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Where are the Forge Guns?

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Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 278	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:10:00 - [1] - Quote I remember when it took a Forge gun and the ability to do more then look at a dropship to kill it and Swarm Launchers were the surefire way to get ADS pilots off your back for a moment. When Forge Guns were the AV weapon of choice pilots still existed, now you see maybe one every 4-5 matches since Swarms took over and they are killed in 4 minutes if you are an optimist of the match starting. Kill the Swarm Launcher while you still can! Now Forge Guns are just manly sniper rifles for those times you really want to kill one person. The State will always survive.
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1129	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:17:00 - [2] - Quote Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Chocolate Juice
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14969	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:22:00 - [3] - Quote I love how when its something that affects DS and ADS its a problem...... but if it were HAV then it would be fair game... I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this. Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 278	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:22:00 - [4] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . They shouldn't be equal to or greater then a Forge Gun. Needing to aim and chase one down with a heavy required skill and not just some random guy with any suit but some random guy with a Sentinel or Basic Heavy suit. The State will always survive.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5051	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:33:00 - [5] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . I warned everyone. But the AV babies cried that they couldn't solo the world with a no skill weapon. It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 278	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:52:00 - [6] - Quote Swarms deserve to be a nuisance at best while Forges should be the killer. The State will always survive.
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 6035	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:59:00 - [7] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . I warned everyone. But the AV babies cried that they couldn't solo the world with a no skill weapon. Actually it was tankers who complained that Dropships were too much of a hastle because they tended to make it nearly impossible for an HAV to survive in the open. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1130	Posted - 2014.11.24 03:04:00 - [8] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . I warned everyone. But the AV babies cried that they couldn't solo the world with a no skill weapon. Actually it was tankers who complained that Dropships were too much of a hastle because they tended to make it nearly impossible for an HAV to survive in the open. Tanks can two shot DS with a railgun. I put on 3 complex dmg mods on my particle cannon and I take almost 60-70% HP away from DS. A followup shot a second later=dead 500k isk ADS. Chocolate Juice
G Felix 226	Posted - 2014.11.24 03:28:00 - [9] - Quote Bahirae Serugiusu wrote: Swarms deserve to be a nuisance at best while Forges should be the killer. I think you're not too far off the mark here. Swarms seem like they really should be more of a vehicle "Deterrent" with FG's being the more lethal threat. That being said, there are still some VERY dangerous forge gunners out there that put swarm users to shame. Dust can be frustrating. (Gò»°Gûí°)Gò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+)
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1307	Posted - 2014.11.24 03:37:00 - [10] - Quote I run both swarms and FG but I play mostly swarms now. Why? Because to play effectively, and not be a rooftop camper, you need mobility and independence. I can't run to where I need to be in a fat suit and I don't have hives on a fat suit. If I play FG, I spend most of the match running around looking for ammo. Using swarms requires very little skill, using swarms and killing your target takes just as much skill as using a FG. Aiming is a skill, but it dies not define skill. Because, that's why.

Lupus Wolf Minmatar Republic 51	Posted - 2014.11.24 04:30:00 - [11] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I love how when its something that affects DS and ADS its a problem...... but if it were HAV then it would be fair game... I don't often tank, but when I do, it's for a few minutes before I see 3 swarmers and a jihad LAV. Sky whale mating rituals!! Go home Damage Indicator, you're drunk Good, good... let the nanites flow through you
Powerh8er The Rainbow Effect 545	Posted - 2014.11.24 05:26:00 - [12] - Quote Its scrub 514, even plasma cannons are more viable on the battlefield than forge guns.
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 2774	Posted - 2014.11.24 05:40:00 - [13] - Quote Yeah, no, I can take out any ADS with an IAFK with my pair of C-Dmods if I have a steady hand, afterburners be royally damned I'll still kill the bastard, and with the MASSIVE critical bonus forges have against engine blocks I'll curbstomb HAV pilots just fine... Seriously, hybrids such as Railguns against shielded engine blocks have 90% efficiency and 112% against engine block and bottom, Forge Guns have 90% body, 112% bottom and 168% engine block. Kablewy. It's all about positioning, skill and steady hands. "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5057	Posted - 2014.11.24 07:37:00 - [14] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . I warned everyone. But the AV babies cried that they couldn't solo the world with a no skill weapon. Actually it was tankers who complained that Dropships were too much of a hastle because they tended to make it nearly impossible for an HAV to survive in the open. I don't recall the tankers asking for swarms to get a buff. It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui VEHICLEBUSTERS Demolitions and Logistics Corp . 1466	Posted - 2014.11.24 10:05:00 - [15] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . I warned everyone. But the AV babies cried that they couldn't solo the world with a no skill weapon. Who ever said swarms require no skill is just fooling themselves , other infantry , ADS's , DS's , HAV's and there pilots , drive by LAV's with multiple jump out's , Scout's , Commando's and stationary turrets are all pointed at swarmer's . You have to wait for the lock-on , have position , track the vehicle and not loose it , also readjust your positioning so your not surprised by infantry as well as vehicles . You people are silly that keep calling swarms , " No-Skill " .... your easily the ones that don't use them enough because if you did you would know better . It doesn't matter how much you have in them and what you claim , the fact that you down play the risks leaves one to question if you actually know what your talking about . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui VEHICLEBUSTERS Demolitions and Logistics Corp . 1466	Posted - 2014.11.24 10:09:00 - [16] - Quote Forge Guns are fine , you probably don't see many because there are more assault players running around and still more people using scouts . Just because you don't see them doesn't mean that there not out there . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
Blueprint For Murder Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 401	Posted - 2014.11.24 10:24:00 - [17] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . I would say it has more to do with slot req., speed, and jump. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
The Master Race Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 401	Posted - 2014.11.24 10:24:00 - [18] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . I would say it has more to do with slot req., speed, and jump. The Impossible Dream-Wizard Talk @MMoMerc
Pepperoni NiPPles PePPer0nI NiPPle Circus 0	Posted - 2014.11.24 10:35:00 - [19] - Quote the forge needs its splash damage back!
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui VEHICLEBUSTERS Demolitions and Logistics Corp . 1466	Posted - 2014.11.24 11:01:00 - [20] - Quote Pepperoni NiPPles wrote: the forge needs its splash damage back! You have the assaults for that . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .

boba's fetta Dead Man's Game RUST415 824	Posted - 2014.11.24 11:05:00 - [21] - Quote My commando can't carry a forge.
