Fair point on the slot layouts for the HAVs.

I will say though that's a bit of a nerf for the Gallente though, I have some concerns about shaving off 200 shield and 600 armor off the current amounts considering current AV stats.

Also do you think we should have different skills for the racial vehicles if we're still re-using the Cal/Gal art assets and lack racial turrets? I fear it may cause confusion for a lot of players, particularly ones new to vehicles/AV.

Randomized crap.

Indeed. Lots of good minds out there, plus having AV involved in the design of vehicles is a great way to avoid power creep.

Sidebar: Thoughts on a Swarm Launcher variant that specifically does EM damage? +20/-20 profile.

Absolutely. One of the most annoying parts of Armor Tanking before passive reps was the fact that I could take 15% armor damage, and either leave it unrepaired, or pop my repairer to fix it, but then was in danger while I cooled down. With a soft duration/cooldown system I can turn it on for say 5 seconds, and then when I turn it off I only need to cool it down for 5 seconds worth of activation, rather than cool down for the full duration.

Make vehicle modules work like cloaks and so many issues just go away.

Indeed. I'm mostly a shield tanker in EVE but most of the shield mechanics in Dust don't really apply to EVE so it's tough to even make a comparison.

I mean one defining factor that I've found is that Shield Tanks, while capable of more burst tanking through Boosters, are rarely cap stable without high end gear. So if we look at the whole capacitor style module system, we could say that shield regen modules have strong regen, but discharge much faster than they recharge. Armor regen modules are more moderate benefit, but are closer to a 1:1 charge/discharge ratio.

Honestly have not played with LAV fitting all that much, but fairly reasonable. We just don't want to run into unkillable LAVs again like we had with the LLAV. Lemme look at some fittings a bit more.

Indeed. I'm mostly a shield tanker in EVE but most of the shield mechanics in Dust don't really apply to EVE so it's tough to even make a comparison.

I mean one defining factor that I've found is that Shield Tanks, while capable of more burst tanking through Boosters, are rarely cap stable without high end gear. So if we look at the whole capacitor style module system, we could say that shield regen modules have strong regen, but discharge much faster than they recharge. Armor regen modules are more moderate benefit, but are closer to a 1:1 charge/discharge ratio.

EDIT: I'd like to get this designed and rolled in with Racial Variations. Honestly I would prefer to get the Racial variants finished and rework modules for the first phase. Then pull in Pilot suits and Specialty Vehicles for the secondary phase.

I knew you would come, True Adamance

But really need everyone's thoughts on this project. We need vehicles for all races, not just Gallente and Caldari. And while we may not be getting the art assets for them now/ever, we can still design variants that *perform* exactly how the racial version would. At the least we can re-use the existing Cal/Gal models and put on a paint job to make them rusty/gold plated.

I've set up a spreadsheet outlining what the current values are, as well as lined up some design parameters. So far I've only fiddled with potential slot layouts, so lets get some discussion going on that first. Then we can tackle base HP, and save PG/CPU for last.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Mf8XDOBw6E-UUgvEYj1VpOsXidAR9RY5vYlYj_Ulyn0/edit?usp=sharing

Proposed Design Parameters
Caldari and Gallente are to have equal total HP but inverted Shield/Armor Values
Minmatar to have lowest total HP but highest speed
Amarr to have highest total HP but lowest speed
Caldari and Amarr slot layouts are to typically be inverses of each other
Minmatar to have equal highs and lows
In cases of an odd number of slots, Minmatar will favor High slots. Typically Inverse of Gallente in these cases
PG/CPU should encourage racial tanking type
Minmatar Armor and Shields are to be similar enough to facilitate Hybrid Tanking

minmatar will always have balanced slots ALWAYS.

My issue is how do you differentiate between the alpha potential of current Large missiles vs an arty turret?

I would clarify to say that *Large Turrets* are not Anti-Infantry, HAVs are not necessarily "Not Anti Personnel" it comes down to the turret, not the vehicle itself.


As for a full rework, absolutely. Is that right for the short to medium term for Dust? iffy. I think before we even start looking at that we need to get full racial parity for the vehicle frames *at the least* and reintroduce the specialty frames for all vehicles (ideally 2 per frame). Those sorts of changes are the most easily accessible right now and probably the biggest bang for the buck right now.

I think getting pilot suits properly sorted would be the next step.

After that comes the full rework of how vehicles work on a fundamental level.

Another thing I wanted to bring up is the difference in fitting between a Basic Dropship and an Assault Dropship. In the case of the Assault, it loses 2 of its 6 slots, paired with a decrease in HP. This is in contrast to the idea that Enforcers, which are basically Assault HAVs, *gain* a slot compared to the Basic HAV. I actually agree with the ADS concept of a tradeoff, so I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea that the Enforcer is almost a direct upgrade from the standard HAV. In general I want the Basic HAV to remain viable, and not just be on the upgrade path to Enforcer and Marauder. Thoughts?

Another thing I wanted to bring up is the difference in fitting between a Basic Dropship and an Assault Dropship. In the case of the Assault, it loses 2 of its 6 slots, paired with a decrease in HP. This is in contrast to the idea that Enforcers, which are basically Assault HAVs, *gain* a slot compared to the Basic HAV. I actually agree with the ADS concept of a tradeoff, so I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea that the Enforcer is almost a direct upgrade from the standard HAV. In general I want the Basic HAV to remain viable, and not just be on the upgrade path to Enforcer and Marauder. Thoughts?

Risk/Reward is great, but I'd rather see the real cost be in the modules, with the hulls being of similar price.

Good stuff guys, can I get your thoughts on the points I laid out? Particularly how to handle the slot layouts for the HAVs?

General Summary 11/16/2014

• Amarr/Gallente and Caldari/Minmatar to use same model with different coloring
• Amarr/Gallente and Caldari/Minmatar to use same slot layout to avoid excessive stacking of one rack in specialty HAVs (2/3 and 3/s)
• Undecided on how skill progression will work yet
• Marauders to have higher defense (may that be through bonuses, more slots, or both) and lower speed/acceleration.
• Leaning towards softer defensive bonuses like increased regen and hardener duration/cooldown. Harder bonuses still on the table though.
• Enforcers to have higher attack & mobility (may that be through bonuses, more slots, or both) and lower defenses.
• Specialty vehicles to have large downsides but generally be "better" than generalist vehicles. Price to be higher but not excessively larger than General vehicles
• Typically 10% difference between Minmatar > Gal/Cal > Amarr base HP values

Well you're being overly stubborn for the sake of being stubborn. I prefer to work within the confines of what is possible to achieve the best results,rather than refusing to do anything 'out of principle'