DUST Search - Consensus on the Skill Cap

Joseph Ridgeson wrote:

750 is fine. The misunderstanding came from a complete lack of thought and/or knowledge on how boosters work. Rattatti either forgot or didn't know that Boosters don't increase SP gained from the cap but instead provide additional SP that has nothing to do with the cap. The idea was "Hey, players can triple stack their boosters to cap out MUCH faster. Let's triple the SP to let the newer player move in a bit."

Naturally, if you allow Triple Stack Boosters that let you get into making 3 million SP a week you have gone into a serious problem. Further into the thread, it is revealed that the CPM and CCP will probably be talking about changing boosters to ONLY allow you to cap out faster. The thinking being "New players can get into things faster each week", "Not everyone will hit the 750k cap a week", and "people that want help hitting the cap will get a Booster to hit the cap." This has the benefit of saying that everyone has the same capability of SP whether they spend 30 dollars a month or not a penny.

But it is still shocking that no one on the CPM raised their hand and said "Are we really going to give out 3 million SP a week?" or informed Rattati how Boosters work. Even worse is that the forums were going crazy over the change and no Dev chimed in on it to avoid the confusion rather than electing to remove it from the patch notes and come back with a "so I massively f***ed up" apology post.

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Syeven Reed T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 906	Posted - 2014.11.05 23:22:00 - [1] - Quote What would you have it as? Obviously the current 750K is immense but incorrect. However if you could choose a cap what would you make it? Keep in mind not to devalue veteran SP and forget about any role over system for now. --- On a side note I've yet to play any 1.9 due to work but all I'm hearing are good things, hows the fps in our little FPS? Word Crimes EvE - 21 Day Buddy Trial
Viktor Hadah Jr Negative-Impact Gentlemen's.Club 5837	Posted - 2014.11.05 23:41:00 - [2] - Quote 300k or 350k NEG1 EVE 21 Day Trial Selling Templar BPO's
Forlorn Destrier Havok Dynasty 2925	Posted - 2014.11.05 23:44:00 - [3] - Quote Originally, the cap was only meant as a placeholder until CCP figured out something better. To be honest, I'm not sure what they could do differently. Instead of a different cap, I would suggest brainstorming what the best alternative to a cap would be. I am the Forgotten Warhorse, the Lord of Lightning
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4625	Posted - 2014.11.05 23:44:00 - [4] - Quote I liked the idea of the 750K skill cap because of the potential for people not to hit it. To be able to play as much as they want. I like the idea of making boosters just get you to cap faster, rather than being above cap. It answers some people's "pay to win" claims as well, since then the SP ceiling would be the same for both free and paying players. But with the regular cap, I guess I could go with Viktor's 300k or 350k. Doubling it would be nice. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1132	Posted - 2014.11.05 23:47:00 - [5] - Quote is it 750? instead of 180ish correct? if its not actually 750 whats the weekly? it needs to be 1m for people under 10m lifetime, and decrease from there. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Capital Punishment. 2379	Posted - 2014.11.05 23:52:00 - [6] - Quote 750 is fine. The misunderstanding came from a complete lack of thought and/or knowledge on how boosters work. Rattatti either forgot or didn't know that Boosters don't increase SP gained from the cap but instead provide additional SP that has nothing to do with the cap. The idea was "Hey, players can triple stack their boosters to cap out MUCH faster. Let's triple the SP to let the newer player move in a bit." Naturally, if you allow Triple Stack Boosters that let you get into making 3 million SP a week you have gone into a serious problem. Further into the thread, it is revealed that the CPM and CCP will probably be talking about changing boosters to ONLY allow you to cap out faster. The thinking being "New players can get into things faster each week", "Not everyone will hit the 750k cap a week", and "people that want help hitting the cap will get a Booster to hit the cap." This has the benefit of saying that everyone has the same capability of SP whether they spend 30 dollars a month or not a penny. But it is still shocking that no one on the CPM raised their hand and said "Are we really going to give out 3 million SP a week?" or informed Rattati how Boosters work. Even worse is that the forums were going crazy over the change and no Dev chimed in on it to avoid the confusion rather than electing to remove it from the patch notes and come back with a "so I massively f***ed up" apology post. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17625	Posted - 2014.11.05 23:55:00 - [7] - Quote 750k with bonuses included in it. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Capital Punishment. 