Duke Noobiam The-Devil's-Rejects 268	Posted - 2014.11.24 11:44:00 - [22] - Quote Bahirae Serugiusu wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . They shouldn't be equal to or greater then a Forge Gun. Needing to aim and chase one down with a heavy required skill and not just some random guy with any suit but some random guy with a Sentinel or Basic Heavy suit. Well swarms can only be used against vehicles whereas forge guns can also be used against infantry. BPO dropsuits owned: Sever M-1 logi, Quafe M-1 assault, Quafe M-1 scout, Raven C-1 assault, Dragonfly G-1 scout
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 177	Posted - 2014.11.24 12:22:00 - [23] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . I warned everyone. But the AV babies cried that they couldn't solo the world with a no skill weapon. Who ever said swarms require no skill is just fooling themselves , other infantry , ADS's , DS's , HAV's and there pilots , drive by LAV's with multiple jump out's , Scout's , Commando's and stationary turrets are all pointed at swarmer's . You have to wait for the lock-on , have position , track the vehicle and not loose it , also readjust your positioning so your not surprised by infantry as well as vehicles . You people are silly that keep calling swarms , " No-Skill " .... your easily the ones that don't use them enough because if you did you would know better . It doesn't matter how much you have in them and what you claim , the fact that you down play the risks leaves one to question if you actually know what your talking about . you do realise that everybody else has to watch out for the enemy as well? except they have the burden of aiming to deal with at the same time
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1543	Posted - 2014.11.24 12:53:00 - [24] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . I warned everyone. But the AV babies cried that they couldn't solo the world with a no skill weapon. Actually it was tankers who complained that Dropships were too much of a hastle because they tended to make it nearly impossible for an HAV to survive in the open. No, there has been hardly any complains like that. Skilled HAV operators hunt dropships. Have done ever after the reign of small msl launcers of November 2012 when it was the other way around. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 13915	Posted - 2014.11.24 13:13:00 - [25] - Quote Given how most 1v1s I've been in against ADSs have involved them shooting missiles at me, I can safely say that it requires more than simply "looking" at the ADS to destroy it. Though I find that ironic because to kill an Infantry with Missiles, you don't actually aim but rotate the nose of the ADS. Which, also means that you only kill them by looking at them and pressing R1 repeatedly. Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . Swarms require many skills, such as positioning, preparation, timing, situational awareness, flight path predictions, enemy movement path predictions, etc. Though given how you find ADSs to be UP along with Scouts, I'm 95% sure that you're to terrible of a player to assess skill and it's perquisites. That aside, the actual reason why SLs are more common than FGs is because the amount of suits that can use FGs vs those that can only use SLs are 2:7. Obviously people are going to invest into Swarms for AV as opposed to grinding for a new Dropsuit that they'll only use a few times. Not that it matters. Gunnlogies and Pythons are far more common than their armored counterparts, yet do you see Swarmers and Forgers crying about it? No? Then HTFU. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 13915	Posted - 2014.11.24 13:16:00 - [26] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: you do realise that everybody else has to watch out for the enemy as well? except they have the burden of aiming to deal with at the same time That "everybody" includes Swarmers so his point still stands. Though nobody using anything other than a FG/PLC/FLP/SR/MD or H/LAV turret has to worry about the "burden" of aiming as they have Aim Assist to do it for them. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 177	Posted - 2014.11.24 13:23:00 - [27] - Quote So the missile launcher is getting target reticle that fills half the screen? or missiles that lock onto the target? So long as you don't act like you're chasing a balloon swarm launchers are easy mode
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui VEHICLEBUSTERS Demolitions and Logistics Corp . 1469	Posted - 2014.11.24 13:26:00 - [28] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: you do realise that everybody else has to watch out for the enemy as well? except they have the burden of aiming to deal with at the same time You do realize that the only suit that one could actually defend themselves in while swarming is a Commando suit and not too many side arms can take out a sentinel with a HMG unless your using NK's in a min scout suit and then you still have to worry about range because a swarm can't kill infantry . What your taking about is a given , while swarming in anything other then a Commando is risky and that's still not a given . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed .
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 177	Posted - 2014.11.24 13:36:00 - [29] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: you do realise that everybody else has to watch out for the enemy as well? except they have the burden of aiming to deal with at the same time You do realize that the only suit that one could actually defend themselves in while swarming is a Commando suit and not too many side arms can take out a sentinel with a HMG unless your using NK's in a min scout suit and then you still have to worry about range because a swarm can't kill infantry . What your taking about is a given , while swarming in anything other then a Commando is risky and that's still not a given . Excluding the commando the best suit to use the swarm launcher is the scout suit, use stealth to get into position and ambush your target If you see a heavy you run away using your speed, stealth and scanning plus sidearms are pretty good these days, combine a flux grenade (because also AV) with a flaylock and you're in business
Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 281	Posted - 2014.11.24 13:59:00 - [30] - Quote Within four matches of unlocking the ADV Swarm Launcher I killed two dropships, three LAV, and a Soma with four basic damage mods on a Caldari Assault. The State will always survive.

DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 15184	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:02:00 - [31] - Quote I hate threads like these because I know at some point im going to have my IQ poisoned by a response from Attim Flight Academy coming soon(tm) to my YouTube Fly Safe
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 13918	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:03:00 - [32] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: So the missile launcher is getting target reticle that fills half the screen? or missiles that lock onto the target? So long as you don't act like you're chasing a balloon swarm launchers are easy mode How small is your TV? The reticule barely fills 1/4th of my screen. Though you say the latter as if escaping SLs via Afterburner is not. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 179	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:24:00 - [33] - Quote Atiim wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: So the missile launcher is getting target reticle that fills half the screen? or missiles that lock onto the target? So long as you don't act like you're chasing a balloon swarm launchers are easy mode How small is your TV? The reticule barely fills 1/4th of my screen. Though you say the latter as if escaping SLs via Afterburner is not. let me deploy all these counter measures to avoid the swarms flares? nope evasive flying? nope they're locked on use cover? nope they've followed me around the building hardener? well it's a pity I can't fight back since my DS is being knocked around like a $5 hooker, it'll buy me a few more shots before someone joins the swarm party or how about i YOLO the **** out of here using an afterburner as apparently that's the only thing an ADS is meant to do based on Ratatti's balancing
Mejt0 Fat'Kids are Hard to Kidnap 525	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:57:00 - [34] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Atiim wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: So the missile launcher is getting target reticle that fills half the screen? or missiles that lock onto the target? So long as you don't act like you're chasing a balloon swarm launchers are easy mode How small is your TV? The reticule barely fills 1/4th of my screen. Though you say the latter as if escaping SLs via Afterburner is not. let me deploy all these counter measures to avoid the swarms flares? nope evasive flying? nope they're locked on use cover? nope they've followed me around the building hardener? well it's a pity I can't fight back since my DS is being knocked around like a $5 hooker, it'll buy me a few more shots before someone joins the swarm party or how about i get the **** out of here using an afterburner as apparently that's the only thing an ADS is meant to do based on Ratatti's balancing Pilots in pythons eat swarms and easly kill the ones wielding them. Cuz the have 80% resist vs swarms with activated hardeners. Ps. About ADS v Tank. Tank will get wrecked in open. Everytime. Unless you will jump out with IAFG then you will get extra time to flee into redline. Yea railguns 2shoot ADS'es. But you can't do it when ADS is above you all the time. It's not like that people are flying 50m above the ground. AV fitted ADS will fly high above untill he will see his target. Caldari Loyalist Markiplier fan. Got 6815 WP only on wrecking tanks with Ion Cannon.