As for shield boosters I was considering submitting an idea for a Double Pulse Booster.

Current boosters give you 1900 Shield HP instantly.

What if Ancillary Shield Boosters applied 1200 in one pulse and another 1200 between 4-6 seconds later?

Absolutely. One of the most annoying parts of Armor Tanking before passive reps was the fact that I could take 15% armor damage, and either leave it unrepaired, or pop my repairer to fix it, but then was in danger while I cooled down. With a soft duration/cooldown system I can turn it on for say 5 seconds, and then when I turn it off I only need to cool it down for 5 seconds worth of activation, rather than cool down for the full duration.

Make vehicle modules work like cloaks and so many issues just go away.

I'd like to see CCP Rattati use EVE frigates as the template for redesigning the vehicles. Figure out some fits for max skilled pilots and "convert" them to DUST equivalents for a max skilled vehicle user with a level 5 pilot suit. Work your way backwards from there. Use frigates, logi frigates, interceptors, assault frigates, etc to get an idea of slots, PG, CPU, capacitor amount, recharge amount, module fitting costs, etc.

EVE has been balancing this stuff for over a decade. It makes sense to use it as a starting place for an overhaul.

Would it be terrible for all Lav's to get +1 slot in their off-rack?

They would have to be shorter durations module then to prevent exploitation.

I love the idea of being able to pulse my Armour Reps as my module recovers it charge over time, but if we start looking at stacked modules like Hardeners and Reps we run into trouble. If they are activated simultaneously in conjunction with other modules.

For example

Heavy Efficient Armour Repairer

Per Pulse 414 Armour
3 section pulse intervals
max 5 pulses

Total HP recovered = 2070 over 15 seconds

2070* 2= 4140 over 15 seconds

4140* 1.25 = 5175 EHP recovered over 15 seconds.

If that is the case then we need to also sit down with CCP to discuss every module, its implications, its fitting costs relevant to how they want them used, and all the OP possibilities like the ones I suggested.

Honestly have not played with LAV fitting all that much, but fairly reasonable. We just don't want to run into unkillable LAVs again like we had with the LLAV. Lemme look at some fittings a bit more.



So 345 HP/s.....with what sort of downtime?

I always kind of run into this awkward paradox of what sort of tanking shield and armor should be in Dust. Shields recharge on their own albeit slowly, yet the modules it fits encourage a more bursty type of regen. So if shield is slow recharge but also bursty, where does Armor come in exactly? What sort of uptime/downtime ratio do you see for armor/shield regen mods and where do you see their relative regen ability?

That's a really tough.

In EVE both regenerate in almost the same manner....just pulses, though Shields do get constant small regeneration....

On a scale of down times?

Not sure to be honest. Is all this being compiled into one larger presentation? If so perhaps we should agree on what mechanics, module values, etc we are going to work off first and make suggestions from there.

Indeed. I'm mostly a shield tanker in EVE but most of the shield mechanics in Dust don't really apply to EVE so it's tough to even make a comparison.

I mean one defining factor that I've found is that Shield Tanks, while capable of more burst tanking through Boosters, are rarely cap stable without high end gear. So if we look at the whole capacitor style module system, we could say that shield regen modules have strong regen, but discharge much faster than they recharge. Armor regen modules are more moderate benefit, but are closer to a 1:1 charge/discharge ratio.

Honestly have not played with LAV fitting all that much, but fairly reasonable. We just don't want to run into unkillable LAVs again like we had with the LLAV. Lemme look at some fittings a bit more.

Fair suggestion which I suppose is partly why Shield Modules are burst effects and shorter in duration than armour in Dust 514 given Capacitor is not possible.

E.G-
So if we assume Shield Boosters for example pulsed 3 times over activation for roughly 633 HP a pulse over a 12 second duration ( roughly 1900) while Armour pulses for 414 5 times over 15 seconds (2070) roughly fair once we start equating shield and armour values on vehicles.

Oh absolutely, the Logi Lav times were atrocious.
I'm just thinking that they're a little too squishy with 3 slots and very little support capabilities. I'm thinking maybe the Caldari and Amarr could be more on the combat side while Gallente and Minmatar could be a bit more skirmish/support.

Indeed. I'm mostly a shield tanker in EVE but most of the shield mechanics in Dust don't really apply to EVE so it's tough to even make a comparison.