2379	Posted - 2014.11.05 23:56:00 - [8] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I liked the idea of the 750K skill cap because of the potential for people not to hit it. To be able to play as much as they want. I like the idea of making boosters just get you to cap faster, rather than being above cap. It answers some people's "pay to win" claims as well, since then the SP ceiling would be the same for both free and paying players. But with the regular cap, I guess I could go with Viktor's 300k or 350k. Doubling it would be nice. Soraya, can you answer what exactly happened during the meetings in regard to the discussion? It seems strange that no one would voice concerns about the huge amount of SP gained from boosters that would have stopped this "Oh, Boosters don't work that way?" sort of bit. However, I have seen basically EVERY CPM member make posts now about "yeah, it is too much SP and we are talking about changing how boosters work" after the Rattatti post. Just wondering if you can answer "where were those concerns before today?" If not, no biggie. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
KING CHECKMATE Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 5802	Posted - 2014.11.05 23:59:00 - [9] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: 300k or 350k ^^^^ Im not even a hardcore Dust player anymore yet i can cap in 2 days. Another viable option would be a MONTHLY cap of maybe 1.500.00 SP. Just as another idea...Thsi way you are not obligated to cap every week, but can instead miss one or 2 weeks of playing but still being able to achieve the Monthly cap in the remaining 2 weeks. The best Damage mod is a HEADSHOT....
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1613	Posted - 2014.11.06 00:20:00 - [10] - Quote Syeven Reed wrote: What would you have it as? Obviously the current 750K is immense but incorrect. However if you could choose a cap what would you make it? Keep in mind not to devalue veteran SP and forget about any role over system for now. --- On a side note I've yet to play any 1.9 due to work but all I'm hearing are good things, hows the fps in our little FPS? well we got the 750k for 1 month as of tomorrow downtime. we will see if it is too excessive.. but perhaps if it is maybe try 570k ( 190k x3 ) the next month and if that seems too high still go down to 380k (190k x2) [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7

Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1613	Posted - 2014.11.06 00:21:00 - [11] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: 300k or 350k ^^^^ Im not even a hardcore Dust player anymore yet i can cap in 2 days. Another viable option would be a MONTHLY cap of maybe 1.500.00 SP. Just as another idea...Thsi way you are not obligated to cap every week, but can instead miss one or 2 weeks of playing but still being able to achieve the Monthly cap in the remaining 2 weeks. 2 days just about and im capped and beyond on the 190k was getting maybe 100k sp a day from the bonus pool.. so the 750k sounds about right at 100k a day [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1613	Posted - 2014.11.06 00:24:00 - [12] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: 750 is fine. The misunderstanding came from a complete lack of thought and/or knowledge on how boosters work. Rattatti either forgot or didn't know that Boosters don't increase SP gained from the cap but instead provide additional SP that has nothing to do with the cap. The idea was "Hey, players can triple stack their boosters to cap out MUCH faster. Let's triple the SP to let the newer player move in a bit." Naturally, if you allow Triple Stack Boosters that let you get into making 3 million SP a week you have gone into a serious problem. Further into the thread, it is revealed that the CPM and CCP will probably be talking about changing boosters to ONLY allow you to cap out faster. The thinking being "New players can get into things faster each week", "Not everyone will hit the 750k cap a week", and "people that want help hitting the cap will get a Booster to hit the cap." This has the benefit of saying that everyone has the same capability of SP whether they spend 30 dollars a month or not a penny. But it is still shocking that no one on the CPM raised their hand and said "Are we really going to give out 3 million SP a week?" or informed Rattati how Boosters work. Even worse is that the forums were going crazy over the change and no Dev chimed in on it to avoid the confusion rather than electing to remove it from the patch notes and come back with a "so I massively f***ed up" apology post. the hard cap is 750k that is what the original intension was. but the playerbase thougth 750k weekly bonus... and the Tinfoil hats thought the 750k SP would multiply like the MCC SP.. which it will not.. it just means with boosters will we drain the 750k faster then with out :) [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4627	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:03:00 - [13] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: But it is still shocking that no one on the CPM raised their hand and said "Are we really going to give out 3 million SP a week?" or informed Rattati how Boosters work. The point here is that to be honest: I am okay if someone can get 3 mil SP a week, at an exorbitant cost. Particularly if it both is helping pay for DUST development, and a chance for new players to catch up to veterans if they want to. And I don't feel that many people are going to regularly triple-stack boosters long-term. I figure they might do it for a short time if they're trying to unlock a new role. And the cap raise was a straightforward enough item, nobody had any reason to think Rattati had a different impression on how boosters work. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Ryme Intrinseca 1962	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:12:00 - [14] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Joseph Ridgeson wrote: But it is still shocking that no one on the CPM raised their hand and said "Are we really going to give out 3 million SP a week?" or informed Rattati how Boosters work. The point here is that to be honest: I am okay if someone can get 3 mil SP a week, at an exorbitant cost. Particularly if it both is helping pay for DUST development, and a chance for new players to catch up to veterans if they want to. And I don't feel that many people are going to regularly triple-stack boosters long-term. I figure they might do it for a short time if they're trying to unlock a new role. And the cap raise was a straightforward enough item, nobody had any reason to think Rattati had a different impression on how boosters work. Was there any discussion about the fact that the game would be 3 times as much pay to win due to booster stacking (even more with instant) and four times as grindy? Those are some pretty massive red flags right there.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4627	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:28:00 - [15] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Was there any discussion about the fact that the game would be 3 times as much pay to win due to booster stacking (even more with instant) and four times as grindy? Those are some pretty massive red flags right there. As skill boosters aren't pay to win... no. And I disagree with it being "more grindy". There is no obligation to cap out every week. You can reach the same amount of SP as the old cap in even less time than you used to. If you have a particular obsession with hitting the cap every week, to be honest, that might be a medical problem. You should be playing the game because you want to, and I don't think a low skill cap should cut you off or discourage continuing to play. But I don't think you should be playing just because you haven't capped yet. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1222	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:49:00 - [16] - Quote 300k-400k seems about right to me Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)
Thumb Green Raymond James Corp 1652	Posted - 2014.11.06 01:53:00 - [17] - Quote I think ~400k would be a good spot. Syeven Reed wrote: Keep in mind not to devalue veteran SP As a vet, fck that noise. Ignoring the fact that fanfest already devalued our SP; I want newer players to catch up and be able to compete as quickly as possible so if my SP has to be devalued to the point of being on par with the Zimbabwean dollar then so be it. We don't kick ass, we kick dick and we kick it hard. Join us in our Pumpkin Crushing
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Capital Punishment. 2384	Posted - 2014.11.06 02:10:00 - [18] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: the hard cap is 750k that is what the original intension was. but the playerbase thougth 750k weekly bonus... and the Tinfoil hats thought the 750k SP would multiply like the MCC SP.. which it will not.. it just means with boosters will we drain the 750k faster then with out :) Tinfoil my ass, mate. It was pretty straightforward assessment of the situation. 1. Cap is being increased to 750k. 2. Boosters are going to stack up to three times. 3. Ergo, 750 x 2.5 = 1,875,000 potential SP a week It isn't 'tinfoil' to assume that the developers know how boosters work or that they know what they are doing. Why would they bring up a greatly increased cap AND triple stacking boosters if they didn't intend to have huge amount of SP? It would have been an assumption to go "Oh, boosters are going to change" or "Nah, it will be up to 750k SP a week with boosters." As it turns out, it was just a failure to communicate. Rattati thought Boosters only increased rate of cap while those on the CPM thought "I guess they really want new players to be able to catch up." So changing the cap to 750 had Rattati thinking "people who pay will cap out faster" and the CPM, as well as players, thought "people who pay will have a LOT more SP." "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
I-Shayz-I I----------I 4961	Posted - 2014.11.06 02:26:00 - [19] - Quote My perfect world would be sp = time played + 3(wp) Cap 380k (double 190) In other words, make the 3x sp event the default earnings. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool! List of Legion Feedback Threads!