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 200	Posted - 2014.11.24 15:58:00 - [35] - Quote Dear Diary, Today I've seen everything, people actually think swarm launchers are better than forge guns. I can now die dissapointed.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1000	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:01:00 - [36] - Quote Atiim wrote: How small is your TV? The reticule barely fills 1/4th of my screen. ...you just don't understand how to actually approach rationality do you? The Swarm lock-on box is enormous: it doesn't actually matter how much of the screen KT fills because it is almost impossible to lose a lock-on unless you forget to move half an inch with the right stick or a building gets in the way. Atiim wrote: Though you say the latter as if escaping SLs via Afterburner is not. As someone pointed out, an Afterburner takes you out of the fight almost as surely as death does: you are forced away for a long period of time (considering that even with max skills you're looking at a 26s cooldown, plus however long you were running for) in a battle that lasts between 7-15 minutes (roughly, not exactly checked every battle, though that's the range I estimate) - assuming a 15 minute game, that 30+ second downtime is 1/30th of the battle. A Swarmer will run off an ADS during their first encounter, and any additional encounter where the ADS tries to locate and remove the Swarmer but is run off is more time where they are incapable of assisting the team: despite what some might think about ADS pilots, a lot of us actually try to help with our presence, not just try to farm kills although without a good comm system it's not easy to use the full uplift and redeployment capacity, making clearing areas one of the simplest solutions to help. Anyway, point being that escaping with an Afterburner might preserve the ship, there is little to no way to fight a Swarmer because there is no skilful or tactical method to defeating them: a Forge Gunner can be dodged and the charge time can be manipulated to at least get return fire in, whereas the Swarmer is either dead in the first second or two, flee, or die in return. Mejt0 wrote: Pilots in pythons eat swarms and easly kill the ones wielding them. Cuz they have 80% resist vs swarms with activated hardeners. This is how hardeners work, not the 80 that you state. With double hardeners active versus a swarm launcher (explosive, -20/+20 profile) the shield vehicle is effectively resisting 68.5% of the damage received. Wiyrkomi (312) * 1 CxDMod (1.07: 333.84) * 2 CxDMod (1.0602: 353.94) = 353.94 per missile. 353.94 * 0.8 (explosive profile: 283.15) * 0.6 (first hardener: 169.89) * 0.656 (second hardener: 111.45) With double hardeners active a Wiyrkomi (non-MinCom) SL with two complex damage modules will cause 111.45 damage per missile (enough to prevent shield regeneration) and 445.8 per volley of four. With MinCom 5, that is 122.595; 490.38 per volley. Happy maths everyone (It's not perfect, since the stacking penalty is marginally worse - actually 0.869 I think it is - but it is pretty accurate to the actual application.) Mejt0 wrote:* Ps. About ADS v Tank. Tank will get wrecked in open. Everytime. Unless you will jump out with IAFG then you will get extra time to flee into redline. Indeed,the biggest threat comes from the dead zone above the turret elevation ceiling. I'm all for missiles and blasters having a slightly increased elevation angle: personally I feel that we need better designed maps, allowing railguns to receive a range buff (essentially we need a deeper battlefield, so that Railguns can stretch their legs without having redline immunity zones.) Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 200	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:11:00 - [37] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Atiim wrote: How small is your TV? The reticule barely fills 1/4th of my screen. ...you just don't understand how to actually approach rationality do you? The Swarm lock-on box is enormous: it doesn't actually matter how much of the screen KT fills because it is almost impossible to lose a lock-on unless you forget to move half an inch with the right stick or a building gets in the way. Atiim wrote: Though you say the latter as if escaping SLs via Afterburner is not. As someone pointed out, an Afterburner takes you out of the fight almost as surely as death does: you are forced away for a long period of time (considering that even with max skills you're looking at a 26s cooldown, plus however long you were running for) in a battle that lasts between 7-15 minutes (roughly, not exactly checked every battle, though that's the range I estimate) - assuming a 15 minute game, that 30+ second downtime is 1/30th of the battle. A Swarmer will run off an ADS during their first encounter, and any additional encounter where the ADS tries to locate and remove the Swarmer but is run off is more time where they are incapable of assisting the team: despite what some might think about ADS pilots, a lot of us actually try to help with our presence, not just try to farm kills although without a good comm system it's not easy to use the full uplift and redeployment capacity, making clearing areas one of the simplest solutions to help. Anyway, point being that escaping with an Afterburner might preserve the ship, there is little to no way to fight a Swarmer because there is no skilful or tactical method to defeating them: a Forge Gunner can be dodged and the charge time can be manipulated to at least get return fire in, whereas the Swarmer is either dead in the first second or two, flee, or die in return. Just playing on my vehicle alt yesterday, some guy is swarming my grimsnes off an elevated position, he hits me with 3 swarms, which I easily tank and rep back in under ~10 seconds. We ran away pretty quickly of course and decided to come back after repping and kill him. So we turn around, come back, and shoot him 3 times, and he was dead. So lets analyze this fight and see what is actually OP. 1. He shoots me with full load from his swarm launcher. I am at no time in danger of dying because I can both tank through all his damage or just run away and escape all but the first volley. 2. We rep all the damage back in about 10 seconds, and decide to come back and kill him. 3. We come back and kill him, without any sort of danger to ourselves. So. If we look at the above, we see that a dropship is engaging the kind of fitting that is supposed to be its direct in game counter without any fear of death whatsoever, and completely overwhelming and killing them with trivial effort. What do you think is overpowered in this situation? Pro tip: it isnt the swarm launcher. Now on top of that think about the rest of the game for the dropship and the swarm launcher. If I continue playing in my drop ship, I can expect similar immunity to death unless I am attacked by 2-3 or more AV players simultaneously while I am in a bad position. I will go through the rest of the match slaughtering infantry with little or no opposition. If the swarm launcher continues playing in his swarm fit, he will spend the entire match desperately dodging enemy infantry while futilely trying to fire missiles at my dropship or other vehicles, all of which could end his clones pathetic life at their leisure. Sure sounds like swarm launchers are op, man they sure do need a nerf. Also buff dropships, I mean, they might die if a bunch of players switch to AV, sit in a single spot, and all fire at once if I make the mistake of sitting still like a ****** for too long!
Ace Boone Capital Acquisitions LLC 397	Posted - 2014.11.24 16:12:00 - [38] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . I warned everyone. But the AV babies cried that they couldn't solo the world with a no skill weapon. Who ever said swarms require no skill is just fooling themselves , other infantry , ADS's , DS's , HAV's and there pilots , drive by LAV's with multiple jump out's , Scout's , Commando's and stationary turrets are all pointed at swarmer's . You have to wait for the lock-on , have position , track the vehicle and not loose it , also readjust your positioning so your not surprised by infantry as well as vehicles . You people are silly that keep calling swarms , " No-Skill " .... your easily the ones that don't use them enough because if you did you would know better . It doesn't matter how much you have in them and what you claim , the fact that you down play the risks leaves one to question if you actually know what your talking about . Lol, you have to keep it inside of a huge lock-in box, and release the trigger. WOW. MUCH SKILL Only loyal to the republic.
Supernus Gigas The Cooked Goose Coalition 996	Posted - 2014.11.24 17:20:00 - [39] - Quote Pepperoni NiPPles wrote: the forge needs its splash damage back! It is a bit of nuisance not having it. It's not that big of a deal either seeing as most kills are direct shots anyways, but I'd really like to see CCP's justification behind it. "Hey, is the Forge Gun OP against infantry right now?" "Why, no. No it is not. In fact, ever since we nerfed the splash damage and radius a few patches back we've had almost no complaints. Although the community has recently been on fire about issues regarding Scouts and HMG Sentinels maybe we should put more focus into these issues." "I agree. Removing the Forge Gun splash damage completely it is!" "But that's not even a prob-" "Well I'm going to get some coffee. Want some?" "But Forge Gun splash isn't even an iss-" "No coffee? Alright then, see ya later!" "But..." *FIRE UP THE HEAVY MEAT GRINDER! WE'RE HAVING CLONE BURGERS TONIGHT, BOYS!*
Operative 1174 Uuali the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 118	Posted - 2014.11.24 17:34:00 - [40] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I love how when its something that affects DS and ADS its a problem...... but if it were HAV then it would be fair game... I think it is time to spin the vehicle game off from this dead infantry game. Call it EVE:CAVALRY or EVE:METAL. I don't know, I'd settle for EVE:NOW WE CAN HAVE SOME FUN I'm better than laser focused; I'm hybrid focused.

