with the current system, if a HAV is sheltering behind a depot/CRU then the same issue sort of applies.
Lazer Fo Cused wrote:1. That requires a little bit of aim for DS but not for ground vehicles
1a. Is that 400m dumbfire limit? but also if dumbfire is 400m limit what happens when it locks on will it them keep moving for another 400m of lock on?
1) It does require some aim, though the lock-on range may need tweaking. As I said above, it might be worth having two variants: one with larger lock-on range but slower; one faster but smaller lock-on range.
1a) I'd assume that it would have a 400m max travel distance. That's a point that would need to be fiddled with.
Lazer Fo Cused wrote:2. Against ground vehicles could be OP still
2a. Say i fire swarms at a tank which i know is hiding around the corner, all i have to do is aim to the right or left of cover and when the missiles get close enough lock on do a 270deg turn on the spot and hit a vehicle behind cover thus making cover useless again
2) In this circumstance, they'd still have the ability to put cover between them. As above it might be necessary to fiddle with lock-on ranges.
2a) That's a good point, and again, lock-on ranges would need looking at. Maybe a 25m lock-on range base?
Lazer Fo Cused wrote:3. I think i would prefer the laser lock on, you have to tag the target and keep the target tagged for the missiles to hit, if the tag is lost in any way the missiles blow
3) That's another option. I think the idea behind Juno's idea is that you still have an element of fire and forget, but would restrict it from being entirely skill less to use. An autolock mehcanism would reward intelligent estimations of enemy movement. A laser-guidance system could be interesting, though it depends on the laser: is it a pinpoint? Does the missile explode if the laser is off the target for a fraction of a second?
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1027
|
Posted - 2014.11.28 15:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Using a lock-on weapon doesn't require "skill."
Perhaps try reading the thread/suggestion next time? Maybe then you won't act like an incorrigible douchebag...
Juno's idea is to make it such that the missiles are launched dumb, like a Plasma or Large Missile round then lock-on when they get near to a target. That would mean that some element of skill must be used to judge the target's movement and account for it.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1032
|
Posted - 2014.11.29 10:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Atiim wrote:I like the idea.
Honestly, I'm very pleased to see that 
Atiim wrote:However, I don't like that last part. SLs have a re-fire delay along with only 68HP of splash damage so it's not neccesary. Plus, without that last part you'd be able to kill Infantry if you're a good shot (like the PLC).
Agreed. I'm not entirely sure if it would be best to maintain the four-shot volley and refire delays, or change to more of a burst-fire type style (like a Burst ScP for example.)
Maybe variants could have the different functionality with the standard keeping the volley/refire system.
As far as splash is concerned, it's not going to be murdering infantry as the Swarm of old. The splash damage is curtailed heavily and even the direct damage is relatively low since you'd be unlikely to land multiple hits on the same target; and a Mass Driver would be better against a cluster due to the radius.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1250
|
Posted - 2015.01.15 16:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Just wondering if anyone else has an opinion on this. I honestly feel this change would remove a lot of the annoyance about Swarmer spam, since it would require some aiming to achieve effects, unlike the current system which leads to incredibly easy to apply AV.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1254
|
Posted - 2015.01.16 03:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Juno Tristan wrote:Whilst hitting at the range limit would be difficult that's true for any gun, it would be effective though if the enemy was heading somewhere obvious, like a rooftop for example
Definitely. Similarly, it would allow for the Swarmer to preemptively fire at a corner, or fire around the corner if there is a vehicle hiding just behind it.
Essentially it allows the Swarmer to use skill more, while simultaneously allowing the vehicle pilot to use their skill.
Forge Guns are bastards, but at I can respect them. I have even had several back-and-forth mails with some Forgers because while I was doing my damndest to avoid them they still pegged me. I have never respected a Swarmer, because they are so easy to use that it takes no skill to be half-decent with them and with the Commando suit introduction they have far less troubles against infantry than Forgers do, even though this weakness is so hyped up.
Juno Tristan wrote:If vehicle pilots think they have a chance to evade they're more likely to stay and fight avoiding the binary run or die scenario
Or
If they do run being able to get that 4th shot off after the vehicle is over 175m will be of significant benefit
For sure. There have been several times where I could have finished off a HAV or dropship, or gotten a few more missiles off at the blob of infantry bearing down on my allies on the objective, but because the Swarms were unavoidable I had to immediately run.