CharacterNameWasTaken G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 195	Posted - 2014.11.06 02:50:00 - [20] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: 750 is fine. The misunderstanding came from a complete lack of thought and/or knowledge on how boosters work. Rattatti either forgot or didn't know that Boosters don't increase SP gained from the cap but instead provide additional SP that has nothing to do with the cap. The idea was "Hey, players can triple stack their boosters to cap out MUCH faster. Let's triple the SP to let the newer player move in a bit." Naturally, if you allow Triple Stack Boosters that let you get into making 3 million SP a week you have gone into a serious problem. Further into the thread, it is revealed that the CPM and CCP will probably be talking about changing boosters to ONLY allow you to cap out faster. The thinking being "New players can get into things faster each week", "Not everyone will hit the 750k cap a week", and "people that want help hitting the cap will get a Booster to hit the cap." This has the benefit of saying that everyone has the same capability of SP whether they spend 30 dollars a month or not a penny. But it is still shocking that no one on the CPM raised their hand and said "Are we really going to give out 3 million SP a week?" or informed Rattati how Boosters work. Even worse is that the forums were going crazy over the change and no Dev chimed in on it to avoid the confusion rather than electing to remove it from the patch notes and come back with a "so I massively f*ed up" apology post. so what ratatti said when he put a post out explaining what happened he did state that he thought booster made you cap faster until right before 1.9 was to be put out because another dev told him that it added to the pool basically. So he did the math and hesaid with triple stacked omegas (actives and passives) with the instant booster bonuses (because they are stacked on top of the original actives) that a player could get 6 million sp per week if they capped. That is the reason the 750k sp was ninja removed. Tl;Dr rattatti was ignorant to how boosters actually worked because no one actually told him until right before 1.9 was to be released. Its not his fault is all im saying it more falls on the other devs and the cpm to tell him about these things before people flipthe ** out.

CharacterNameWasTaken G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 195	Posted - 2014.11.06 02:57:00 - [21] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: My perfect world would be sp = time played + 3(wp) Cap 380k (double 190) In other words, make the 3x sp event the default earnings. didnt 3x sp events always have a 750k cap on it? Because everyone ive played has been 750k sp not 380 and anyway how does 190 x 3 = 380? Edit: did the math and 190 x 3 = 570 so where does everyone keep getting 380 from?
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2753	Posted - 2014.11.06 03:08:00 - [22] - Quote 360k with 2.5x WP reward "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
Lloyd Orfay SHAKING BABIES FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 177	Posted - 2014.11.06 03:16:00 - [23] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: 300k or 350k 300k is the most balanced for sure. Especially when the most important skills at level 3 get around to 225k+ or so then much higher. Besides this I find myself having to quite the game for a bit after every major SP spend to get my SP up to atleast 80k+ so it really matters. If only I kept doing that plan... If snipers and scouts were removed for a day: This would be a one-day Dust version Pax Romana.