Operative 1174 Uuali the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 118	Posted - 2014.11.24 17:37:00 - [41] - Quote Ace Boone wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . I warned everyone. But the AV babies cried that they couldn't solo the world with a no skill weapon. Who ever said swarms require no skill is just fooling themselves , other infantry , ADS's , DS's , HAV's and there pilots , drive by LAV's with multiple jump out's , Scout's , Commando's and stationary turrets are all pointed at swarmer's . You have to wait for the lock-on , have position , track the vehicle and not loose it , also readjust your positioning so your not surprised by infantry as well as vehicles . You people are silly that keep calling swarms , " No-Skill " .... your easily the ones that don't use them enough because if you did you would know better . It doesn't matter how much you have in them and what you claim , the fact that you down play the risks leaves one to question if you actually know what your talking about . Lol, you have to keep it inside of a huge lock-in box, and release the trigger. WOW. MUCH SKILL Yeah, I use them. They are easy mode. My kid created a character and used one to destroy a tank. He just stood there. He's 7. So, yeah too effing easy. Oh well, they handed you scrubs the cloakGÇª I'm better than laser focused; I'm hybrid focused.
Operative 1174 Uuali the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 118	Posted - 2014.11.24 17:41:00 - [42] - Quote Atiim wrote: Given how most 1v1s I've been in against ADSs have involved them shooting missiles at me, I can safely say that it requires more than simply "looking" at the ADS to destroy it. Though I find that ironic because to kill an Infantry with Missiles, you don't actually aim but rotate the nose of the ADS. Which, also means that you only kill them by looking at them and pressing R1 repeatedly. Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . Swarms require many skills, such as positioning, preparation, timing, situational awareness, flight path predictions, enemy movement path predictions, etc. Though given how you find ADSs to be UP along with Scouts, I'm 95% sure that you're to terrible of a player to assess skill and it's perquisites. That aside, the actual reason why SLs are more common than FGs is because the amount of suits that can use FGs vs those that can only use SLs are 2:7. Obviously people are going to invest into Swarms for AV as opposed to grinding for a new Dropsuit that they'll only use a few times. Not that it matters. Gunnlogies and Pythons are far more common than their armored counterparts, yet do you see Swarmers and Forgers crying about it? No? Then HTFU. OMFG! Lol, assess the flight path. Yeah, get on a roof, pick your teeth til something comes along and aim. You TANKOPHOBIC "Pro AVers" forget that everybody else can and has used swarms. We chose to not focus on scrub tactics because we don't have as big of a phobia about tanks and DS being on the same field. There are walls and buildings in this game. Use them. I'm better than laser focused; I'm hybrid focused.
Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 283	Posted - 2014.11.24 17:46:00 - [43] - Quote Destroyed an Incubus today with a Caldari Commando...my first ADS kill and I feel just sad about it. I should be happy and laughing my butt off but its just sad to me. I hated ADS pilots but they really need some love and a home. The State will always survive.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 582	Posted - 2014.11.24 18:02:00 - [44] - Quote I hate dropships, and especially rooftop tactics...primarily because the only counter to beat them is to join them. Literally every dropship pilot who feels it is their job to litter the rooftops and storage tanks with uplinks irritates me. I understand the preemptive planning involved. "What if they spam vehicles? We will want the high ground to be safe from infantry so we can forge snipe. Also, I just need to turn down my sensitivity so I can hit those crazy flying bastards and I'll need to turn it up again for decent gun play when I get back to the real game of infantry combat." There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]
Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 283	Posted - 2014.11.24 18:13:00 - [45] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: I hate dropships, and especially rooftop tactics...primarily because the only counter to beat them is to join them. Literally every dropship pilot who feels it is their job to litter the rooftops and storage tanks with uplinks irritates me. I understand the preemptive planning involved. "What if they spam vehicles? We will want the high ground to be safe from infantry so we can forge snipe. Also, I just need to turn down my sensitivity so I can hit those crazy flying bastards and I'll need to turn it up again for decent gun play when I get back to the real game of infantry combat." That has nothing to do with anything being discussed but thanks for sharing. The State will always survive.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 619	Posted - 2014.11.24 18:44:00 - [46] - Quote Hell I still use my Ishokune Assault Forge to **** ADS especially now that they can't fit them very well. I can knock proto ADS out of the sky in 3 hits (2 hits if its an incubus and it takes a shot to the massive weakpoints on its sides) and my fit isn't even optimal damage. Swarms good pilots can escape from but you can't escape a proto assault forge unless you are lucky to avoid their shots. Which granted and has been stated that's why you don't see so many forge guns. That's also why you mostly see hmgs and shotgun scouts. Forge guns take a lot of skill to hit an ADS spazzing out in the sky, swarms auto follow, just like hmgs and shotgun cloaked scouts is a sure fire way to ensure you kill someone before dying and come out with a positive K/DR. Ease of use will always dictate popularity. Forge guns are still beast in the right hands, just they aren't as popular since swarms became viable AV weapons again. PS. ADS were fine until the CPM had em nerfed, should've fought harder Rhadithmus or however you spell his name... If ADS are going to be the LAVs of the skies I think they should cost the same as the more durable but slower STD dropships.
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1139	Posted - 2014.11.24 21:31:00 - [47] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . I warned everyone. But the AV babies cried that they couldn't solo the world with a no skill weapon. Who ever said swarms require no skill is just fooling themselves , other infantry , ADS's , DS's , HAV's and there pilots , drive by LAV's with multiple jump out's , Scout's , Commando's and stationary turrets are all pointed at swarmer's . You have to wait for the lock-on , have position , track the vehicle and not loose it , also readjust your positioning so your not surprised by infantry as well as vehicles . You people are silly that keep calling swarms , " No-Skill " .... your easily the ones that don't use them enough because if you did you would know better . It doesn't matter how much you have in them and what you claim , the fact that you down play the risks leaves one to question if you actually know what your talking about . The biggest lie you can tell yourself is that swarms take skill. Being an ADS we have stuff to worry about too. We have to worry about Rammers, Railgun tanks, indestructable installations in the redline always there to make your job harder, SWARMS, collision because flying has Y plane, and RDV's. That takes a lot more skill than using swarms. Also don't forget, other infantry have those problems, not just swarms. Swarms are about as ease mode you can get. Chocolate Juice
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5058	Posted - 2014.11.24 21:38:00 - [48] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . I warned everyone. But the AV babies cried that they couldn't solo the world with a no skill weapon. Who ever said swarms require no skill is just fooling themselves , other infantry , ADS's , DS's , HAV's and there pilots , drive by LAV's with multiple jump out's , Scout's , Commando's and stationary turrets are all pointed at swarmer's . You have to wait for the lock-on , have position , track the vehicle and not loose it , also readjust your positioning so your not surprised by infantry as well as vehicles . You people are silly that keep calling swarms , " No-Skill " .... your easily the ones that don't use them enough because if you did you would know better . It doesn't matter how much you have in them and what you claim , the fact that you down play the risks leaves one to question if you actually know what your talking about . Dust has no risks. Especially when most of you terrible AV and are using the militia suit and use it in a completely reactionary manner instead of spawning with a minmando off the bat. It's my fault FA exists. Direct your rage to me.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1311	Posted - 2014.11.24 23:13:00 - [49] - Quote So I hear a lot of complaining, is there legitimacy to the tears or just butthurt over the loss of god mode? What metric should be used to objectively evaluate this? What is the average number of kills/spawn for both HAV and DS? What should it be? How many swarms should be lost for every vehicle lost? Honestly, if we are talking truly balanced we should see a 1:1 ratio, if we balance by ISK, maybe a 3:1. I can't imagine any vehicle user being happy with these numbers though, I suspect it is closer to 15-25 kills per ADS spawn and 10 for tanks. What do vehicle users think it should be? Because, that's why.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 183	Posted - 2014.11.24 23:39:00 - [50] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: So I hear a lot of complaining, is there legitimacy to the tears or just butthurt over the loss of god mode? What metric should be used to objectively evaluate this? What is the average number of kills/spawn for both HAV and DS? What should it be? How many swarms should be lost for every vehicle lost? Honestly, if we are talking truly balanced we should see a 1:1 ratio, if we balance by ISK, maybe a 3:1. I can't imagine any vehicle user being happy with these numbers though, I suspect it is closer to 15-25 kills per ADS spawn and 10 for tanks. What do vehicle users think it should be? It's just inescapable swarms that are the issue, it's like I'm fighting the red line timer Pilots don't like forge gunners, but they respect them because it takes skill. Which linked to the OPs post is sad as swarms are now the go to AV Plus the whole buff something whilst nerfing it's target again kinda sucks

Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1311	Posted - 2014.11.25 00:13:00 - [51] - Quote To put it in perspective the most OP dropsuit probably has an average kdr below 2. Probably the lowest kdr belongs to a swarm fit. Because, that's why.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1311	Posted - 2014.11.25 00:41:00 - [52] - Quote You know how you can tell swarms are OP? Because tankers wear a swarm fit in their tank and when they see another tank they pop out and insta-kill them using no-skill swarms. Oh wait, I've never seen anybody do that. It's probably because they are proud tankers and decided that it is unfair gameplay to jump out of their tank in an OP suit to kill a hapless victim. Oh wait... Ok, I think there are some tweaks that should be made and ADS prices should drop, but it is also clear that vehicle users have a double standard and believe that vehicles should make them more powerful than any infantry, even those specifically designed to kill them. Because, that's why.