Soraya Xel wrote:Hmm... that's right, you did propose buffing the range a lot. The only thing is how much range will probably not matter without lock-on mechanics. At 400m, your chance of getting swarms within 50m is probably low if they're moving at all.
As mentioned, Forge Guns have a 300m range and no lock-on. I believe the notion has been raised in this thread to increase either starting velocity, acceleration or both.
Provided I can actually use my ability to fly, I'm totally fine with a Swarmer using their ability to shoot me down.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1255
|
Posted - 2015.01.16 06:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Swarms are a lot slower than forge gun blasts though, Kallas. Forge gun blasts are almost instant, they move very fast, so you do not have to lead by much. If swarm speed was kept the same, dumbfiring 400m away would be near impossible.
Yeah, I was in favour of an increase to acceleration, velocity or both:
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:I believe the notion has been raised in this thread to increase either starting velocity, acceleration or both.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1273
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 08:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Just to point out: numbers for DPS can be balanced at any time, the focus should be on the core mechanics of the weapon and how it functions. The current Swarm Launcher is incredibly easy and rewards neither players' (the pilot's nor the Swarm user's) skill at using their respective tools.
With the proposition, the important change is the mechanics of the lock-on and the firing; by changing it such that the weapon requires thought and consideration (ie, you can aim 'around' corners, you can pre-empt vehicle movements by shooting ahead of them, etc) then you are rewarding the Swarm user (by making them more devastating in the hands of a pro) and the vehicle pilot (by letting them use their ability at piloting to avoid and/or outfox the Swarmer.)
Essentially, don't worry about the numbers right now, they can be balanced immediately and tweaked at any time (as per Rattati's Hotfixes) but the underlying mechanics need support to get implemented because it is a bigger change and one that is not Hotfixable.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1373
|
Posted - 2015.03.02 01:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Since we've got a lot of talk about Swarms again, I'd like to see if more people think this would be a good change to Swarm operation.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
|
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1378
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 23:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
Reasonable stuff[/quote]
Sounds good to me. The current splash damage is pretty low anyway, and I think somewhere in here is suggested that it only explodes once locked, which would also remove shotgunning with Swarms.
Also, bump.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1439
|
Posted - 2015.04.03 10:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:I'm absolutely positive I made a post exactly like this a while back. That said I support the idea and think that it would be good as it allows swarms to 1) potentially be dumbfired at infantry again (seriously, create a breach swarm that doesn't do the lockon stuff) and 2) allows swarms to be balanced a lot more closely to the plasma cannon.
You could probably just flat copy the magazine size, rof, ammo and a few other aspects, while giving the swarm a flat travel path instead of the slight arc of a PLC and adding an av grenade like lockon to the missile (solely for dropships, lavs and tanks. Then bump the PLC's damage up by a little bit as it's now the 'harder to use' weapon and pair swarm damage with it making a few subtractions for ease of use.
This, very much so
I still feel that this is probably the best possible change to make to Swarms to allow us all a greater degree of balance: as has been said before, this would actually increase the effectiveness of a skilled Swarm by allowing them 'round the corner' shots.
(Also bump)
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1444
|
Posted - 2015.04.05 01:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Doshneil Antaro wrote:Great idea, but I cannot condone a range increase. 400m would cover about 70% of most Dom maps. This would cause players to just pre spam the air with missiles regardless of vehicles, and would effectively keep dropships from entering into the playable area.
While I appreciate that notion, Swarm users - or more specifically Commandos - are very vulnerable to infantry while actually firing.
If AV players are spamming the (very expansive) sky to act as a flak battery they are not only leaving themselves wide open to infantry but actively announcing their presence, and status as vulnerable, to any nearby blueberries.
That said I don't, personally, feel that a particularly large range increase is needed: 400m is probably still excessive, but matching the FG's 300m with advantages (still homing, but less so) and disadvantages (still a longer travel time) wouldn't be unreasonable.
Not to mention the fact that while spamming could be possible as an area denial tool (mercpower intensive as it would be, to saturate enough airspace) the mere fact that a pilot would be able to dodge is such an enormous change to the current situation that even 400m would have pilots in a much more responsive place: rather than simply running and getting hit, they'd be able to manoeuvre and could actively participate in a Swarm/DS duel in a similar fashion to FG/DS.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
|
|
| |
|