Pvt Numnutz Prophets of the Velocirapture 1934	Posted - 2014.11.06 03:40:00 - [24] - Quote Probably 500k Master Skyshark rider Kaalaka dakka tamer
Syeven Reed T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 906	Posted - 2014.11.06 07:27:00 - [25] - Quote An interesting solution: I can see that some people feel that a 750K cap is a bit excessive and to be honest so do it, it devalues my SP making my years of game play seemingly worthless. However... And this is the juicy part, Could we not have the excessive 750K cap for people say under 10mill SP, 500K for 10-15mill and 360K for people 15mill+ ? Would this not be a solution that suits all? Word Crimes EvE - 21 Day Buddy Trial
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1485	Posted - 2014.11.06 10:10:00 - [26] - Quote Rolling cap. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
hold that Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 349	Posted - 2014.11.06 11:20:00 - [27] - Quote 250k, a milly a month is perfect
Xeriphem Glitched Connection 3	Posted - 2014.11.06 13:14:00 - [28] - Quote Since I have a real 8 hour a day job, it takes me about 4 hrs a night (Wednesday-Friday at 30-40K each) and +/- half of the day Saturday to cap out now. I start a three day booster on Wednesday and wind up with 6-8 hrs left on it when I finally cap on Saturday. At that point, I start on one of my alts with another 3 day booster and usually manage to get close to capping that one out Saturday and Sunday with time to finish on Monday if needed. I like the idea of 750k weekly cap. I would much rather see the boosters stay the same (+ 50% or +100% the total of the cap) WITHOUT the ability to stack boosters. That would be my preferred solution. I would tend to play my main character much more if that were the case. Doing it the way I suggest would prevent absurdly large amounts of extra SP per week but still give newer players a better chance of achieving goals somewhat quicker. Just my 0.2 ISK worth on this subject.
Ryme Intrinseca Eurotrash Pubstars 1965	Posted - 2014.11.07 13:17:00 - [29] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Was there any discussion about the fact that the game would be 3 times as much pay to win due to booster stacking (even more with instant) and four times as grindy? Those are some pretty massive red flags right there. As skill boosters aren't pay to win... no. With a booster you pay cash for something (SP) that indisputably makes your character more effective. It is PTW by any measure whatsoever. The only issue is whether boosters are an acceptable level of PTW or 'too much PTW'. I would say that a 50% SP boost to paying players is tolerable (the developer has to make money somehow) but 150%+, which is what 1.9 brought in, is really too much PTW. But that's just me, I realize some people aren't so PTW averse (or say 'it isn't really PTW because... reasons'). Quote: And I disagree with it being "more grindy". There is no obligation to cap out every week. You can reach the same amount of SP as the old cap in even less time than you used to. If you have a particular obsession with hitting the cap every week, to be honest, that might be a medical problem. You should be playing the game because you want to, and I don't think a low skill cap should cut you off or discourage continuing to play. But I don't think you should be playing just because you haven't capped yet. Lol@'obsession with hitting the cap every week'. I hadn't played the game for six weeks until Wednesday, and uninstalled it again yesterday. I'm basically an onlooker since I don't play the game anymore. Just find it strange that there's not more outrage about the grind aspect. So many times over the last 2 years there have been discussions about increasing the cap to 300k or 400k, with the conclusion always being that it would give no lifers too much of an advantage over ordinary players. Now all of a sudden 750k isn't grindy at all . I guess the elephant in the room is that the game is dead. The remaining players are the hardcore who like grinding, and don't even mind CCP blatantly squeezing every last dollar out of the game. Have to say, the vets I spoke to the last couple of days were happy with how the game is now, so it does seem to be a mutually beneficial situation for the players and the developer.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 4645	Posted - 2014.11.07 16:01:00 - [30] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: With a booster you pay cash for something (SP) that indisputably makes your character more effective. It is PTW by any measure whatsoever. Actually, this is false. Pay-to-Win is when paying cash gets you something you can't get for free. Aurum allows you to get skill points, and indirectly, ISK faster, but does not allow you to become superior to what free players are capable of on the battlefield. But many players seem to think paid features should be unappealing and undesirable, because they don't want to spend money. This would be a poor business model. CCP needs to sell things in a manner that makes them appealing, that makes you wish you had them, so in some hope, you might consider buying them. This is how you do free-to-play games correctly. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.



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