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 15194	Posted - 2014.11.25 01:04:00 - [53] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: To put it in perspective the most OP dropsuit probably has an average kdr below 2. Probably the lowest kdr belongs to a swarm fit. How much does a fully fit dropsuit cost? You can make cheap suits work, you CANT make cheap ships work against anything but no or bad AV. It basically HAS to be fully kitted, or you'll just lose to math when the AV shows up. Do you deploy dropsuits with RDVs? Can dropsuits be destroyed before they deploy? Can they be destroyed by the RDV as they deploy? Can RDVs randomly destroy them throughout the match? Do dropsuits get knocked into walls and explode by the weapons that do the most damage to them? Ever lose your dropsuit to a null cannon (orbit, do it). Whens the last time you lost your dropsuit because you had to pull some craxy maneuver to drop out of sight, miscalculated by the tiniest little bit, gently bumped the ground and went up in flames? KDR is a worthless metric, particularly when we spend VASTLY more ISK on average. And of course, when infantry goes 45/2, its nothing to see, but if an ADS goes 25/1, the sky is falling Flight Academy coming soon(tm) to my YouTube Fly Safe
castba Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 659	Posted - 2014.11.25 01:44:00 - [54] - Quote TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: Hell I still use my Ishokune Assault Forge to ** ADS especially now that they can't fit them very well. I can knock proto ADS out of the sky in 3 hits (2 hits if its an incubus and it takes a shot to the massive weakpoints on its sides) and my fit isn't even optimal damage. Swarms good pilots can escape from but you can't escape a proto assault forge unless you are lucky to avoid their shots. Which granted and has been stated that's why you don't see so many forge guns. That's also why you mostly see hmgs and shotgun scouts. Forge guns take a lot of skill to hit an ADS spazzing out in the sky, swarms auto follow, just like hmgs and shotgun cloaked scouts is a sure fire way to ensure you kill someone before dying and come out with a positive K/DR. Ease of use will always dictate popularity. Forge guns are still beast in the right hands, just they aren't as popular since swarms became viable AV weapons again. PS. ADS were fine until the CPM had em nerfed, should've fought harder Rhadithmus or however you spell his name...** If ADS are going to be the LAVs of the skies I think they should cost the same as the more durable but slower STD dropships. PS. PS. ADV and Proto Turrets Large and small seriously need a price drop. Most the reasons why a Proto HAV or Proto ADS cost over 500k isk is because of how stupid expensive the proto turrets are. lol please. The overwhelming "people's selection" for CPM was too busy fighting on Destiny to bother fighting for ADS's. "When everything is OP, nothing is" - CCP Ratatti
DUST Fiend Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 15194	Posted - 2014.11.25 02:09:00 - [55] - Quote Oh look, another forum nobody spouting off about things they know nothing about Ahh, it's refreshing Flight Academy coming soon(tm) to my YouTube Fly Safe
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1339	Posted - 2014.11.25 02:20:00 - [56] - Quote Sir Dukey wrote: Forgeguns were replaced by swarms. Reason: Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well . This kid has a brain. Thank you Sir Dukey for pointing this out for me so i don't need to say it. Forgeguns require skill, swarms do not. Swarms are just as if not more effective as well Swarms are such braindead AV no skill needed to use it. You just need to abuse auto lock that Swarms have and get the same result as using a forge gun. Except with a forge gun you get a thing called respect that forge gunners deserve. Don't get me wrong using easy mode things like Cal scout, RR and swarms maybe fun and easy to use but earning that ADS kill with a Forge gun feels better Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)
castba Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 659	Posted - 2014.11.25 04:14:00 - [57] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Oh look, another forum nobody spouting off about things they know nothing about Ahh, it's refreshing I presume that is in reference to me? If so, yes I read Judge's tirade/explanation thread, yet there he was showing up on Destiny vids during the time he didn't have access to the internet. Just drawing one's own conclusion. More than happy to be a forum nobody. "When everything is OP, nothing is" - CCP Ratatti
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1006	Posted - 2014.11.25 04:26:00 - [58] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Just playing on my vehicle alt yesterday, some guy is swarming my grimsnes off an elevated position, he hits me with 3 swarms, which I easily tank and rep back in under ~10 seconds. We ran away pretty quickly of course and decided to come back after repping and kill him. So we turn around, come back, and shoot him 3 times, and he was dead. Firstly, that is a Grimsnes, not an Incubus. Grimmies have better overall tank: higher base HP; more slots, so higher potential buffer and/or repair rate; more ancillary slots, especially for the Grimly, letting you have full tank and AB and/or scanner (for IDing enemies), damage mod (higher chance to one-shot) or mCRU (for pilot points and/or people to drop out near enemy AV, it you're lucky.) Secondly, your engagement happened exactly as I stated: you ran away to rep up after giving the Swarmer 75-150WP (triple what you got for killing them.) As an Incubus, you would have had less time to identify the AVer (because you would have had to run earlier,due to lower tank.) Is that, you shot and hit three times (point: duration of the second engagement)? Did they fire back at all (point: depending on length of engagement determines how many more WP he farmed off of you)? Were they prepared for you (point: if prepared,the impulse effects are in play)? Was it an actually attack run on that Swarmer specifically, and they had remained in the same place (point: if no location change then a bad AVer; if not specifically targeting them, then more likely to be chance that aided the kill)? Vesta Opalus wrote: 1. He shoots me with full load from his swarm launcher. I am at no time in danger of dying because I can both tank through all his damage or just run away and escape all but the first volley. As I referred to above, the Grimsnes is far more resilient than the Incubus, so it is disingenuous of you to apply the exact same principles. Additionally, if you are able to outrep a solo Swarmer that suggests that (without specific numbers) that you have a high SP investment and reasonably high-grade modules and the Swarmer was using low-grade modules/weapons. Without numbers I can only guess that the target was using militia or STD level Swarms (presumably STD, due yo your statement of three volleys.) Even a STD level swarm does 260/missile; 1040/volley; 3120/magazine (without skills: roughly 610 DPS including lock-on/lock-on delay; 732 DPS vs armour; 549 vs 1 Hardener); 325 DPS including reload (no reload speed bonuses whatsoever.) What these numbers suggest is that even without any skills (so that would assume an Aur/LP version) at all, the STD swarm launcher has the capacity to do serious damage to an armour vehicle in a short period of time. Vesta Opalus wrote: 2. We rep all the damage back in about 10 seconds, and decide to come back and kill him. As above, I gather from your statements that you are using a primarily rep-tanked fit, presumably around 250-300/s. Assuming a STD level enemy (see above numbers) then we can reasonably assume that you'd need 3 Complex Light Armour Repairer (a relatively high SP investment) or several lower-grade Heavy Repairers with maxed Repair Systems Skill (a high SP investment; also certainly requiring a reasonable degree of Armour Fitting Optimisation) such that the difference in invested SP is incredibly disproportionate. Without the invested repair SP, the Grimsnesis most certainly not capable of resisting even a STD Swarm Launcher 'without fear of death.'