I mean one defining factor that I've found is that Shield Tanks, while capable of more burst tanking through Boosters, are rarely cap stable without high end gear. So if we look at the whole capacitor style module system, we could say that shield regen modules have strong regen, but discharge much faster than they recharge. Armor regen modules are more moderate benefit, but are closer to a 1:1 charge/discharge ratio.

EDIT: I'd like to get this designed and rolled in with Racial Variations. Honestly I would prefer to get the Racial variants finished and rework modules for the first phase. Then pull in Pilot suits and Specialty Vehicles for the secondary phase.

Oh absolutely, the Logi Lav times were atrocious.
I'm just thinking that they're a little too squishy with 3 slots and very little support capabilities. I'm thinking maybe the Caldari and Amarr could be more on the combat side while Gallente and Minmatar could be a bit more skirmish/support.

The problem here is if we don't have capacitors, a tripple armor rep tank would be devastating since it abuses the fact that each repper basically has it's own " cap pool." That's part of why I think we need a real capacitor system in place as part of the overhaul.

I can't speak for LAV, and defer to your suggestions, but shouldn't they all be skirmishy?

Hmmmmmm very valid point. While I would love a true Cap system, I'm wondering if that's reasonable within the development cycle. The reason I went with the Pseudo cloak system was because that mechanic is already programmed into the game, so it would be easier to implement.

I wonder if you could give it a sort of stacking penalty, in that equipping an armor repper would decrease the recharge rate of armor reppers. So having more than 1 means more downtime for both?

Hmmmmmm very valid point. While I would love a true Cap system, I'm wondering if that's reasonable within the development cycle. The reason I went with the Pseudo cloak system was because that mechanic is already programmed into the game, so it would be easier to implement.

I wonder if you could give it a sort of stacking penalty, in that equipping an armor repper would decrease the recharge rate of armor reppers. So having more than 1 means more downtime for both?

I knew you would come, True Adamance

But really need everyone's thoughts on this project. We need vehicles for all races, not just Gallente and Caldari. And while we may not be getting the art assets for them now/ever, we can still design variants that *perform* exactly how the racial version would. At the least we can re-use the existing Cal/Gal models and put on a paint job to make them rusty/gold plated.

I've set up a spreadsheet outlining what the current values are, as well as lined up some design parameters. So far I've only fiddled with potential slot layouts, so lets get some discussion going on that first. Then we can tackle base HP, and save PG/CPU for last.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Mf8XDOBw6E-UUgvEYj1VpOsXidAR9RY5vYlYj_Ulyn0/edit?usp=sharing

Proposed Design Parameters
Caldari and Gallente are to have equal total HP but inverted Shield/Armor Values
Minmatar to have lowest total HP but highest speed
Amarr to have highest total HP but lowest speed
Caldari and Amarr slot layouts are to typically be inverses of each other
Minmatar to have equal highs and lows
In cases of an odd number of slots, Minmatar will favor High slots. Typically Inverse of Gallente in these cases
PG/CPU should encourage racial tanking type
Minmatar Armor and Shields are to be similar enough to facilitate Hybrid Tanking

minmatar will always have balanced slots ALWAYS.

minmatar will always have balanced slots ALWAYS.

They cannot have equivalent slot allocations and remain balanced therefore as primary shield tankers Minmatar should have access to extra high slots.

My thoughts on the matter. I don't pretend to know the numbers on tanks, so I'll let more capable people do that math. I do have a very good idea on how the turrets and vehicles should be designed, and their role on the battlefield.

TURRETS
Amarr Turret should be a sustained heavy laser, well suited to melting shields on tanks, LAV's and dropships. It needs to have a very slow turn speed to mitigate slaughtering infantry.

Minmatar Turret should be a pair of Autocannons in tandem, shooting large volumes of projectiles in a cone (Like the HMG) this cone is the opposite of the large blaster, and gets more accurate as you fire longer. It has the same profile as the CR and HMG, and is well suited to shredding armor tanks, LAV's and dropships. It has a decent turn speed, giving it a moderate ability to target infantry if allowed to spool up.

Amarr small turret should be similar to a buffed ScR, being a way to protect the tank from AV soldiers. It would function very similarly to a Rail Turret, although with a different damage profile.

Alternate Amarr small turret is a smaller version of the Main turret, made to sustain laser on targets to melt enemy targets.