. Stating that an entirely uninvested AV should be able to remove a medium-investment+ vehicle used with any level of certainty is frankly laughable. Considering that the above list of skills is ignoring any other SP invested on either side: even assuming STD through Aur/LP, the Swarm is on at least a comparably even footing, while having the inherent advantages built-in of lock-on mechanisms, tracking projectiles and impulse effects. Vesta Opalus wrote: 3. We come back and kill him, without any sort of danger to ourselves. As part of my above questions touched upon, what was the situation when you returned? Were they in the same location? Had they been distracted (on their roof) by infantry? What were they engaged in doing as you came back? What I am asking is, were they specifically engaging you (on the roof, away from enemy infantry, giving them freedom from that distraction) and thus when you returned, if you were not almost immediately under fire then I can only presume a low experience (not simply low SP) player. If you were under fire immediately, how was the engagement for your gunner, and what were the impulse effects like? How effective a team are you both? As a gunner for Pvt Numnutz, I can make shots that he,when he guns, finds difficult - we've flown dozens, maybe hundreds, of hours together I can anticipate him and the dropship. In other words, as a team are you more effective than as two separate players? Do you feel that 2v1 is unfair? If not, why should the 1 be able to fight you both off? Vesta Opalus wrote: So. If we look at the above, we see that a dropship is engaging the kind of fitting that is supposed to be its direct in game counter without any fear of death whatsoever, and completely overwhelming and killing them with trivial effort. What do you think is overpowered in this situation? Pro tip: it isnt the swarm launcher. Pro tip: a single anecdote about one likely low experience/low SP player being killed by a two-merc dropship (one that is more resilient than the ADS which most talk about and have been referring to) is not a good argument for the ADS and DSs in general being overpowered. Especially when your statement of 'no fear of death whatsoever' shows either an entire lack of reality when it comes to DPS, or failing to acknowledge the skill/SP investment difference between you and your opponent. [Continued below] Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1006	Posted - 2014.11.25 04:27:00 - [59] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Now on top of that think about the rest of the game for the dropship and the swarm launcher. If I continue playing in my drop ship, I can expect similar immunity to death unless I am attacked by 2-3 or more AV players simultaneously while I am in a bad position. I will go through the rest of the match slaughtering infantry with little or no opposition. Again, your statements of 'immunity to death' are vastly overstated. 2 STD swarms in coordination will cause over 6000 damage to your dropship in around 5 seconds. Now consider a solo player with actual SP investment (faster lock-on time; increased damage per volley from Proficiency and/or damage mods; suits bonused for the task) who will be much more capable of dealing with you - then consider that we're still talking about a two-merc (multiple players) Grimsnes (more resilient than the Incubus) and that solo player can potentially down your Grimsnes alone (MinCom5, Prof 5, 1 CxDMod in a STD suit with CBR7 costs around 25,000 ISK, and deals around 1450 DPS vs Armour: still think you can take it?) and mitigate the major downside of AV, being vulnerable to infantry. Your statements have been unbalanced from the beginning and show bias or a lack of knowledge how SP interacts with the power of AV. An ADS is of at least equal SP investment to a PRO AVer and have a far greater investment in terms of ISK: the issue is not the greater total investment, it is that a single mid-invested Swarmer can render a single fully invested ADS near obsolete with one volley - run or die, because there is no fighting back, and you have to make that decision almost immediately following the first impact on your shields. Vesta Opalus wrote: If the swarm launcher continues playing in his swarm fit, he will spend the entire match desperately dodging enemy infantry while futilely trying to fire missiles at my dropship or other vehicles, all of which could end his clones pathetic life at their leisure. Firstly, one of your points was about the Swarmer being elevated. Alongside the Commando suit a Swarmer can mitigate the weaknesses of carrying a Swarm Launcher (weakness to other infantry), gain the benefits of being the second toughest non-Sentinel dropsuit (I believe Assaults can be tougher if they choose to be.) Combined, elevated Swarmer Commandos can lock down an area and farm an inordinate amount of WPs from enemy vehicles: that they have invested SP is perfectly reasonable, as is the reward for driving vehicles away; but what is not legitimate is the complete ease with which someone can do so - firing a Swarm is relatively effortless and there is next to tracking a target, making application of damage incredibly effective. So, your point quoted above says that the Swarmer must avoid infantry (mitigated by using a Commando, or elevation, or another vehicle to evade infantry/follow the target); the engagement of vehicles is futile (yet heavily rewarded and also incredibly simple to be effective); and that everything can end their lives at leisure - as far as the ADS and DSs generally are concerned, it most definitely is not leisurely, due to not only having to deal with impulse effects but also because the engagement is mostly instigated by the Swarmer, giving them first-mover advantages. Essentially what I am saying is that the tribulations of the Swarmer are pretty damn light. Vesta Opalus wrote: Sure sounds like swarm launchers are op, man they sure do need a nerf. Also buff dropships, I mean, they might die if a bunch of players switch to AV, sit in a single spot, and all fire at once if I make the mistake of sitting still like a **** for too long! I think most people I have seen posting on the anti-Swarm side of things are calling for a change in the modus operandi: the simplicity of use and ease of damage application are overly rewarded and have led to an enormous and inordinate increase in Swarm usage because it is so simple to just strip a heap of WPs from any vehicle that pokes its turret up without having to put much effort or thought into it. If Swarms changed such that they required more effort and personal skill in a way that did not make the far more restrictive Forge Gun obsolete, they would of course get corresponding buffs to keep their power at the relevant point on the power curve. At the moment, Swarms are operating far more effectively than any other form of AV. Nothing Certain wrote:** You know how you can tell swarms are OP? Because tankers wear a swarm fit in their tank and when they see another tank they pop out and insta-kill them using no-skill swarms. Oh wait, I've never seen anybody do that. I see many tankers (and one dropship pilot) who do this: it's either a Swarm, Forge or HMG. Many times have I dropped down above an HAV only for them to pop out and launch their volley/glowy blue ball at me. Insta-kill is some hyperbole, but it is almost certainly insta-save, because the ADS either dodges the FG (or gets hit) making it an FG/ADS fight...except they can hop in to their probably regen'd HAV/they continue firing at you as you frantically try to destroy their HAV before they slap you out of the sky; or if Swarms, you either finish off their HAV in a shot or two and try and run, or just straight up run. [Continued below] Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1006	Posted - 2014.11.25 04:28:00 - [60] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: It's probably because they are proud tankers and decided that it is unfair gameplay to jump out of their tank in an OP suit to kill a hapless victim. Oh wait... Not sure what you're saying. It's pretty ridiculous that people can teleport in/out of vehicles, especially enclosed ones, in the blink of an eye. As a staunch ADS pilot I often go down with my ship unless I see a specific opportunity to use my links (my Logi-pilot suit having an Axis rep, Links and a Flaylock