Minmatar small turret is a mortar launcher. It has explosive damage profile and acts like a powerful mass driver with a small clip. It is designed to help the Minmatar tank in seige operations, as the turret is well suited to handling troops of footsoldiers. It has large impact damage as well, allowing it to help in AV operations against hardened targets.

Alternate Minmatar small turret is a mounted HMG, made to engage infantry and other Light Vehicles in combat at a decent range.

TANKS
Amarr tank is a behemoth. It's slow, with a huge armor tank and lots of lows for hardeners. It's made to break out of cover, harden and train that laser on something it needs dead. It's considered the "long range sustain" form of AV, being able to tank damage with repair until it gets primaried, in which it hardens and wheathers the onslaught.

It should get a class bonus to armor hardeners resistance, increasing the resistance and making them tough to take down while hardened.

Minmatar tank is a Lightning Bruiser. It has the lowest HP of all tanks, but is very fast, almost as fast as an LAV if running a fuel injector. It has a balanced slot layout and has slightly more shields than armor. It's versatility allows it to adapt to the battlefield, as it can run an armor base or shield base as needed. It's considered a "Medium Range Burst" form of AV, being able to engage and disengage quickly, using damage mods and fuel injectors to accomplish the task (Possibly with shield boosters or extra tank as needed).

It would get a class bonus to fuel injectors duration, allowing them to quickly traverse the battlefield as they engage or disengage

LAV's

Amarr LAV is an infantry support vehicle intended to quickly (figuretively) transport the slow amarrian troops to their destination. It is focused less on speed, and more on durability and infantry support. It would drive around with a high armor tank and harden if it encounters resistance. It would then drop off it's gunner and passenger and fall back a safe distance to support with turrets.

Class bonus would be to armor hardener duration, allowing them to safely traverse the battlefield in style.

Minmatar LAV is an infantry support vehicle meant to rapidly transport Minmatar to hot zones, and support them with Mortar turrets in order to breach entrenched positions (Such as those pesky amarr armor tankers). It would drive around at high speed, relying on it's manuverability and shield boosters to keep their shields up. So long as they keep moving, most AV should only have time to get 1 or two salvo's off if they are lucky. It would quickly get to the drop zone and have everyone but the gunner bail the LAV. The gunner stays in the turret to support, and hops out if the vehicle (or his safety) is in danger. To them, the LAV has served it's purpose, and they can call in another when they take the point.

Class bonus would be to fuel injector boost, allowing them to RAPIDLY traverse the battlefield (Think back to F1 tanks)

DROPSHIPS

I'm running out of room and time, but you get the picture. I'll throw in another post after I get home, Psych class is almost over.

TURRETS
Amarr Turret should be a sustained heavy laser, well suited to melting shields on tanks, LAV's and dropships. It needs to have a very slow turn speed to mitigate slaughtering infantry.

Minmatar Turret should be a pair of Autocannons in tandem, shooting large volumes of projectiles in a cone (Like the HMG) this cone is the opposite of the large blaster, and gets more accurate as you fire longer. It has the same profile as the CR and HMG, and is well suited to shredding armor tanks, LAV's and dropships. It has a decent turn speed, giving it a moderate ability to target infantry if allowed to spool up.

Amarr small turret should be similar to a buffed ScR, being a way to protect the tank from AV soldiers. It would function very similarly to a Rail Turret, although with a different damage profile.

Alternate Amarr small turret is a smaller version of the Main turret, made to sustain laser on targets to melt enemy targets.

Minmatar small turret is a mortar launcher. It has explosive damage profile and acts like a powerful mass driver with a small clip. It is designed to help the Minmatar tank in seige operations, as the turret is well suited to handling troops of footsoldiers. It has large impact damage as well, allowing it to help in AV operations against hardened targets.

Alternate Minmatar small turret is a mounted HMG, made to engage infantry and other Light Vehicles in combat at a decent range.

What about an artillery large turret for the Minmatar HAV? It would work like a mini-orbial. There would be a significant minimum radius where it couldn't fire (maybe 50-100m), with a long max range, and very slow rate of fire. This would be perfect for clearing rooftop campers, but be incredibly vulnerable to someone getting in close.

Please Velocet look

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgYXup2k4B8

7:25 onwards. How that's alpha.

My issue is how do you differentiate between the alpha potential of current Large missiles vs an arty turret?