making it unsuitable for dropping into the fight) or otherwise go down with it to gain Intel on what killed me. It's far too easy to escape a dead vehicle - HAV pilots drop out a moment before death and DSs have way too long before death. I'd love to see pilots (specifically HAV/DS driver/operators, maybe also gunners but not passengers like the LAV side seat or dropship bay seats) have a good 2-5 second delay on vehicle exiting as they have to unbuckle themselves and climb out. Nothing Certain wrote: Ok, I think there are some tweaks that should be made and ADS prices should drop, but it is also clear that vehicle users have a double standard and believe that vehicles should make them more powerful than any infantry, even those specifically designed to kill them. I don't know. There are many pilots who have posted ADS/AV feedback in the last couple of months who have been advocating balance, and the majority of people o see posting about Swarms simply dislike the simplicity of them allowing them to outperform all other AV. Again, I'm an ADS pilot and will always be so: been there in the Dark Ages of 400m Swarms, 1k Forges and insane redline Rails. I want to see AV that can kill me but I want to be able to remove them if I am skilful enough: Swarmers I cannot fight, because no amount of skill will help, only running immediately and at top speed, or double stacking hardeners and hoping one of your spammed lands vaguely near them before cooldowns kick in. Oh, and the other thing I want is to actually get to do the strafing runs that I am told by Rattati I should do. I'll happily take an EHP reduction if I can actually put enough fire down to make strafing feasible instead of the two missiles per run we have right now...grumble... Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.

Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1145	Posted - 2014.11.25 04:36:00 - [61] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: To put it in perspective the most OP dropsuit probably has an average kdr below 2. Probably the lowest kdr belongs to a swarm fit. How much does a fully fit dropsuit cost? You can make cheap suits work, you CANT make cheap ships work against anything but no or bad AV. It basically HAS to be fully kitted, or you'll just lose to math when the AV shows up. Do you deploy dropsuits with RDVs? Can dropsuits be destroyed before they deploy? Can they be destroyed by the RDV as they deploy? Can RDVs randomly destroy them throughout the match? Do dropsuits get knocked into walls and explode by the weapons that do the most damage to them? Ever lose your dropsuit to a null cannon (orbit, do it). Whens the last time you lost your dropsuit because you had to pull some craxy maneuver to drop out of sight, miscalculated by the tiniest little bit, gently bumped the ground and went up in flames? KDR is a worthless metric, particularly when we spend VASTLY more ISK on average. And of course, when infantry goes 45/2, its nothing to see, but if an ADS goes 25/1, the sky is falling You now hold the world record for Dust 514 player with highest IQ. Please sir, may I ask for your autograph. Chocolate Juice
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 13957	Posted - 2014.11.25 16:27:00 - [62] - Quote Bahirae Serugiusu wrote: Within four matches of unlocking the ADV Swarm Launcher I killed two dropships, three LAV, and a Soma with four basic damage mods on a Caldari Assault. I fail to see the problem. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
RayRay James Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 760	Posted - 2014.11.25 18:38:00 - [63] - Quote Atiim wrote: Bahirae Serugiusu wrote: Within four matches of unlocking the ADV Swarm Launcher I killed two dropships, three LAV, and a Soma with four basic damage mods on a Caldari Assault. I fail to see the problem. You don't see a problem that a person took out 6 vehicles in four matches single-handedly using advanced gear? Of course you don't.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 13957	Posted - 2014.11.25 19:21:00 - [64] - Quote RayRay James wrote: Atiim wrote: Bahirae Serugiusu wrote: Within four matches of unlocking the ADV Swarm Launcher I killed two dropships, three LAV, and a Soma with four basic damage mods on a Caldari Assault. I fail to see the problem. You don't see a problem that a person took out 6 vehicles in four matches single-handedly using advanced gear? Of course you don't. Haha. Well first, let's look at the numbers: -2 DSs -3 LAVs -1 Militia HAV She said that these kills were obtained over the span of 4 matches, which means that every match she killed about 1 DS and 1 LAV. That's nothing special, and actually pathetic for a dedicated AVer (unless that's the only vehicles fielded). That in mind, I have no doubt that the Militia HAV was piloted by someone incompetent. Even if it wasn't, that is a MLT fit being pit against an ADV weapon with 4 Damage Amplifiers. Even if they were both of equal skill (which I doubt, as most players in MLT gear aren't). I'm not surprised about the Dropships, as most of them are either poorly flown, poorly fitted, or used as throwaways (usually it's a mix of all 3). Not even going to waste keystrokes on the LAVs. --- The only problem I see is your lack of intelligence and apparent inability to interpret data. Which is sad, because I could've sworn that they taught those skills in Grammar School. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19376	Posted - 2014.11.25 19:36:00 - [65] - Quote Meanwhile the officer placon is just hammering everything. :3 You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Glorious pink victory has been achieved.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19376	Posted - 2014.11.25 19:39:00 - [66] - Quote RayRay James wrote: Atiim wrote: Bahirae Serugiusu wrote: Within four matches of unlocking the ADV Swarm Launcher I killed two dropships, three LAV, and a Soma with four basic damage mods on a Caldari Assault. I fail to see the problem. You don't see a problem that a person took out 6 vehicles in four matches single-handedly using advanced gear? Of course you don't. Good grief. Do you genuinely believe that someone killing a handful of LAVs, a militia tank, and a couple of dropships over the course of four matches is OP? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Glorious pink victory has been achieved.
Feldt-Grace Anaheim Electronics Manufacture Company 34	Posted - 2014.11.25 19:40:00 - [67] - Quote Why have the Caldari Senitel not a Bonus on the Forge Gun? <.< TRANS-AM! Gundam, DUST and more Gameplays
CrotchGrab 360 Yon Hyaku Nijuu Moyase 1528	Posted - 2014.11.25 19:41:00 - [68] - Quote There never normally is that many people with forge guns trying to take down tanks, I've even been in games where I've been the only one with ANY av, against 3 tanks. Can you believe that people haven't learned to AV by now and some (very rare) games will be spammed with tanks? I'd say V vs AV is in a good enough place now that, with a little effort (and probably after getting blapped a few times by a rail) you can solo tanks all game long. Delb0y certainly didn't like my proto forge on my cal sent that's for sure. If you can't rely on anyone else, do it your god damned self. But please people, militia amarr heavy frame, militia forge gun, that's all I need you to have to help me, if I can solo tanks then just 2 of us will be crushing. DUST VIDEOS
Mobius Wyvern Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 5451	Posted - 2014.11.25 20:16:00 - [69] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I love how when its something that affects DS and ADS its a problem...... but if it were HAV then it would be fair game... You act as if current Swarms aren't instant death to HAVs as well. I can solo a Complex fit Gunnlogi with 3 turrets using just a Caldari Assault A/1 and a Wyrkomi Swarm Launcher. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Big miku Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.11.25 22:51:00 - [70] - Quote I specced out of Forgeguns. The utility as an area denier and man slayer was removed, tanks are not as powerful as they were when i last played and swarm launcher commando is just so much better than FG Sentinel. FG used to be Point protection and Vehicle Slayer, now they are novelty.

Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 153	Posted - 2014.11.26 00:12:00 - [71] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: True Adamance wrote: I love how when its something that affects DS and ADS its a problem...... but if it were HAV then it would be fair game... You act as if current Swarms aren't instant death to HAVs as well. I can solo a Complex fit Gunnlogi with 3 turrets using just a Caldari Assault A/1 and a Wyrkomi Swarm Launcher. You act as if True is either not a tanker or is a bad tanker. Neither of these things is actually, well, true, of course. IIRC, right now he's not running tanks because a Gunloggi beats a Madrugar at 99% of HAV stuffs. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
ER-Bullitt 1668	Posted - 2014.11.26 00:38:00 - [72] - Quote Supernus Gigas wrote: Pepperoni NiPPles wrote: the forge needs its splash damage back! It is a bit of nuisance not having it. It's not that big of a deal either seeing as most kills are direct shots anyways, but I'd really like to see CCP's justification behind it. "Hey, is the Forge Gun OP against infantry right now?" "Why, no. No it is not. In fact, ever since we nerfed the splash damage and radius a few patches back we've had almost no complaints. Although the community has recently been on fire about issues regarding Scouts and HMG Sentinels maybe we should put more focus into these issues." "I agree. Removing the Forge Gun splash damage completely it is!" "But that's not even a prob-" "Well I'm going to get some coffee. Want some?" "But Forge Gun splash isn't even an iss-" "No coffee? Alright then, see ya later!" "But..." I lol'd. Havent played in a few months ... did they really completely remove splash damage from the forge gun? "You insulted my boat. No one insults my boat. It no doubt cost more then the entire village you came from." - Roman837
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 154	Posted - 2014.11.26 00:40:00 - [73] - Quote ER-Bullitt wrote: I lol'd. Havent played in a few months ... did they really completely remove splash damage from the forge gun? Sort of. The Assault forge still has splash damage, while the regular and breach variants do not. It's not like the AFG wasn't the best forge or anything already, amiright? Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
RayRay James Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 764	Posted - 2014.11.26 14:18:00 - [74] - Quote Atiim wrote: RayRay James wrote: Atiim wrote: Bahirae Serugiusu wrote: Within four matches of unlocking the ADV Swarm Launcher I killed two dropships, three LAV, and a Soma with four basic damage mods on a Caldari Assault. I fail to see the problem. You don't see a problem that a person took out 6 vehicles in four matches single-handedly using advanced gear? Of course you don't. Haha. Well first, let's look at the numbers: -2 DSs -3 LAVs -1 Militia HAV She said that these kills were obtained over the span of 4 matches, which means that every match she killed about 1 DS and 1 LAV. That's nothing special, and actually pathetic for a dedicated AVer (unless that's the only vehicles fielded). That in mind, I have no doubt that the Militia HAV was piloted by someone incompetent. Even if it wasn't, that is a MLT fit being pit against an ADV weapon with 4 Damage Amplifiers. Even if they were both of equal skill (which I doubt, as most players in MLT gear aren't). I'm not surprised about the Dropships, as most of them are either poorly flown, poorly fitted, or used as throwaways (usually it's a mix of all 3). Not even going to waste keystrokes on the LAVs. --- The only problem I see is your lack of intelligence and apparent inability to interpret data. Which is sad, because I could've sworn that they taught those skills in Grammar School. Wooooh, personal attacks, the absolute first thing to do on the internet when your argument is weak . I was very aware of how he was fit, what he was shooting at, and the possibility that the pilots on the other side were crap. Doesn't change my statement. You have rallied against vehicles for a very long time, I was absolutely not surprised at your sentiment towards the post. Like you, I have a very long time in this game. Unlike you, I like having vehicles being viable in this game and not WP-Pinatas for AV players. I'm all for balance and think in most instances, AV vs V is balanced. Swarms, in my opinion, are currently overpowered. I would have preferred CCP either introduce the vehicle nerfs OR the swarm buffs in the last patch, not both at the same time.
Feldt-Grace Anaheim Electronics Manufacture Company 38	Posted - 2014.11.26 16:35:00 - [75] - Quote @CCP: Can you change the name of the Forge Gun in the German version? From Infernogewehr to >Forge Gun< ?: 3 TRANS-AM! Gundam, DUST and more Gameplays
Finn Colman Immortal Guides 68	Posted - 2014.11.26 17:18:00 - [76] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Just playing on my vehicle alt yesterday, some guy is swarming my grimsnes off an elevated position, he hits me with 3 swarms, which I easily tank and rep back in under ~10 seconds. We ran away pretty quickly of course and decided to come back after repping and kill him. So we turn around, come back, and shoot him 3 times, and he was dead. So lets analyze this fight and see what is actually OP. 1. He shoots me with full load from his swarm launcher. I am at no time in danger of dying because I can both tank through all his damage or just run away and escape all but the first volley. 2. We rep all the damage back in about 10 seconds, and decide to come back and kill him. 3. We come back and kill him, without any sort of danger to ourselves. Tell me all about the secrets of unlocking the view distance of your client and at what point using what fit this was all done with. The little Min with the little voice.
Mobius Wyvern Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 5454	Posted - 2014.11.27 18:28:00 - [77] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: True Adamance wrote: I love how when its something that affects DS and ADS its a problem...... but if it were HAV then it would be fair game... You act as if current Swarms aren't instant death to HAVs as well. I can solo a Complex fit Gunnlogi with 3 turrets using just a Caldari Assault A/1 and a Wyrkomi Swarm Launcher. You act as if True is either not a tanker or is a bad tanker. Neither of these things is actually, well, true, of course. IIRC, right now he's not running tanks because a Gunloggi beats a Madrugar at 99% of HAV stuffs. The only real advantage the Madrugar has is passive armor repair. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
DarthPlagueis TheWise 434	Posted - 2014.11.27 18:30:00 - [78] - Quote Jesus. I'm only gone for two weeks, and blueberries are already making threads asking where I am. I'm better than swarms with my Forge. Slower, but better. F*k this cash grab fix the shit that matters: unkillable uplinks, invisible remotes on null cannon hack panels, etc.
TEBOW BAGGINS GREATNESS ACHIEVED THRU TROLLING 1362	Posted - 2014.11.27 19:18:00 - [79] - Quote there's no reason to fit one when swarms will do the job and are garunteed to path find their way to their target instead of having to aim AKA Zirzo Valcyn AFKing since 2012
Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 301	Posted - 2014.11.28 17:06:00 - [80] - Quote I've seen forge gunners in a LAV going around doing drivebys. Is that what the once proud Forge Guns been reduced to? The State will always survive.

KING CHECKMATE Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 5967	Posted - 2014.11.28 17:15:00 - [81] - Quote I still do very well with FG's. SPECIALLY vs Dropships. Sure i only use the MLT FG but hey.... XD Amarrian Born. State Patriot.


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